Gaza Youth Flee Harsh Life To Israel

[oberliner]

Mohammad Abu Huzayen dropped out of elementary school to look for a job to support his nine-member family. Frustrated with the lack of opportunities, the 17-year-old from Al-Nusayrat refugee camp in central Gaza turned to an unexpected option: escaping to Israel.

Along with three friends of roughly the same age, Abu Huzayen planned to take the risk of sneaking into Israel in February. The motivation of the four friends was to seek a modest life after losing hope finding it in their besieged enclave. The teens were sure they would either be able to sneak in or get arrested; both options were welcome to them.

“We wanted anything outside Gaza, even if it was jail. It’s not even a life here,” Abu Huzayen told Al-Monitor.

The teens started the journey by crossing the eastern Gaza border in an early morning in February Abu Huzayen cannot precisely recall. They walked for more than a kilometer into Israel, thinking that they had successfully made it across, before being spotted by Israeli troops, who hastily detained them.

“When the Israeli soldier was handcuffing me, I was still happy that I would be able to start a new phase of my life away from my miserable life here,” Abu Huzayen recalled.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/06/gaza-israel-economic-migrants.html#ixzz2VOSnzkGl

[delrem]

1. Go figure.

Gazan youth (recall, 75% of Gazans are refugees from ethnic cleansing), who suffer dramatically from depression and despair of their situation, with no hope for a future when subjected to a total siege on their economy and social structure (they can't even visit their cousins in other areas of Palestine, to say nothing of any who live in Israel), sometimes are moved to flee.

It's too bad that Israel demands it all, including the Gazan gasfields, so Gazans have no chance to profit from their land. It's too bad the Palestinian economy as a whole is under siege, while Israel divides it up and, like Hannibal Lector cutting into a brain, parcels out how and how not Palestinians might profit from land and resources in Area C, even while strengthening its imprint in "the settlements".

All of this is too bad, and clearly it's the Palestinians who're at fault. They're animals who use their own children as "human shields", and so on - or so I read on DU. Well, hopefully those Gazan teens, fleeing to Israel, are treated as the desperate refugees that they are.

[pelsar]

2. two options: reading comprehension problem or more likely...

you have an ideological viewpoint, that has little tolerance for other viewpoints and must define them as extreme

All of this is too bad, and clearly it's the Palestinians who're at fault. They're animals who use their own children as "human shields", and so on - or so I read on DU


most telling of all however is your tolerance for others who disagree with you.... as you call us: losers, tell us to "shut up" etc.
and of course the classic being the "disappearing act" when the discussions turn to actual reality on the ground, the real options with the real consequences

[delrem]

3. Well, OK. It doesn't make sense as a response, but OK.

[shira]

10. You pretend to engage in dialogue here...

However, your modus operandi here is either of 2 things or both...

1. You resort to total ad hominem (loser, shut up, Pam).

2. You squirm and then later disappear from any discussion in which your views are questioned or countered with facts.

Not to mention that you spew the Hamas, David Duke, extreme rightwing Judeophobic POV here...

[Shaktimaan]

7. How are they refugees?

They were all either born there or in a different part of Palestine, right? You have to come from one state and go to a different one to be a refugee.

Do you know what the word refugee even means?

[King_David]

11. You read in DU Palestinians

"They're animals"

Really ?

Which DU member said that?

Link it up .

[azurnoir]

116. here ya go links

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=26865

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=16631

aren't you glad you asked

[azurnoir]

4. How sad that life in Gaza has been rendered so hopeless

Last edited Thu Jun 6, 2013, 03:48 AM - Edit history (1)

when oh when will those Gazans ever learn and rise against Hamas as we're told is part of Israel's mission in the strangling Gaza economically for the past 6 years, oh wait I forgot that line has been altered it's all Egypt's fault every last bit of it, no wait that's been kicked to the curb too now the popular line is that this is what the people of Gaza wanted and deserve when they held an election they voted in Hamas as their sole leaders, except that it is untrue that the people of Gaza elected Hamas to be their ruling party but some here rely on the memory hole effect and depend that the casual reader will forget that almost exactly 6 years ago Hamas took over Gaza by force via a coup

[pelsar]

5. actually the left/progressives and bush get a lot to blame

but nobody involved gets off scot free here

but the base mistakes for those that actually care about civil rights and human rights:
pressure to leave gaza, destroy the settlements etc ...before there was a democratic replacement
pressuring for elections when the society had limited choices (hamas or PA)

but clearly most really didnt care, since civil rights, etc was not relevant, nor was security, nor was stability nor was how the gazans actually live...it was all about nationalism.....

the situation now for those how arent tainted by ideology and can see clearly is that the situation does not have a single answer:

1) from an israeli point of view....its rather simple: they had an initial chance to build upon the withdraw and instead of taking advantage of it, for whatever the reasons (its not that relevant at this point) for a better lives, they decided to take advantage of it and use it to increase attacks upon israel. And it wasn't just once or twice..its been since.

there is a price to pay for trying to kill us, it doesnt really matter who is in charge, be it hamas or PA....its a strategy that apparently hasn't changed much over the years and until it does....they most likely will have limited options.
_______________________________

2) For a liberal (not progressive) the challenge is how to change their govt, their society...for that there is no real answer

3) For the progressive, apparently the type of govt is not relevant, its how to give the their govt further power over their own society.....a stable govt, civil rights, peace with israel, womens rights, etc not being very high upon the list.

I could ask you bluntly to list in some kind of order what you think is the most important, but i don't believe your actually write it out...but it would be fun to see in actual writing

[azurnoir]

6. your just so unique

Bush and the Left are to blame eh? what exactly has the Left done?

well we saw the Israeli POV last November and it was signed in April of this year

as to the rest I think most of the 'Left" at least here would love to see Hamas out of office-preferably by election however that does not justify what Gaza has been reduced to

[pelsar]

8. but i'm not unique at all...not politically

Last edited Thu Jun 6, 2013, 05:45 AM - Edit history (4)

i personally am glad we did (left gaza), and am thankful that sharon was the PM to handle it...but it was intl pressure (left) on israel to leave and destroy settlements, combined with Bushs push for elections and what you get in the end is a hamas govt that has little to do with democracy, nor peace nor stability, and gazans lives in the gutter.

