Netanyahu emerges weakened from Israeli elections

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu emerged weakened and facing a redrawn political map Tuesday after Israeli television projections showed a surge for a new centrist party, Yesh Atid, in Israel’s elections, making it a key element of a future coalition.

Netanyahu’s ticket combining his rightist Likud party with the ultranationalist Yisrael Beiteinu faction won 31 parliamentary seats, according to the projections, a sharp decline from the combined 42 seats held by the two parties in the outgoing 120-member legislature.

The faction remained the largest in parliament, but its shrunken size meant that Netanyahu will be more dependent on smaller coalition partners to cobble together a parliamentary majority.

In a message on his Facebook page after the projections were announced, Netanyahu said he would begin “efforts to put together the widest government possible,” indicating that centrist parties would be invited into his coalition.

The surprise result, according to the projections, was the surge to 19 seats of Yesh Atid, or There is a Future, a new centrist party. Its leader, Yair Lapid, a former television anchorman, based his campaign on a demand to end the exemption of tens of thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews from compulsory military service so they can pursue religious studies with government stipends."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israelis-vote-in-national-election-that-stirred-little-enthusiasm/2013/01/22/8507efb0-6494-11e2-b84d-21c7b65985ee_story.html

[geek tragedy]

1. Popcorn time. Can Likud/YB form a coalition with Livni and Yesh Atid?

Religious parties can't be pleased.

[Scootaloo]

2. Likely so

From our perspective and focus on the conflict between Israel and Palestine though, not a lot is going to change - Yesh Atid is all for continuing settlements, after all, and Livni's an opportunist.

Basically, think if Israel were to be run by the DLC; moderated progressivism for Israelis, and boards full of rusty nails up the ass of anyone else.

Of course, hey, maybe the left will stop screaming "Splitter!" at each other (hahahaha, when has the left ever stopped doing that, anywhere?) and pull together a coalition. Nothing's impossible... More likely they'll just meander around and the right will form a bloc and Livni will be Livni and sell out to join said bloc...

[geek tragedy]

3. He'd have to govern way to his own left if he formed a coalition with them.

What concessions will they extract?

How will Team Settler respond?

[oberliner]

5. Wrong on all counts

Yesh Atid: "two states for two peoples"

Livni has castigated Netanyahu for abandoning the two-state solution

There could not have been a more seismic change than what happened today.

[Scootaloo]

11. Oberliner, it's been twenty years.

I'm sure talks over a two-state solution will continue continuing. I'm just as sure settlers will keep settling, and occupiers will keep occupying.

There's a time limit on this shit. And it's nearly expired. Now unless you think Yesh Atid is going to step away from its own platform of protecting and keeping all those settlements, unless you think Tzipi Livni is suddenly going to figure out how to close a deal instead of yanking everyone around all day, it's not going to happen.

It's worth a hope, I suppose, but don't blow smoke up people's asses, pretending that everything is going to be all better now.

[Pirate Smile]

21. I hope so. That would be great.

[azurnoir]

6. Not much will change wrt the Palestinians

here is Yesh Atids list of priorities the I/P situation is dead last and essentially a remouthing of what we've heard for the past 20 years

Changing the priorities in Israel, with an emphasis on civil life - education, housing, health, transport and policing, as well as improving the condition of the Middle class.
Changing the system of government.
Equality in education and the draft - all Israeli school students must be taught essential classes, all Israelis will be drafted into the Army, and all the Israeli citizens will be encouraged to seek work, including the ultra-Orthodox sector and the Arab sector.
Fighting Political corruption, including corruption in government in the form of institutions like “Minister without portfolio”, opting for a government of 18 ministers at most, fortifying the rule of law and protecting the status of the High Court of Justice.
Growth and economic efficiency - creating growth engines as a way of fighting poverty, combating red tape, removing barriers, improving the transportation system, reducing the cost of living and housing costs, and improving social mobility through assistance to small businesses.
Legislation of Education Law in cooperation with teachers' unions, eliminating most of the matriculation exams, raising the differential education index and increasing school autonomy.
Enact a constitution to regulate tense relations between population groups in Israel.
Striving for peace according to an outline of "two states for two peoples", while maintaining the large Israeli settlement blocs and ensuring the safety of Israel.

