Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumHAARETZ: Ethiopian women and birth control: when a scoop becomes a smear
http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/routine-emergencies/ethiopian-women-and-birth-control-when-a-scoop-becomes-a-smear.premium-1.500341What the original television program uncovered is an insensitivity to a traditional culture and imposing Western norms in what likely began as a well-meaning attempt to help families make an easier adjustment to the shock that was ahead of them when they moved to Israel and once they arrived. The stories women told painted a picture of being coaxed and strongly convinced that they should subject themselves to a Depo-Provera birth control shot every three months, without being offered other methods of family planning. They also recounted being told in educational workshops that Israelis had “small families” and that having many children in Israel would “make their life difficult.” Some said they were led to believe they would not be permitted to emigrate if they did not submit to the shots, others said that their objections to receiving them were ignored. Some women said they weren’t aware the shots were birth control - they thought they were vaccinations, and others said their complaints about disturbing side effects were ignored.
The most hostile coverage refers inaccurately to “sterilization” - conveniently ignoring the fact that Depo-Provera is a three-month birth control injection, for which women must voluntarily go to a clinic to receive the shots. It is insulting to the intelligence of Ethiopian women to believe that they did this for years at a time against their will. Certainly, if there was a nefarious plot to stop them from having babies, there would have been a more efficient way to do it.
I believe the women who told their stories to Gal Gabbai. I also believe that the vast majority of the Ethiopian women who received Depo-Provera were aware it was birth control and received it willingly, wanting to be in control of deciding when to get pregnant. And some of them - it is unclear how many - preferred being injected at a clinic rather than having to take pills daily in the presence of other family members - husbands or mothers or in-laws - who might disapprove of that decision. I also believe that those who did not want to receive the shots and truly wanted to become pregnant were smart enough to stop receiving them. At least some of the drop in these birthrate is attributable to access to birth control and control over their childbearing that these women wanted.
What is likely true - and needs to be urgently corrected, is that those who do want to practice birth control understand that there are alternative methods that are safer with fewer side effects, and that no ethnic group, native or immigrant is ever systematically given Depo-Provera again.
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JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)the percentage drop was figured from, from the birthrate in Ethiopia to the birth rate of Ethiopian women in Israel? Or from the birthrate of Israeli women to some lower birthrate?
But this does clarify that Depo Vera must be injected every three months. It is absurd to think that women would return every three months for an injection without wanting to do so. And it is natural that a woman coming from a country with an extremely high birthrate, if given a choice, would probably choose to have a somewhat smaller family.
The fanatical anti-Israel sentiment on DU really showed itself in an earlier thread in which DUers virtually danced at the the thought of being able to say "I gotcha' to Israel."
Ridiculous. Those DUers who jumped to unwarranted conclusions about this need to learn more critical reading skills.
No hard feelings. We all make mistakes.
shira
(30,109 posts)I don't expect to see it.
It was an outrageous claim and no amount of reason or logic penetrated those who are so eager to believe the most vile & whacky conspiracy theories WRT Israel.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Uh-huh. I don't think they're the obsessed ones....
What's very clear is yr intent on not admitting that Israel's treatment of Ethiopian women was racist and they should have been given an opportunity to give informed consent, just like every Israeli women is. Authorities have admitted to it and taken steps to make sure the practice stops, so the head in sand attitude of you and one other here is a bit bizarre...
shira
(30,109 posts)...every 3 months for years on end, not knowing what the hell they're doing (whether they want contraceptives or not). Imagine a women who wants children renewing DP injections every 3 months. Are you serious? If the intent was malevolent by Israel, then those sneaky Israelis must have figured out a way to make women voluntarily do something they didn't want for years on end. Is this a new Israeli super- weapon like the penis shrinking ray gun, or my favorite, sex gum that makes Palestinian teens horny? There's blaming Israel for everything and then there's the ridiculous. This is a ridiculous accusation.
But seriously, like the OP demonstrates:
So in order to believe this cockamamy story, you have to believe Ethiopian women are dumb as hell.
You know what that means WRT your position, right? It's not good. It's what you're accusing me of, and anyone "defending" Israel WRT these stupid charges.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)See, I'm not the one who holds rather racist and decidedly unliberal positions on immigrants. I realise that having had it explained to you repeatedly that yr claim that I think women's partners must be informed if they take birth control is both not true and offensive, yr now coming from another angle with a rousing rendition of 'Violet Is A Racist!!' Do you think the vast majority of DUers reading this thread believe a word you say anymore?