The "left" may prefer a not to see hamas in govt but if they help put forth the machinery, the process that actually puts hamas into power than i would say their "preferences for not having hamas in power is pretty low on the list......helping them get in and then saying "oops" we didnt mean for that to happen, is fine if you live far away, less so if your getting shot at by them. But then i dont think there are any regrets from the left/progressive side.

you can confirm this is you like.....i've learned from Ken, its not the way people actually live, its the "process" to democracy that is whats most important and every step taken, no matter which way it goes is a step towards the goal.....and it doesnt matter how many people suffer or get killed in the process (the 500,000+ dead in the creation of Pakistan and continued warfare with india is acceptable)

In fact given the lefts enthusiasm for khommeni, for elections in egypt, and other places that dont have solid democratic movements, i would say the lefts record shows very clearly that theocratic and secular dictatorships are infact acceptable to them. One can only say "ooops" we didnt know that would happen or we "prefer" it not to happen, only so many times before a patten emerges..and it has.

the citizens of any society are the pawns of their govt...thats why democracies make for better govt and which is why they should be demanded of every country and why no country should be supported or created that doesnt have democratic values....otherwise the citizens are hostages of their govt (as it is in gaza)

that is why what bush did and left supported was so dumb..they simply help create a situation where the gaza citizens are hostages to what hamas wants, and israel is not going to let hamas import larger and more powerful weapons to use to against us....

its a zero sum game....they get more freedom, we get larger missiles on our heads....

[azurnoir]

13. well nno you aren't unique politically that's for sure

but really we're discussing today not 34 years ago and if memory serves Olmert who Israel's PM at the time had a hand in forcing elections right along with Bush, and Bush left office because time was up he had no choice

[pelsar]

14. my opinion of olmert....

is lower than what i think of.....every israeli politician thats ever been elected .....

but gaza is not 34 years ago..its still fresh and the lesson of gaza, the lesson of the 'arab spring" is simple: dictatorships are very unstable and getting rid of one, without a democratic foundation, does not mean you get a better more stable society, while killing thousands in the process....more so, the people are hostages to all govts that are not democratic.

but that is not disturbing enough for the progressives to push for "self-determination/nationalism, knowing full well that democracy is not going to a product for so many of these revolts without foundations, education and an acceptance of western values (unless one is so blinded by ideology). and the people will not have civil rights and in fact will be hostages to a govt that will do what it wants without regard for its citizens.

so obviously when progressives claim "human rights" I'm not impressed.

[azurnoir]

21. because most progressives do not pre-judge

Arab spring is not yet over either

[pelsar]

34. progressives constantly pre judge...they're just selective

but if when you say "pre judge" they cover their ears, eyes and ignore the values of any particular group and then are 'surprised" that the group actually means what they say and does what they mean...well yes that is a rather unique value that i do find within the progressive community. A fascinating concept that i admit i dont understand.

i wouldnt call it a good thing though....


yes i know the arab spring isn't over...thats the beauty of all religions, that rainbow at the end, be it the messiah, JC returning, the 5th iman or the nirvana of a perfect progressive utopia its always "just around the corner"...


Pakistan/Inda: over 500,000 dead but that was just the frst step, correct...they too will see a real democracy any day now...Iran, they're on their way since Khommeni stepped in (while they still hang homosexuals).

Syrias spring is just getting started, whats 70,000 dead compared to the Iran/Iraq war of over a million and they would have been doing better but the US interfered with iraqs process...

Lybia, thank god NATO stepped in and bombed them from 15,000 ft, thats always a good start for that progressive movement...we dont even know how many people died so that shari law could be emplaced, but its really for that progressive society that any day now will appear.....

but they're all on they're way to that western progressive utopia.... you just have to ignore what those people are actually saying and doing to believe that. Thats not "pre-judging" thats putting your head in the sand.

[azurnoir]

35. "but they're all on they're way to that western progressive utopia.... "

no most are probably not but that will be seen

I love to keep you talking though because answer one question who has the more commonly found Israeli opinion where Arabs and a Palestinian State are concerned - you or Israeli?

[pelsar]

37. me probably

Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2013, 06:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Israeli is a post zionist which puts her in the minority of a minority party (meretz), i believe , though i dont actually know the numbers, so i would put her as less in common with the general population than myself.

_____

no most are probably not but that will be seen
so at how many dead, wounded, lives ruined do you finally say...well i guess they really arent going toward that progressive utopia.....20 years? 30 years? 500,000 dead?

__
and just to continue the "believer line"
but if your such a believer, perhaps the settlement enterprise is simply one more step toward a single state, an arab take over of israel with full RoR and then, the continuation to your progressive utopia...so perhaps you shouldnt be so against the settlements?

[Israeli]

42. really pelsar ...

Israeli is a post zionist which puts her in the minority of a minority party (meretz), i believe , though i dont actually know the numbers, so i would put her as less in common with the general population than myself.

and you vote for who ?

Ref :
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?21793-Israeli-2013-Elections-Who-would-you-vote-for

ready for mine?...My wife still can't figure me out, she says i talk right wing yet, here i am voting for meretz!

its quite simple actual, over the years meretz, no matter who has been in power, actually do things in terms of their social agenda....not just playing politics but do stuff. One example was when (years back) yossi sarid ask for and got to be the minister of education, which nobody wants, used his resources to improve the education system in ofakim and other development towns, and he was well thanked by the local govts....who of course vote likud. The point being, they actually follow their principles and do stuff, with their limited resources on the social issues, of which i agree with them, whether they are in power or not......

kinda makes me an israeli liberal...... (no relation to the western mutant form of 'liberal&quot

Of course you never knew that Shulamit Aloni is a post-zionist or that Uri Avnery is or that Gideon Levy and Amira Hass are .... I could keep going

Your wife cant figure you out ???? !!!!
Then I guess its best I stop trying to figure you and shira out , both of you state you support Meretz and neither of you have a clue ....