This page was last modified on 22 January 2013 at 21:34.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesh_Atid

[shira]

4. So much for the doom-and-gloom forecast of a more extreme Rightwing coalition.

Good news!

Not that it would matter much to the Israel haters who believe Meretz is too rightwing and Zionist....

[Pirate Smile]

23. It's great news.

[Jefferson23]

7. I can't stand that freakin bastard, Bibi...I hope he is perfectly miserable today. n/t

[azurnoir]

8. a summary of what this really means and it will affect the 'peace process'

and reveals why some here are so giddy over the results

Some appreciate the brutal honesty of Israeli right-wing officials, as opposed to what they consider a more duplicitous rhetoric from Israel’s left and center parties, who only come knocking around election time. They believe the fall of the Left in Israel is due to a fundamental dishonesty inherent in their ideological position as well as crucial mistakes they have made during past periods of governance.

Essentially, the Left-Labor movement was the progenitor of the illegal settlements in the West Bank and Gaza to begin with, and continued to strengthen them even during the peace accords — an enterprise which marks the entire history of Israeli state building and colonization. While understanding the nature of Israel coalition politics, Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres were both involved in this contradictory behavior, before, during and after Oslo. In essence, they were strengthening the enemy of their own position as a sort of insurance policy and with the political mindset that speaking out to the settlers and peaceniks simultaneously would win the support of both. All the while, however, as the settlement movement continued to grow in strength — a strength precipitated by the Left’s financial and political support — the settlers would develop their own national leadership capable of challenging the Left from their increasingly strong base. And this is what we are seeing today: outside of the traditional right wing who have always supported settlers — Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Netanyahu, etc. — a new national leadership is emerging in the likes of Avigdor Lieberman, Naftali Bennett and others.

Furthermore, when the peace process collapsed in 2000 after the failure of Camp David, Ehud Barak and the Israeli Left proceeded to put the entire onus of blame on the shoulders of Arafat and the Palestinians, thus making the case for the Israeli Right that their was no Palestinian peace partner. This backfired on the Israeli Left by pulling the rug out from under their entire political program and shattering their support from the Israeli center. The Israeli Right capitalized on this contradiction in the leftist position, and along with the bloody years of the Second Intifada, was able to pull the Israeli center much further to the right.

..............................

Today many Palestinians on both sides of the Green Line are starting to view the two-state solution as either too far-gone or undesirable in its implications. They believe that the Israeli Right is hastening the movement away from the two-state solution, in which one state will be the inevitable alternative — even if that is not the intention of the right-wing movement. As the Israeli right wing directs its policies against them in the short term, there is a belief that it will be better in the end. If Naftali Bennett succeeds in his plan to annex Area C for example — which comprises 60 percent of the West Bank — then there will no longer be any false pretenses about the possibility of a two-state solution. The peace process veil will be lifted and the ugly face of apartheid will be apparent for all the world to see. Will the U.S. continue to support Israel then?

http://972mag.com/those-who-say-theres-no-honor-among-thieves-havent-heard-of-naftali-bennett/64461/

[Jefferson23]

9. I don't think there is much doubt the U.S. will continue to support them.

Why wouldn't they? When was the U.S. concerned about the Palestinians..I don't recall.

I am pleased to see the extreme crazy diluted a bit in Israeli politics and what I hope to see
in a public way, is a lot of infighting..out loud. How Bibi is such an ass, etc etc.

It's not that I disagree with the record your OP presents, I could not even if I wanted to.

The international community will support the Palestinians, but in the end it will still
be left to the Palestinians to resolve by their own united steadiness and courage...imho.