Also, yr the only one calling Israel 'malevolent' and 'sneaky'. I've pointed out before that such practices have happened elsewhere in the world and always by RW govts who aren't that fond of immigrants. Yr only response to that was to whine that the extreme RW Israeli govt isn't really an extreme RW govt, and you ignored the obvious fact that such practices are ugly and nothing anyone who wants to be seen as genuinelly LW would even attempt to defend on any level. But saying that doesn't mean I think Israel is malevolent or sneaky. I'm aware some people like to demonise Israel or in yr case demonise the Palestinians by ascribing as many negative and dark descriptive words to them as possible, but I don't play that game. You might want to go find someone else who does so you can be evenly matched...
shira
(30,109 posts)You did answer and I didn't get it. I couldn't figure it out before.
Lightbulb!
My bad.
=============
You brought up RW Israeli government. You brought up coercion and force. How racist and misogynist this practice is by Israel.
It's none of the above and can only "work" if Ethiopian women who want kids have zero intelligence. They would have to continue to voluntarily renew their DP every 3 months for years on end even if they want kids. This is absurd and an absolute insult to the intelligence of Ethiopian women.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)And saying that you hadn't got it. I've read things before and not gotten it immediately, so I know it happens. Just for the record, I'm strongly pro-choice, which is why I was so offended...
I've also decided that I'm not going to discuss this issue with you anymore. I can't see it going anywhere pleasant, and I could get frustrated, forget there's a person on the other end of yr posts, and say something I'd regret and which shouldn't be said. You can take that as a sign of weakness if you want, though I see it as being sensible.
I know you never travel or post outside the I/P group, so I thought I'd share a link to a thread in Meta that's about this particular thread in case you want to head up there and say something to the people who are talking about yr posts in this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240213119
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)While it's not hitting the high numbers I've seen when it comes to edits from you before, there's something kind of manic about that, imo.
Tell you what. How about you drop me a PM when you've finally edited yr 'work'. Then I can come and reply to it knowing yr not editing things out and adding things that I haven't seen...
shira
(30,109 posts)...if you have anything else to contribute, other than insults, feel free to contribute.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Read the following link. Its in Hebrew, but you can use google translate, or whatever. Pages 15, 22 and 23.
http://www.cbs.gov.il/www/publications/ethiopion_population/pdf/h_print.pdf
The fertility rate was initially 5.2 and remained there for some time. In the 1990s, it then began a dramatic and sustained fall. From 1996 to 1999 alone, it fell from 4.6 to 3.9.
A fifty percent fall would mean that Ethiopian women have gone from 5.2 births per woman to 2.7 births, which is below the national average of three.
Some women have reported that they felt coerced, but I have no doubt that many took it willingly. There are probably a lot of women out there who would be very content to have fewer children.
On the other hand, the fertility rate for ultra-orthodox Jewish women is 6.5, much higher than the Ethiopian fertility rate ever was.
Now, there are probably many women in that community who might prefer to have fewer children. But the state of Israel is not interested in curbing their fertility, so you will not find them being aggressively counseled to take Depo Provera. The State of Israel is only concerned with curbing the fertility of Arabs and Blacks.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I read an additional article on a Haaretz article that pointed out that the women had to return for additional Depo Provera treatments every 3 months. I still don't think we have all the facts on this. The rate of 3.7 children is not low.
In contrast, the average birth rate of the nine young people of child-rearing age in an extended family in which I know all the young people of child-rearing ages is 2.0. The youngest of those of child-rearing age is 25. So 3.7 is not a low fertility rate for a developed, Western country.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)For example, West-Central African-born mothers accounted for 2.2% (15816) of all births in England and Wales in 2010:-
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-223048
West-Central Africans comprise 0.7% of the population of England and Wales.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/key-statistics-for-local-authorities-in-england-and-wales/rft-table-qs203ew.xls
These migrants are, on the whole, younger than the general population. And yes, you would normally expect those fertility rates to decrease within a couple of generations to the average.
But Israel has somehow managed to reduce African fertility rates much more markedly than has been the experience of African migrants in the UK.
shira
(30,109 posts)shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)The women have complained that they were coerced, that they were railroaded into receiving the treatment, that the health professionals made little or no attempt to gain their informed consent.
Statements such as:-
are just an elaborate way of blaming the victim.
Many of these women were poor, uneducated and vulnerable. If a nurse gives them an injection and books another appointment for three months' time, perhaps it was not surprising that many of them would comply.
From Isha's report:-
Mangoli, the manager of the WIZO organization in Bnei-Brak and an advocate for
the rights of the Ethiopian community in Israel, including the rights of children. Ms.