[pelsar]

43. the question was of numbers....

Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:18 AM - Edit history (2)

i believe i'm more "mainsream' in my political view point than you are.
__________

no i dont really follow Aloni, nor Avnery nor Levy so much since i dont agree with them... ...i also dont follow a whole lot Moshe Feiglin, Shelli and many others. In general i have a relativly low opinion of professional politicians and do not follow their every move, nor do i worship them as knowing more than me.

In terms of Meretz i was/am a bigger fan of Amnon Rubinstein of Shinui that joined with Meretz, if your looking for some kind of connection from me to Meretz.

I vote for Meretz....doesnt mean i support every one of their platforms...i also like somethings that likud has done, what Begin has done, what Rabin has done and i've also disagreed with them just as well and i listened very carefully to Naftali Bennett this time around.....

________________
neither of you have a clue ....

i would say i 've got more than just a clue.....having my own business as well as having to serve in the combat reserves means i have to face first hand the results of the various economic and political policies, without any kind of kibbutz or union (histradrut) to protect me from the various economic/family hits i've taken....which are direct results of the various policies of the govts over the years...

i 've got far more than "a clue" of policies and how they affect us... i don't know the situation of your kibbutz, but i do know those on Maagan Michael have an economic/social security that I can only fantasize about, a economic policy change barely touches their every day lives.

[Israeli]

45. yet we both vote Meretz ...

maybe I should move to Hadash ?

You have no idea of our numbers ...nobody does pelsar.... until we have our own party .
We were hoping Avrum Burg last elections ... didnt happen .

Not to say wont happen next elections ...

i believe i'm more "mainsream' in my political view point than you are.

oh you are pelsar.... you are definitely more "mainsream" than I am .

[pelsar]

46. no i dont think you should....

i think you would have more of an effect within Meretz than Hadash on the country. Meretz has a relatively good reputation within the country and a solid position.... whereas Hadash far less

the post zionists such as yourself shouldnt really have a problem with me and my types...we are very much part of israel, disagreeing/tolerating us is not a bad thing, its the essence of a successful society.

the countries history (the kibbutz movement) is based on fierce arguments, but with a bottom line of making this place work despite the disagreements, of tolerating and working with those that we disagree with, what we dont understand.

[Israeli]

50. I almost did last elections ...

..... the Right are pushing us further Left pelsar
been that way since Rabin's assassination .

the post zionists such as yourself shouldnt really have a problem with me and my types...we are very much part of israel, disagreeing/tolerating us is not a bad thing, its the essence of a successful society.

I dont have a problem with anyone that votes Left pelsar , or even for the idiots that voted for Yair Lapid .... my problem is with the Right especially the religious right wing .

[pelsar]

54. actually i do....those who voted for lapid

if anything in israel most of the major politicians have some kind of past we can look at, examine, agree or not, but at least we have an idea of who they are..... Lapid comes in as a journalist with no real experience in runing anything....

worse, his whole party was built on neophytes....i have a real problem with voting in people to run large govt agencies that have no experience for me to look at to know who they are and what they can do...

and i seriously wonder about those who vote in such people.....

[delrem]

36. Just noting: your prejudices w.r.t. the term 'progressive'

When you declare that some monstrous action was "progressive", do you mean that in the same way as when you've declared yourself to be a "liberal Zionist", and do a decky dance with ms. illiberally liberal?

[pelsar]

38. you can clear it up....

Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2013, 06:18 AM - Edit history (2)

i define the "progressive" ideals as i've learned from here...no where else. if i were to define it, i would say its an elitist, ethnocentric ideal that belittles the "non believers" (you a good example of that). Where it claims concern for human lives its more concerned with "justice and is far less concerned with actual consequences of when its applied (Pakistans/Indias, 500,000 dead, khommenis iran, etc)

Its one of those religious type beliefs that claim "if there is justice" (as defined by a select few of "elders?&quot than happiness/peace/security must follow. And if it doesnt, it means there was no justice yet and one must keep on working for that justice...

this is the classic religious belief that as far as i know, all religions contain. If the messiah hasn't come yet, it means the people haven't lived up to it standard.


btw decky dance is that some kind of insult? should I be insulted? is its a slur that i dont know about....please explain so I'll have a better idea of how to respond.

[delrem]

56. That's sounds crazy.

[pelsar]

63. maybe..but it explains a lot....

Last edited Sat Jun 8, 2013, 06:42 AM - Edit history (1)

lets take a look at gaza:
israel has a problem with gaza and apparently gaza has a problem with israel...there is shooting going on between the two with civilians being caught in the middle

Gaza does not have the same problem with Egypt however. Infact there is a tremendous amount of trade going on between gaza and egypt as the trucks roll into rafah during the light of day and unload all of their supplies, be it animals, military hardware, cement, building materials, food, fuel, cars into the tunnels and into Gaza. Egypt now supplies electricity to gaza as well

Egypt has an international port a mere 75km away..less than a 20 minute truck ride. Fishing off of the egyptian coast which borders on gaza is accessible without israeli restrictions.

in short: any and all of the gazans needs can be met via egypt, be it medical, financial, educational etc...without anyone being worried for getting shot at or blown up.
__________
Egypt has their own internal reasons for not opening up the border, but since when is that a concern for "progressives' who are concerned with the welfare of the gazans?

if that was their overriding concern, then obviously egypt, who is already providing more and cheaper trade without constraints is a viable solution...but progressives barely recognize that option....nor do they want to, hence there is no pressure from the progressives on egypt to open up their border
___________

the only reason i can come up with is that "its israels responsibility" and even if the gazans have to suffer, its better to put pressure on israel rather than on egypt even if it means their lives are worse off.....and people get killed in the process, as they already have.

you got a better reason?