[shira]

10. Yeah, yeah. Same demonization. Zionists cannot be good Leftists....

Last edited Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:46 PM - Edit history (1)

Everyone else from the Left = good.

Zionist Leftists = racist, thieving, anti-Palestinian, etc...

[Scootaloo]

12. There's no such thing as a zionist leftist.

Or any other flavor like Zionist liberal, Zionist progressive, etc. Zionism is inherently counter to these approaches. It's like calling yourself a Progressive Dixiecrat, or a Leftist Friedmanite... they just cancel each other out.

"Well, what the hell are you?"
"I'm a left-wing regressive libertarian nationalist socialist black supremacist centro-anarchist"

[shira]

13. Yes, you've proven my point. Thanks.

But now that you brought it up, there's no such thing as a liberal, leftist, progressive for a future fascist, theocratic, gay and women bashing state.

That's essentially what you want replacing the dreaded Zionist state.

[Scootaloo]

16. That's what I want, huh?

Interesting. So just to make sure I get you right, my options are...

fascist, theocratic, gay and women-bashing

Or

Fascist, racist, gay- and women-killing.

Golly. All this time, I thought I was just saying that Israel could do better by ditching its racist-ass manifest destiny / Jewish Supremacism bullshit

[shira]

25. Israel isn't voluntarily going to ditch Zionism....

All the hate still seen just on forums like these goes to show Israel is as necessary now to Jews as it was before 1948.

So the alternative is...?

[Scootaloo]

26. As I've told you before; nothing is impossible.

Last edited Wed Jan 23, 2013, 08:54 AM - Edit history (1)

However, you're probably right about Israel not abandoning Zionism, though your reasons are - predictably - utterly wrong.

Israeli Jews will continue endorsing and supporting Zionism, for the same reason American whites kept endorsing and supporting Jim Crow - it makes them a special, privileged class, at the expense of another class that the system tells them is less than human and thus deserves the abuse. So long as that privilege continues with no consequence, the racist, abusive philosophy will continue being supported by those who benefit from it.

There is no alternative. For the conflict to even hopefully reach a peaceful end, the major thorn in the foot, the cause and catalyst of the conflict, must also end. That thorn is the political notion of Zionism.

And just to save you some time, no, Zionism does not equal Israel, and Israel does not equal the Jewish people.

[shira]

27. So your solution for now, given Zionism isn't going away is............?

To keep demonizing Israel?

End the occupation/settlements?

???

[Scootaloo]

33. So long as Zionism persists, so will the settlements and their expansion

You cannot support one and not the other, because they go hand-in-hand, Shira.

The choices are simple; Israel abandons a regressive, racist, and oftentimes violent political philosophy... or it preserves a regressive, racist society that often suffers violence.

You refuse the former, so you must embrace the latter. There really is no alternative here, you cannot have a race-based nationalist philosophy, over a population that is not homogeneously of that race, and expect good things to come of it.

[shira]

37. That's logically absurd and utterly false WRT the historical record

Israel has offered to end the settlements and occupation in 2 peace deals since 2000. Had the Palestinians accepted, Zionism would still "persist".

[delrem]

39. Give us all a break on the "Israel has offered to end the settlements" jivetalk.

You yourself have stated that Jews (your term) have the same right to settle in the West Bank as "Palestinians" do. All while demonstrating in post after post that you absolutely reject the Palestinian RoR because the very idea scares you shitless. I don't think you're capable of seeing the imbalance. Israel could end the settlement project at any time - but it has continued to expand settlements, even to the extent that the recently reelected Netanyahu told the world, and the Palestinian people, that he would accelerate the settlement project as *punishment* for their uppityness before the UN. Talk about a sickening rationale...

I can see that you actually believe your own bullshit, but it is ridiculously out to lunch.

[shira]

40. Why deny Gaza 2005 (uprooting all settlements) or the Clinton Plan, Olmert....?

Israel has made reasonable offers while the Palestinians have rejected them. Without even making reasonable counter-offers in return.

Why deny that?