Mangoli began suspecting that there is a birth-reduction policy for the Ethiopian
community after learning that 57 families had had only one child in the last 3 years
(as for 2008). Following many cases in which women of Ethiopian origin complained
to her that they are suffering from pregnancy-like syndromes (morning sickness,
swollen abdomen, fatigue, etc,), she accompanied them to a gynecologist in Pardes-
Kats' Clalit HMO. Thus she was exposed, for the first time to the fact that once in
three months they had received birth control injections- Depo Provera. After insisting
on getting an explanation, the clinic manager told her that his staff had received
instructions to administer Depo Provera injections to these women, but refused to
reveal from whom they had received these instructions. Ms. Mangoli testified that in
conversation, the women had told her that they were not warned that Depo Provera
has side effects, and were not introduced to alternative contraceptive methods,
including birth control pills.
http://www.isha.org.il/upload/File/%D7%93%D7%A4%D7%95%20%D7%90%D7%A0%D7%92%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%AA.pdf
shira
(30,109 posts)That maybe there's a big cover-up?
If your answer is no, do you believe racism was the prime factor behind all this?
==========
BTW, that excerpt doesn't show these women wanted children and were not aware they were on birth control. They wanted to be on birth control.
I'm thinking at worst there are a few bad apples in the organization. Maybe they're culturally insensitive, tried imposing western norms. Maybe some were racists. I don't believe in the stupid, grand conspiracy charge to sterilize another race.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)There was a shared cultural belief that these women were incapable of understanding birth control and so the State needed to do it for them. As such, there was no need for a formal conspiracy.
And yes, racism was the prime factor. A generation ago, Mizrahi Jews had gone through the same thing:-
http://www.isha.org.il/upload/File/%D7%93%D7%A4%D7%95%20%D7%90%D7%A0%D7%92%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%AA.pdf
shira
(30,109 posts)I can see condescension, insensitivity, cultural imperialism, etc...
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)The article contained something like three paragraphs of vague language, and we are supposed to draw conclusions from that. Another article pointed out that the women had to return for the treatment every three months. If I wanted to be pregnant and noticed I wasn't and didn't speak the language (I've been in places where I could not speak the language), I think I would bring someone with me to see a doctor. This story makes sense to a certain extent but then beyond that, it doesn't.
In general, people of European decent are having fewer children than people of other ethnic groups in part because of the aging of the European segment of the population. That is one of the reasons that we bring immigrants to the US now -- because they are likely to be younger when they come and fill a gap in our demographics.
There may be racism in Israel. I don't know.
But unless things have changed a lot in the UK since I lived there in the 1970s, there definitely is a lot of racism in the UK. I remember a boss who scolded me because I, as an American assuming racial equality to be the norm, invited a delegation of businessmen from Nigeria to come in the front door of our office in downtown London. It may be similar in Israel. I really don't know.
The United States is not far enough in terms of racial equality, but we are a lot further along than many other countries so it would not surprise me if the Depo Provera was administered, at least in the early years, based on race.
But I have difficulty believing that the practice could be continued for very long on very many women. There may be some other factors at play -- perhaps exclusion in other respects led women to want fewer children. I'm thinking for example of inadequate housing or income or things like that. It's just hard for me to think that women who wanted children would not eventually figure out that something was going wrong, ask and then discontinue the treatments.
I say that as one who lived in a country in which I did not speak the language -- and actually had a baby there. This story does not make sense.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)The Grady clinic scandal in the US involved poor white and Black women being administered Depo Provera without their consent. Depo Provera has been used to limit Black fertility in South Africa. Aboriginal women in Australia were also subject to protectionist policies that were intended, in large part, to contain them and keep them from having children.
Israel's policy in controlling Ethiopian fertility is no different from what many other nations have attempted in relation to their own disadvantaged minorities. Ironically, had there not been such an attempt by people to deny that there were racist motivations behind this policy I think that it probably would have come and gone without much fuss.
I don't think Israeli people are any worse than any other people in terms of their inclinations towards racism. But I don't think that they are any better, either.
I do think that many of the Israel advocates on this forum hold a romantic view of Israel, and tend to subscribe to a belief that Israel is a "light unto the nations", and that it is the most moral country in the world, and that even if Israel does bad things, they are never as bad as when other countries do them. They are reluctant to ascribe racist motives to Israel, even in circumstances where they would be willing to do so if another country was involved.
Nothing new there. Most Americans believe in American exceptionalism, the same as Israelis believe in their own exceptionalism. The Americans believe that they are the leaders of the free world, the bastion of freedom and hope and peace and equality and all the rest of it.
I suppose thats why I was interested to read your reflections on the UK. One thing to remember is that 60% of Black men in the UK have a white wife. Admittedly, there are less Black men in the UK to go round, but still, I think that there is much more squeamishness in the US regarding intermarriage than there is in the UK.
As for racism in Israel:-
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)racist than other Americans. On the other hand, because we pride ourselves on our diversity, I suppose in that respect we might be very exceptionalist.
"I don't think Israeli people are any worse than any other people in terms of their inclinations towards racism. But I don't think that they are any better, either."
Exceptionalism is pretty universal. I will never forget and elderly woman I met in a small European country who told me quite earnestly that she believed that her tiny village that no one outside of her country ever heard of was "the center of the spiritual world."