[delrem]

64. I don't know any "progressive" who isn't pissed off at Egypt.

Do you? But then, being a right-winger you habitually abuse words like "progressive" and "liberal" and use them as cuss words.
Only a fool would suppose the US doesn't apply pressure. I thought after the strange "revolution" things would change, since the new guy isn't supposed to be a US puppet. "We'll see" is now too much of a stretch and Morsi's excuses for Egypt working in lockstep with Israel sound the same as Mubarak's.

This doesn't excuse Israel. Your words "apparently gaza has a problem with israel" are rather je jeune.

Why does Israel blockade Gaza's access to the sea? Why won't Israel allow Gaza to profit from the gas fields? Why does Israel confine Gazan fishing to less productive inshore waters?

Here's what you never do, Pelsar. You never put yourself, your people, in the shoes of the Palestinians. You never try to imagine the tables turned. If you did, the big words would be coming out. The likening to pogroms of the past, the big ones. You would not be sanguine.

[shira]

65. There's no international pressure vs. Egypt to ease Palestinian suffering

Jews are an easier target than Egyptians when it comes to Palestinian suffering.

No flotillas to protest Egypt, etc.

Where are the countless articles on all the 'caring' pro-Palestinian sites, condemning Egypt for its role in making the Palestinians of Gaza miserable?

[pelsar]

66. pressure on egypt?

will you please point to the articles, the blogs that express this "displeasure" with egypt keeping the border limited?

the rest of your rant has nothing to do with it...

links please?

(protests? convoys (there was one attempt by galaway a few years ago), UN resolutions, i'm pretty open to any evidence of this "displeasure" that you mention exists)

[delrem]

67. rant? hmm. Yah, you're a right winger all right.

[pelsar]

68. right winger?...OH NO!...you've got me, now i'm really hurt!!!

I've been mentally paralyzed by being called a 'gasp" right winger!. i suppose is better than being a called a loser, but maybe a step up from being told to "shut up!!

with shaking hands I type out the rest, but before i typpppe oout mmmy responsee

we should make a list of your "name callings" just for fun : liar, shut up, losers, imp, right winger ....(feel free to add the ones i missed..). When you do this "name calling' do you really expect me to "cower" and get afraid or something?.....a reminder, this is the internet, its a forum, bullying an anonymous poster doesnt work, it only makes you look foolish, like an immature college student or 12 yr old kid who has yet to learn to control his/her emotions.
_____________

but back to the original challenge:

i guess i can assume by your inability to produce any evidence for this disappointment for egyptian policy toward gaza and the subsequent "calls to action" by the progressive community that it in fact doesnt really exist....meaning you just made it up.

[delrem]

69. why should I defend progressives against your taunts, right-winger?

Your taunts are meaningless drivel.

[pelsar]

70. "right winger"....thats now twice....too boring

just for fun for the other posters reading this, i know we're all somewhat amused by the name calling and it will be interesting to see what new names delram can come up with.....but i think I would try guessing his/her age..

I guess 19-20, sophomore in college, probably a good university, it has a nice combo of basic immaturity, emotional driven posts with an ability to use the dictionary to find big words, and an inability to sustain an argument. (delram, feel free to confirm or not....)
__________

but more to the point, this is a forum for discussion and argument, not a sounding board...for that there are many many other places where you'll find like minded posters that dont challenge your view point, with the occasional troll who your can name call....you'll probably find your place in those forums, where you dont have to actually back up your view point with real information and you can be an intolerant and bigoted as any "humanist" and no one will ask you about it....

____

but if u still believe you have credibility...then i sure would like to see those progressive posts/articles about pressuring egypt to open the gates and help the gazans....(prove me wrong and I'll apologize)

[delrem]

71. That's too many to count times of bashing "progressives" and "liberals", right-winger.

That's the only note that you can strum.

[pelsar]

74. i think you miss the point of this forum:

why would i be here to "bash" right wingers, flat earth believers, etc, when they're not here to defend themselves?

i take it from your posts, your idea of a discussion is to bash those people who aren't on the forum so that you get no "push back" for your beliefs.......but i'm not just bashing the progressive beliefs, i'm bashing yours specifically and asking to you to back up what you write, which you seem to fail miserably at that, which does explain the "name-calling" (i had psych 101 in college many years ago).

like i wrote before, perhaps this is not the place for you, clearly you need one of those forums where there is no real challenges to your beliefs and you get mainly support for them..you know a "support group" kind of thing?

perhaps the other posters here can offer you their support? maybe send them some PM's to help defend your view point (you know those cute little 1+ thingys? ask some "internet friends' from other forums to help? and you can ask them to call me names too?, tell me to shut up, etc? Perhaps that can help?

[delrem]

75. Ridiculous. I/P is for DUers to discuss I/P issues.

Why should I respond to someone who diverts discussion (hasbara 101) to bash and taunt so-called "progressives" and "liberals" as not meeting his high standards, when that has nothing to do with the topic?

In my first discussions with you, you explained that you represented some kind of superior "liberal", not like "western liberals", and then in a pretzel of language you showed that you don't know what the term 'liberal' means, declaring yourself to be an advocate of "illiberal liberal methods". Claiming that "liberals" and "progressives" weren't "realistic" like you, so couldn't justify the illiberally liberal methods that you endorse.

That is far gone down the rabbit hole, pelsar.

Liberalism is founded on the principle of the equality of persons before the law, pelsar. An "illiberal liberal" who messes with the term 'equality', who makes it secondary to, say, a doctrine of the primacy of a certain nation, isn't a liberal. Period. No progressive would deny the principle of equality either.

[pelsar]

76. you cant even defend your own beliefs....

Liberalism is founded on the principle of the equality of persons before the law,

actually its more than that..but when you apply it....you'll discover that there is a difference between the ideal and the reality..shall i give you an example and let you attempt to explain how you deny rights to a certain groups beliefs and still claim its all equal.

you wont answer...because it negates your beliefs, hence your disappearing act and name calling, thats why i suggest you find a more supportive forum, you wont be challanged again and again. (upstairs in the regular DU its far more supportive of the general views)

[delrem]

77. go, little rabbit, go!

but I'll be see'in ya, maybe, if you ever pop your head out.