[shaayecanaan]

41. Jesus...

Why deny that?

Because its absolute bullshit.

In fact, even Olmert says its bullshit:-

JERUSALEM — Ehud Olmert, the former prime minister of Israel, says in new memoirs that he and Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, were very close to a peace deal two years ago, but Mr. Abbas’s hesitation, Mr. Olmert’s own legal troubles and the Israeli war in Gaza caused their talks to end. Shortly afterward, a right-wing Israeli government came to power. Mr. Olmert said the two sides had agreed on key principles: the state of Palestine would have no military; an American-led international security force, not Israeli soldiers, would be stationed on its border with Jordan; Jerusalem would be shared, with its holy sites overseen by a multinational committee; and a limited number of Palestinian refugees would be permitted back into what is now Israel, while the rest would be generously compensated.

Bear in mind, this is *Olmert* that is saying this. Are you going to call him a liar as well?

The two agreed that Israel could keep some land in the West Bank on which settlements had been built, but disagreed over how much. Mr. Olmert wanted 6.5 percent of the area but would go as low as 5.9 percent; Mr. Abbas offered 1.9 percent.

In a separate interview, Mr. Abbas confirmed most of Mr. Olmert’s account. Both said they hoped at the time that American proposals would settle the differences.

“We need the Americans to bridge the gaps in a fair way,” Mr. Abbas said, speaking a week ago in Amman, Jordan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/28/world/middleeast/28mideast.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I am sick and tired of hasbarados on this board employing a "fatigue strategy" - simply repeating lies again and again in the hope that other people get sick of rebutting them.

I recall that I made an earlier suggestion that the offers that have been exchanged, and the peace proposals that have been made, should be the subject of a sticky on this forum to avoid the same mindless denials being regurgitated ad nauseam - I still think this would be a good idea.

[delrem]

42. Thank you!

Thank you so much.

[holdencaufield]

29. So, just to be clear ...

... in your mind Zionism = Jim Crow?

"Israeli Jews will continue endorsing and supporting Zionism, for the same reason American whites kept endorsing and supporting Jim Crow"


The ideal of a Jewish Homeland where Jews can be safe from the persecution they have been suffering for thousands of years is morally equivalent to the institutional discrimination of American Blacks?

Jewish self-determination isn't about class or privilege -- it's about the survival of a people. That is self-evident to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of history.

[Scootaloo]

32. You may have not noticed, but non-Jews live in Israel, and under Israeli rule

We're not talking about some Jewish-exclusive island, raised from the sea and closed to the Goyim, we're talking about a corner of the Eurasian landmass that has been continuously populated by humans since before H. sapiens blundered into it some seventy thousand years ago.

As I just explained to Oberliner, Zionism excludes non-Jews from its aegis. If it didn't, it simply wouldn't be Zionism. it's Jewish nationalism, not Jewish-and-Tuvan nationalism, not Jewish-and-Italian-and-Métis nationalism, not Jewish-and-Everyone-Else nationalism, it's just Jewish.

Now you put these two facts together, and what do you end up with? You end up with a Jewish nation basically falling on top of a bunch of non-Jewish people, who are then told to "deal with it" if they have problems with being subject to a nationalist philosophy that outright excludes them from consideration.

It's not about Jewish self-determination, nor the survival of the Jewish people - seems most Jews in the world are self-determining to stay where they are instead of moving to Israel, after all, despite eager Zionist propaganda that absolutely everyone absolutely everywhere wants to kill absolutely every Jew. At some point in history, that's what Zionism was about. And at some point in history, Communism was about equality for all people, too. Surprise, political philosophies change directions over time! Zionism is now simply the rationale that a majority uses to justify their exploitation and abuse of a minority.

[shira]

38. Israel is a liberal democracy with equal rights for all its citizens; Jews and non-Jews

Last edited Wed Jan 23, 2013, 07:04 PM - Edit history (2)

Israel's Arabs have every right Jews have. They're represented in the Knesset and could theoretically elect an Arab party into the Knesset with more seats than Yesh Atid just won. It's simple math. 20% of 120 seats is 24 total. Yesh Atid just won 19. Israel the racist Zionist entity couldn't stop that...