It's always the ego.
But then, on the other hand, mistakes are also made. Apartheid is no mistake, but doctors who cannot communicate with a patient due to a language problem, may not think to get a translator -- and then it is too late. As I said, I had a baby in a country in which I did not speak the language. To this day, I'm not sure I understood all the choices I was offered with regard to very personal medical issues.
If a doctor outside the US can't understand what you are saying and knows you can't understand him, in my experience, the doctor just does what he thinks is best.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Thanks for sharing Allison Sommer's blog thoughts. She clearly agrees with you.
shira
(30,109 posts)....who ought to be opining her extremity for a real racist, misogynist publication like Arutz Sheva, right?
Oh yeah. Sure.
Now here's a real stinker for you from the apologists. Haaretz itself had to retract from their original story as the original subheading was....
They changed it to...
At the bottom of the article it now says...
CORRECTION: The sub-headline of this article was changed due to an editing error.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)...which clearly mirror your own. So it's a self-serving blog post. I'm not discussing it's content one way or another, otherwise.
shira
(30,109 posts)They're backing down.
You think this OP is coincidence, considering Haaretz' first attempt was misleading?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)a blog to pick their spirits up.
delrem
(9,688 posts)which affords a certain credibility that, to some readers, make it absolute truth.
Except when editorials/opinions covered by Haaretz don't agree with their own.
In that case Haaretz clearly has an agenda and is engaged in spin.
I don't see why some blog opinion should be accorded a status higher than *my* opinion, that the blog opinion can serve as an OP but *my* opinion can't.
What is it that makes the blog opinion superior?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Usually, if I post to a blog, it is to raise an issue or show concern for that issue. I don't always hold that position as gospel.
Researched news stories, by reporters, IMHO (I also take that with a grain of salt depending on the source) hold a little more validity when it comes to truth. Not always, cough...Fox Noise...cough, but I expect more from reports as being factual than a blog post.
I'm not knocking blogs or twitter since they can be useful as I have previously intimated, but I would also suggest that some will use blog posts in the same way as they use links to heavily slanted right wing news orgs to counter the truth of reliable center news outlets.
So what makes the blog opinion superior? Nothing. It is a tool, and when used it the right hands it is useful. When used in the wrong hands it is a tool to subvert and cloud the truth.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)They call them apologists. And they are pretty well ridiculed for their spin on what happened.
But spinning now...well that is fine because it supports a government and actions some people actually like and are behind.
shira
(30,109 posts)From the OP at Haaretz....
The story of the dramatic drop in the birthrates of the Ethiopian Israeli community over the past decade and why it happened was a story that needed to be told. Those on the ground who work with the Ethiopian community who first observed and researched the phenomenon and Gal Gabai, the excellent television journalist whose show “Vacuum” broke the story to the Israeli public, deserve credit for pulling the story out of the realm of rumor and shadows.
However – as in the game of telephone, when the more a story is repeated, the more warped and distorted it becomes – the international coverage of this scandal is transforming a tale of insensitivity, cultural condescension and, yes, perhaps a certain level of racism, into some kind of villainous genocidal plot of sterilization aimed at ethnic and racial cleansing.
What the original television program uncovered is an insensitivity to a traditional culture and imposing Western norms in what likely began as a well-meaning attempt to help families make an easier adjustment to the shock that was ahead of them when they moved to Israel and once they arrived. The stories women told painted a picture of being coaxed and strongly convinced that they should subject themselves to a Depo-Provera birth control shot every three months, without being offered other methods of family planning. They also recounted being told in educational workshops that Israelis had “small families” and that having many children in Israel would “make their life difficult.” Some said they were led to believe they would not be permitted to emigrate if they did not submit to the shots, others said that their objections to receiving them were ignored. Some women said they weren’t aware the shots were birth control – they thought they were vaccinations, and others said their complaints about disturbing side effects were ignored.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)this is one of the reasons it is generally considered a last resort:-
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-drawbacks-staying-depo-provera-long-term-1909220.html
polly7
(20,582 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)"O'REILLY: What's your point of view on it (Abu Ghraib)?
COULTER: I think that -- it was a bad thing, it's six malefactors in an army that is 1.4 million strong and if I hear about it again I'm going to leap out of my skin. This is the media trying to demoralize America. This is the new Tet Offensive.
O'REILLY: I agree with you. I think it's been overreported. But you aren't diminishing the horror of the situation?
COULTER: Of course not. But no one is, so what are they debating about? Why am I not hearing four weeks about Pat Tillman? How come every night going through Pat Tillman's life rather than hearing about these six or seven...
O'REILLY: Well, Berg, Berg didn't get the media exposure he should have gotten.
COULTER: It's outrageous that the media will not shut up about this.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121262,00.html#ixzz2JbKMA8IJ
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