[pelsar]

78. i have no idea what that means...

can u write that in english without the cute little text which i'm sure means something to your peer group but has no meaning to mine...

[delrem]

79. That was plain english, pelsar. g'day to you.

[King_David]

85. I never understood it either .nt

[shira]

84. How does delrem deny rights to a certain group's beliefs? n/t

[pelsar]

103. start with the rights to security....

delrem wants the gazans to have an open port...is it not their right? They believe they have that right and I'm sure one can site many laws/rules that substantiate that right...Yet we also know that hamas will use that open port to import even more lethal weapons to use against israel. This they have stated clearly in both word and deed.

The right to a secure life is also a right and hamas use of rockets, etc attacking civilians negates that right.

hence israels especially along the border lose their right to live in security if they get that port open now.
________________

the progressive arguement will be "but we dont know that hamas will import rockets etc because they've never had an open port and its their right (any bad consequences are not relevant)..just ask them.

and if they are wrong and hamas does import larger missiles and use them on israeli cities...the reaction will be......oversized bottle rockets or something to that affect, infact they could kill 10,000 israelis but you wont hear the slightest peep of "well maybe it was a mistake to give them an open port, because its their right..never mind the rights of the dead israelis

[Shaktimaan]

88. Really? I counted zero.

Pelsar was just asking you to back up your assertion that progressives were as critical of Egypt as they are of Israel via some articles or UN resolutions or... Anything, really.

There was no bashing. Just a challenge you're failing to rise to.

Oh and as this person has me on ignore someone else may want to point this out to her.

[pelsar]

113. she avoids challenges.....its a pattern

shes good on large, general accusations, but when those accusations are challenged, the replies vary from "shut up, to loser, to right winger" anything but an actual answer ...so i doubt shes really interested in your answer.....btw which are you: loser, right winger?

[azurnoir]

115. maybe he doesn't respond to pile-ons that really could be called bullying

but please do not let that stop you

[pelsar]

119. i doubt it....the pattern is consistent...

challenge the original accusation and eventually get callled a "loser, rightwing etc and some other stuff that i dont understand.

i would put the bullying attempt on her...after all she is the one that is calling everyone names are around her. Perhaps you might want to tell her that its not a very good communication technique, she might listen to you

[Scootaloo]

80. The left exists

If Pelsar, Shira, Oberliner, and their sort had their way, leftists would be lined up over a ditch and gunned down. You know, like Honduras or Indonesia.

[pelsar]

81. if i had my way.....

i would have leftist learn to be tolerate and respectful other western beliefs and not belittle those that they disagree with.

as per your post.

[delrem]

83. Heh, you were hit by a pro leftist-baiter who scores by "alerts".

heheh
For pelsar, I think it's like a freeper fishing in DU. Pushing the envelope on baiting "left wing liberals", esp. "left wing liberal progressives".

Is there a song "The guy is not who he says he is"?
It would fit.

[pelsar]

107. i'm always a bit amused...

by the intolerance of the progressives here, anyone who takes a step off the reservation is branded "right wing" (I'm assuming that is a really really evil thing) i mean you guys make jihadnikim "wide tent people" with your reactions.

at best it should be noted as much as possible and brought to light......

best part is, if we just change the nouns, we could put you in the more extreme settler settlements, put you with the taliban, and you would fit right in, nobody would notice the difference.
_____

[delrem]

123. I don't attack "liberals" and "progressives" on DU, or DU I/P. That's your meme.

If that makes me "intolerant", fine.

So, could you explain again about your superior kind of "liberalism", the superior kind that isn't a milquetoast embrace of principles like equality before the law like "western liberalism", and which freely embraces "illiberal means to achieve liberal ends"? Your superior kind of liberalism that rejects equality before the law as first principle sine qua non and subjects equality to nationalist restrictions? I enjoy hearing about your "illiberal liberalism".

It's easy to divert I/P discussions to bash "progressives" and "liberals" on DU, but it's another to give a coherent explanation of your "illiberal liberal" alternative - an alternative which you claim isn't "right wing". Go for it.

[pelsar]

126. you believe in the those principles like any religion...

Last edited Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:09 AM - Edit history (4)

If that makes me "intolerant", fine.

good at least you admit to your intolerance, thats a step above many...though calling people names is a step below everyone I've known since 6th grade...

my 'superior brand" is quite simple...its grounded in reality. That consequences for application of your principles can and do have bad affects upon real people and how they live, and those consequences do infact negate the purity of your original principles. (for example: killing may be wrong...but there are times when it is acceptable or preferable hence the law is very flexible on the punishment if any for those who have killed- you apparently in the application of "your laws" u are not )


blind faith in culturally based laws in world where your culture is not the dominate one, is far more religious than any 'universal laws" that you believe exist..your beliefs are infact the minority in this world, like the taliban, like the tea party....you all have minority views yet believe they are universal.

as far as I understand of your beliefs:
1) the ends justifies the means (anything goes to achieves ones ends)
2) the god principle: if we do it "right" and please our "god", justice and harmony are the inevitable result


____
Go for it.
before i would start anything....the rules are simple, but i've tried this before with you: all accusations must be back up with links. That means no exaggerations, no making up stuff, dictionary definitions for all. Apparently you have trouble with those basic rules of communication....(because the ends justifies the means..)

[shira]

9. It's not Hamas' fault, it's Israel's? Pretty racist view there...

I think Hamas would disagree and say that they call all the shots in Gaza and are perfectly capable of making their own choices, ruling as they please.

And of course, Egypt has a role to play by keeping the border closed off. But they don't count either, do they? They're just pawns of the evil Zionists...

Those "zionists" control not only the US congress but also Gaza, Egyptian policy...

Tell me - how responsible is Hamas for the mess in Gaza? You say you don't support 'em, so let 'er rip....

[azurnoir]

12. "Those "zionists" control not only the US congress but also Gaza, Egyptian policy... "

wow shira that's pretty bad

however Hamas has turned out to be quite nasty haven't they? They're instituting what 'westerners' like to call Sharia law segregating classrooms by gender, they discriminate against women, and they much like Texas seem to love the death penalty

but of course we all know that it is Hamas not Israel that isn't allowing goods out of Gaza right it was Hamas who did this recently, alarabiya says it was Israel but we all know it was Hamas right ?