Also, when Arab Israelis have issues with discrimination and racism, they often find a sympathetic Judiciary ruling in their favor. These Zionist courts are well known to be very liberal/progressive. They drive Israel's rightwingers and those who are anti-Palestinian nuts.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about.

[oberliner]

15. I hope this post can serve as a reference point.

No such thing as a Zionist liberal, progressive, or leftist?

That definitely says a lot about where you are coming from.

[Scootaloo]

17. Yup. No such thing.

It's like calling yourself a liberal while preaching from the Turner Diaries.

[delrem]

18. A Zionist state is a sectarian state. By definition.

Within that specifically sectarian Zionist state one will necessarily find different political leanings, because by nature people think different and sometimes opposing thoughts, and these will variously be called "left", "right", "center" by popular pundits since pundits live ($$$) by those words; but all of these leanings will by definition be referenced 100% toward the preferred Zionist sect. Outside that bubble, those terms lack meaning.

[oberliner]

20. No it absolutely is not

Perhaps you ought to do some more reading on the subject.

Maybe start with this website:

http://www.progressivezionist.com/

[delrem]

22. OK, I'll read that site, but in the meantime I'm watching reality unfold. nt.

[delrem]

24. But I should tell you that one of your colleagues

explained to me, in a post to this group, that "progressive" was a totally negative word.

Believe me, the feedback that I get from pro-Zionist posters in this group does, in fact, influence my opinion.

[Scootaloo]

30. Yes it is, absolutely by definition

Zionism applies to Jews. Only Jews. That's the entire point of Zionism. Whether you take "Jew" as an ethnic or a religious class, they're the only ones Zionism includes, and the rest of humanity can go get fistfucked. If Zionism is including the Thai and the Swedes and the Pinjarup, it stops being Zionism. It is by its very core nature an exclusive philosophy, just as any other nationalist philosophy is.

As for your blog? I've read it, and what it is is some poor guy trying very hard to resolve two competing, contradictory ideologies, and having a difficult time of it. You see this a lot in people who are just starting to discover their political feet; ever seen a college freshman try so very hard to be a communist while still clinging desperate to being a materialist consumer? One or the other is going to give (in that case, usually the communism).

For instance, it's nice that he wants an end to the conflict, and wants it resolved through some sort of two-state deal... But he also maintains that the onus for the conflict is 100% on the shoulders of the Palestinians. He also assumes that the Israelis, being entirely pure of heart and just innocent, virginal victims without a violent or bigoted bone in their body, would happily settle it just like that. See? Jews good. Arabs evil. PROGRESSIVE ZIONISM!

And of course, like every good progressive Zionist, he seems to be really free with tossing "Kapo" and "self-hating Jew" around. While blithely dismissing all civilian casualties Israel causes as being "human shields" (because lobbing explosive ordinance with an accuracy of ~25 meters into a densely populated city would never kill innocents otherwise, of course)

Progressive zionism is the same racist, violent shit that Zionism has always been, espoused by the same racist, violent fucks it's always been espoused by, just packaged in a shiny new can with a "Gobama!" label.

[oberliner]

31. It is staggering that a person can think this way

I hope that others here can see/read these posts and can understand my amazement.

[Scootaloo]

34. Well-phrased argument. One for the archives

bravo.

[holdencaufield]

35. Amazing ...

... that someone who devotes so much of his life thinking of the Jews has absolutely no understanding of Jews.

"If Zionism is including the Thai and the Swedes and the Pinjarup, it stops being Zionism."


There are Thai Jews, and Swedish Jews, and -- for all I know -- there may be Jews among the Australian Aborigines. When people want to persecute Jews they don't stop to look at the citizenship of the Jews -- The Germans massacred German Jews, the Spanish massacred Spanish Jews and so on. The PLO has slaughtered Jews from many nations -- not just Israelis and not just in Israel. The idea that people can't see beyond the Jew to the human inside is the reason why Zionism exists.