Gaza farmers burn tons of basil, mint after Israel border shut

Palestinian farmers in Gaza began destroying three tons of herbs last week, saying a prolonged closure of the crossing into Israel meant the plants were no longer fit for export to Europe.

The farmers began exporting herbs to Europe earlier this year, for the first time in five years.
But they say they are unable to reap the fruits of their efforts.

“The project is an ambitious one and it is in its beginnings but the continuous closing of the crossings is affecting the continuity and the success of the project,” said the director of Gaza's communal agriculture association, Jamal Abu Naja.

Last October, Israel lifted a five-year ban on the lucrative export of Gazan herbs and spices, imposed after the Islamist Hamas group seized control of the coastal enclave, and farmers had hoped to cash in with their latest crop of mint and basil.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/perspective/features/2013/04/21/Gaza-farmers-burn-tons-of-basil-mint-after-Israel-border-shut.html

but once again shira you seem to present a "yer either fer us ot agin us" dilemma a black and white thought process which sorry just doesn't work here as some of us have the ability to support neither Hamas or Israel I know that's so complex though

[shira]

15. I responded to a post of yours in which you assigned blame to Israel - none to Hamas.

And for someone who says they don't support Hamas, you certainly aren't as nearly forthcoming with condemnation of them as you are with Israel.....and they're about 100x more rightwing & conservative than Likud.

Why do you think that is?

Thought you loathed extreme right-wingers....

[azurnoir]

16. I explained my stance

and in answer to your question it's because my tax dollars are going to only one of those groups mentioned, I tend to complain more about what I'm forced to support by default

and BTW it is indeed Israel and Egypt that are controlling the crossings

[shira]

18. Your explanation was lame, for reasons given. Your tax dollars also go to the PA...

...and UN (think UNRWA), as well as Egypt and Pakistan. That's more money combined than to Israel, whose aid all goes back into the American economy.

Fail.

It's good you can admit Egypt controls the crossings too. Pity that all sanctimonious bigots put the blame primarily on Israel and rarely on Egypt.

[azurnoir]

19. are you calling DUers that do not agree with you "sanctimonious bigots"?

or is that just anybody who doesn't agree

[shira]

23. Why would anyone blame Israel almost exclusively...

...for Gazan imports/exports, unless they're either ignorant of geography or sanctimonious bigots? Is there another reason?

[azurnoir]

24. could be because Israel controls the most of the crossings

and while Rafah is at least partially open the trip across the Sinian would render most perishables useless, oh and Israel had previously claimed it would allow such exports but well that too got kicked to the curb-apparently

[shira]

27. So no other reason. It's either ignorance or bigotry. Thanks. n/t

[azurnoir]

28. it's neither shira but do feel quite free to wrap yourself in that if it comforts

you though

[pelsar]

44. the trip across the Sinia would render most perishables useles....poor excuse

Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:57 PM - Edit history (10)

You'll have to find another excuse..

there is an international port 20 minute from gaza in Egypt ---- El-Arish
74km from gaza city.

egypt could have easily handled the exporting.....they chose not to
_____________

then you claimed your more concerned with israel because israel gets your tax dollars, but then the additional posts show that Egypt and the PA also get millions of your tax dollars....
________________

why absolve both egypt and hamas of any responsibility for their gazes economic situation?


my guess? "justice" israel caused the problem, therefore israel has to solve it and if the Palestenians have to suffer until justice has been served, thats ok, because only through 'justice" will there be peace for all.....(well? is that not it?)

[azurnoir]

86. my guess would be that Israel agreed to allow Gaza produce to be shipping via it's ports

but never mind that eh?

[pelsar]

101. why risk lives when one doesnt have to?

more than once the Palestenians have attacked and killed israelis (and the Palestenians were also killed) at the transfer stations.

this danger does not exist on the egyptian side...

so why should lives be risked when they dont have to be?
__________

come on...say the real reason why you dont want egypt to open up its doors and give the gazans a better life....just write it out.

[azurnoir]

104. well if you are comfortable with Israel breaking it's agreements at least with Palestinians

then fine

[pelsar]

105. i prefer lives saved...on both sides

and the gazans getting a better life than political agreements.

but hey whats a piece of paper signed as opposed to real people living better
______

well, lets hear it, why do you prefer israel to have the borders open and not egypt?

[azurnoir]

106. yeo strawberries and mint can be dangerous stuff

and don't even get going about cilantro...........

[pelsar]

108. so can IEDs....

long range anti tank rockets, mortars,...

i have no idea why your ignoring them, you know they exist, you know the border stations have been attacked before...so why pretend it never happens?

[azurnoir]

109. so ied's hide in the strawberries and mint on the trucks going out of Gaza?

the border stations are manned regardless of goes in and out so your point is??????

[pelsar]

112. you really dont know? seriously?

so i'll explain as to why its more dangerous for people on both sides for their to be deliverers via israel as opposed to egypt....

and then you'll explain to me...why even though it does endanger peoples lives you still prefer that the deliveries go through israel and not the safer route via egypt

hows that sound?

[azurnoir]

117. well do they grow strawberries and herbs like mint and cilantro in Israel too?

if the obvious yes answer is forthcoming then I understand the danger really I do

[pelsar]

118. whats the relevancy?

i was simply asking you if you understand the process, the system used by hamas to attack the border stations....

it could be your not interested..is that it?

[azurnoir]

120. oh no I am interested but I was also pointing out economic security too

so okay lets hear it

[pelsar]

127. its simple....its history

Palestenians drive the trucks that enter the border stations to receive materials...the gates have to be open for that period....it opens up a vulnerable section for Palestinians snipers and mortars (happens)...not to mention that the trucks themselves have to be sweeped for bombs but that happens once their inside...where if there is bomb it can go off

this stuff is not rocket science, its happened before and no reason why it wont happen again....why risk lives when one doesnt have to
you mentioned economic security....israel closes off the borders when it receives rockets and other attacks.....the Palestinian farmers have no control over the rockets and attacks that come from gaza and they suffer when the border is closed.
______

if your foremost concern is economic security and interested in not endangering lives....then why not eygpt?
no rockets are falling, no reason to close the border stations, and hence there is economic security for the farmers....
________

but all is quiet on the progressive front when it comes to pressuring egypt.....they get billions from the US and hence are vunerable to pressure.

so why dont you like the idea?