Zionism is nothing more and nothing less than the idea that for Jews of all races and nationalities to be truly safe in a world that has, time-and-time again, led them to the slaughter -- there has to be a single place on this Earth where Jews can determine their own fate and not be reliant on the good-faith and benevolence of a host country. History has shown, over and over, that while Jews might live among a population for centuries, when things turn sour they will always be thought of as "different" in just the way you describe above.

[shaayecanaan]

43. But Jewish nationalism is good nationalism...

All other kinds of nationalism are bad, but Jewish nationalism is good.

This is because Jews in Christendom have historically been a persecuted and beleaguered minority. Therefore nationalist and irredentist impulses amongst Jewish people are defensive and justifiable, whereas if they arise amongst other people, they are offensive, imperialistic and bad.

Consequently, the displacement of Arabs in Palestine and the establishment of a state in their place was legitimate. The displacement of other peoples by other peoples is not, but in this one isolated instance, the normal rules do not apply. This is because of the holocaust. Having six million people slaughtered affords one a certain moral alibi to do things that otherwise perhaps one would not be permitted to do.

Zionism is not racism, nationalism or sectarianism. Frankly, I would prefer not to have to define it at all. I would much rather define anti-Zionism, which is a racist doctrine promulgated by latter day Nazis. Anyone who opposes Zionism is a Nazi, even in the case of Palestinians who lost their homes for the cause of Zionism. Normally, a bit of resentment on the part of such people would be understandable, but because of the special rules that apply (see above), any bitterness on the part of the Palestinians can be dismissed as anti-Jewish racism.

Israel is a Zionist state and a Jewish state. It is not a Jewish and Arab state, notwithstanding that there are in fact quite a few Arabs in it. Normally, defining a country as being for the benefit of some residents but not others would be considered sectarian, but again, the normal rules do not apply.

You see, Israel defining itself as a Jewish state is really no different from America defining itself as an American state. Okay, I tell a lie. It is profoundly different. After all, every American citizen is an American, but not every Israeli is Jewish. But I will maintain my argument to the contrary for as long as possible, largely by refusing to clarify whether Jews are a religion (in which case Zionism would be sectarianism) or an ethnicity (in which case Israel would be an ethnocracy). Also, my opponents are Nazis. It helps to reflect on this simple fact whenever my remaining liberal impulses cause me to doubt myself.

By meditating on the above, and making something of a religiously-inspired leap of faith, I can hope to persuade myself that I can be a hardcore Zionist and a good liberal all at the same time.

It helps of course that there are not very many Arabs around me.

Amen.

[shira]

28. Zionists like ourselves are no better than rightwing Jim Crow racists....

....in favor of ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc. That's what we want, dont'cha know? From Oberliner and Shira to Larry Derfner, Amos Oz, and Yitzak Rabin, J-Street, Meretz, PeaceNow, Geneva Initiative....



Fiama Nirenstein wrote a decade ago:

The basic idea of anti-Semitism, today as always, is that Jews have a perverted soul that makes them unfit, as a morally inferior people, to be regular members of the human family. Today, this Untermensch ideology has shifted to the Jewish state: A separate, unequal, basically evil stranger whose national existence is slowly but surely emptied and deprived of justification. Israel, as the classic evil Jew, according to contemporary anti-Semitism, doesn't have a birthright, but exists with its "original sin" perpetrated against the Palestinians. Israel's heroic history has become a history of arrogance.

The caricature of the evil Jew is transformed to the caricature of the evil state. And now the traditional hook-nosed Jew bears a gun and kills Arab children with pleasure.

There are no leftwing, liberal Zionists human enough to belong with the progressive, liberal party.

[oberliner]

19. Yes - indeed

A change is in the air. The pundits were wrong.

[bemildred]

36. He was never much to being with. nt