[azurnoir]

128. but despite all that Israel's goverment said it would allow such transport

and well Israel gets 2 1/2 times what Egypt does that's hardly a measure

[pelsar]

129. i didnt ask the israeli govt..

i asked you...

given that fact that the israeli govt is not living up to its agreement and the Palestenians are suffering....what is wrong with going through egypt? (and the pressure may work on egypt, their economy is far more fragile)

what dont you like about it? why not even try?

whats more important...pressuring israel or getting the gazans a better life if possible though egypt?

[azurnoir]

130. so what Israel says doesn't matter then, well okay

however Sinai is sort of unsafe these days, but I can understand why you wouldn't want those dangerous strawberries coming through Israel what was it Palestinian terrorist might be hiding in them or some such

[pelsar]

131. el arish is 20min away....

thats the port.....you dont like the idea of them exporting?

but I can understand why you wouldn't want those dangerous strawberries coming through Israel what was it Palestinian terrorist might be hiding in them or some such

infact yes...i really dont like the idea of israeli kids and israeli fathers getting killed while the helping transfer goods to gaza...

i can understand how you think their risking their lives means nothing to you, but to some of us, it means a lot more...

[azurnoir]

132. so now strawberries from Gaza will kill Israeli children and their Fathers I see

the problem is that as I see it the risk is being to put it mildly dramatically inflated but more over we're entering in to what is being called a restarting of peace talks, and I wanted to see what could be expected as the average attitude of the 'average' Israel towards their government keeping its word and you've done that

[pelsar]

133. paper vs bombs...

I see it the risk is being to put it mildly dramatically inflated

thats because you prefer not to know and make light of almost daily attacks on the border...clearly you think little of our lives, and the risks taken to bring in supplies to gaza

yes we tend to believe that bombs and bulllets aimed at us have a lot more "weight" than a piece of paper that means little to the Palestenians on their side.

that our lives mean little to you, you too have made very clear.

[azurnoir]

134. Thanks pelsar keep telling us they did it before and they'll always do it

and poor defenseless Israel and the poor defenseless border guards can't protect the Israeli population so we do not have to keep our word

[pelsar]

135. they're doing it now...

i realize you think little of us getting shot at, bombed at......you've made that clear over and over again....

guess i dont like going to kids funerals.....

[shira]

136. This is consistent with her view on apartheid. She would rather see Palestinians suffer...

...waiting for Israel to open the borders, rather than expect Egypt to open its borders and make life easier.

Just as she won't protest apartheid throughout the Arab mideast, she won't protest Egypt either.

For that matter, she won't protest all the Palestinians being killed in Syria.

Neither will she protest Hamas treatment of Gazans. It's nationalism first!!!

-----------

That's the Palestinian 'cause' for you.

Westerner progressives doing the bidding of neighboring regressive, fanatic Arab regimes.

-----------

There's no daylight between their views when it comes to I/P.

[azurnoir]

137. shira how classy of you thanks such tactics say so much

couldn't have asked for more

[shira]

138. Don't like having the tables turned, do you?

You're constantly attacking Israel and its supporters.

What's sauce for the goose....

The thing is, you've been projecting most of your accusations, as your positions are far worse than those you accuse of ill intent. I'm not sure I can find 100 settlers who support Palestinian misery as you do. As bad as many of them are, you take the cake.

[azurnoir]

139. No I have not personally attacked Israel's supporters in the manner you have here

but once again that is the difference between us, what I have aid is that I'm not 100% sure of one posters motivations

[shira]

140. Yeah, you haven't attacked those "rightwingers" have you? n/t

[azurnoir]

141. we are not allowed to call other DUers Rightwingers

no matter how much some of the stuff posted here resembles Rightwing memes

[delrem]

33. Because Israel has Gaza under strict siege conditions.

Gaza is a coastal area, but Israel denies Gaza the coast. The gas fields, the fishing grounds. Access by water to the rest of the world. Inland, Israel blockades Gaza by land, using any activity from 100 to 300 yards inside Gaza as a shooting range for the IDF. Crossing over with tanks to flatten areas and extend the shooting gallery is habitual. Devastating military "operations" attacking all of Gaza are like clockwork. This in an area that's narrow already, overpopulated to the max with a full 75% of that population being refugees from Israeli ethnic cleansing. The people are essentially defenseless.

For sure the Gazan population knows exactly what you, shira, think of them. They know that you're in a bind because you want the Gaza gasfields, the Gaza fishing grounds and the Gaza coast. You hate and detest the Gazan population not just because they aren't Jews, but also because they're refugees from your ethnic cleansing and so their very existence is an affront to the image you want to project.

[shira]

39. Delusional

For sure the Gazan population knows exactly what you, shira, think of them. They know that you're in a bind because you want the Gaza gasfields, the Gaza fishing grounds and the Gaza coast. You hate and detest the Gazan population not just because they aren't Jews, but also because they're refugees from your ethnic cleansing and so their very existence is an affront to the image you want to project.

So you believe Israel, its Jews, and its supporters have some plan to once-and-for-all rid Gaza of its Arabs, take it over, and claim everything for themselves?

Fascinating.

So what the hell are "we" greedy, hateful bastards waiting for?

[delrem]

55. There you go, making up "beliefs" and "support" again, out of your little head.

[shira]

57. Your words. Own them...

For sure the Gazan population knows exactly what you, shira, think of them. They know that you're in a bind because you want the Gaza gasfields, the Gaza fishing grounds and the Gaza coast. You hate and detest the Gazan population not just because they aren't Jews, but also because they're refugees from your ethnic cleansing and so their very existence is an affront to the image you want to project.

What the hell else could that mean?

[delrem]

58. They're accurate. And Israel is not "waiting", Gaza has been under siege for years.

To say nothing of the cleansing of Area C, ...

[shira]

59. So why deny those "facts" are what you actually believe? n/t

[delrem]

60. I denied your spin, you little imp. You're so cute when you do that....

[shira]

61. No spin is needed when analyzing your prejudice. n/t

[delrem]

62. Then why did you spin it?

Why did you avoid discussing the actual extent of the siege of Gaza, which is horrific, and focus on making up spin about what delrem "believes" and "supports"?

I know, it's why little imps do

[azurnoir]

20. oh and BTW not all of the aid the uS gives Israel comes back here n/t

[shira]

22. I see you counting to the last penny all $$ going to Israel, but what about...

...all the funds the US gives to UNRWA, the PA, Pakistan, and Egypt?

You don't have any idea how much that is, nor do you care, right?

[azurnoir]

25. no I gave no accounting of amounts mostly because there are also funds on top

of the $3+billion promised and I am not sure how many millions they account for

[azurnoir]

26. here ya go Israel is the #1 recipient the Palestinians do not even make the top 10

?w=500&h=312

http://diplopundit.net/2012/08/06/snapshot-top-10-recipients-of-us-foreign-aid-in-fy2012-and-fy2013-request/

[shira]

29. But billions $$ more goes to dictatorships, UNRWA, and the PA....

It's mostly unaccountable.

But you could care less...

[azurnoir]

30. it can't be accounted for but you just know they're getting it

kind of like how 'some' in this country just know all 'welfare queens' drive Cadillac's

[oberliner]

31. The US gave $500 million to the PA and $250 million to the UNRWA

Those were the numbers for last year.

And a little over a billion and a half to Egypt.

But who's counting, right?

[azurnoir]

32. well apparently you're counting and 'some' members of Congress too

but thanks oh BTW how much of that $500 million went for PA security forces?

[shira]

40. But you're not the least concerned about THOSE tax dollars of yours....

Why is that?

And what do we know...today's headline:

Kerry quietly approved $1.3 billion in arms to Egypt
http://www.timesofisrael.com/kerry-quietly-approved-1-3-billion-in-arms-to-egypt/

Your tax dollars.

Do you care now?

[azurnoir]

49. well that $253 million less than Egypt requested according to the chart posted in #26

so you can rejoice

[shira]

51. You only bring up concern for your tax dollars WRT Israel. Why? n/t

[azurnoir]

52. because Israel represents by far the largest outlay

why are you so concerned about Egypt and especially the Palestinians ?

[shira]

53. So you'd be okay w/ less aid, as long as Israel isn't #1?

Really?

I'm not concerned about Egypt. I don't bring up tax dollar bullshit except in response to hypocritical arguments.

[oberliner]

41. I looked it up just now

Since you seemed unaware of the numbers.

Took less than a minute.

If you want to know about the money (i.e. how much went to security forces) I'm confident you can find it yourself as well.

[azurnoir]

48. Point remains according to the chart I posted the Palestinians are not in the top 10

recipients of US aid

[Shaktimaan]

72. Who cares what an incorrect chart says?

Your chart didn't include the aid the US donates to the UNRWA. Nor does it consider that the US is Israel's sole beneficiary while the PA has funding from dozens of states.

Regardless, once you tally up all of the ways we grant them aid the PA is easily in the top 10.

[azurnoir]

73. The chart is not about US donations to the UN

that does not make it incorrect however, nor is it about contributions from other countries to the PA

[Shaktimaan]

87. Oh ok. So your argument is that its not dishonest, but merely misleading

Your post indicated that the Palestinians aren't in the top 10 recipients of US aid. Clearly that's untrue, seeing as the UNRWA exists to provide aid exclusively to the Palestinians. Your categorization of it as "UN aid" as an excuse for not considering it US aid to Palestinians is just so craven I'm actually embarrassed for you.

[azurnoir]

89. Not really but seeing as how you resort to ad hominems such as craven to discribe what I wrote

let's take a closer look the US contribution to UNRWA for 2012 was $55 million however that goes to mainly Palestinians outside of Palestine, not the Palestinian Authority, still it does not place the Palestinian Authority or Palestinians in Palestine on the op 10 but please do continue to use such reaches to make your point, because it is still only a fraction of what the US gives Israel and other nations

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/US_contributions_unrwa.html

[Shaktimaan]

90. Nice try

But anyone can see that you chose a chart that only included the aid for the first SIX DAYS OF 2012. Which might be why it was SO much smaller than ALL the other year's numbers preceding it.

Seriously, do you think I'm an idiot? It's cheap tactics like that which earn one descriptions like "craven."

Here's some more up to date info.

On Friday, the United States released nearly $500 million in aid that had been frozen for months to the Palestinian Authority (PA). Following this announcement, Israel claimed that it would restart regular monthly tax transfers to the PA, which it has been withholding since the U.N. bid for Palestinian statehood in November.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/28/obama-releases-aid-to-palestinian-authority.html

however that goes to mainly Palestinians outside of Palestine, not the Palestinian Authority

So what? We were discussing aid to the "Palestinians" not the "PA." Way to move the goalposts!

[azurnoir]

91. your article is dated March 28 2013 and states the money was released dys earlier not in

the first 6 days of 2012 as you attempt to claim and then you accuse me of what was that again?

[Shaktimaan]

93. Huh?

Your numbers were from the first 5 days of 2012. Not full 2012 funding.

My article wasn't about UNRWA funding. It was just demonstrative of recent US funding to the PA. My article had nothing to do with yours in other words.

Sorry if that was confusing for you.

[azurnoir]

96. my chart is for both 2012 and 2013 not the 6 days you claim

unless your now going to tell us that Israel received $3,100,000,000 in the first days of 2012 alone, what about the rest of the year and the additional monies for missile defense programs ect? there was also a few hundred million here and there for those too, but when its Israel who's counting right?

[Shaktimaan]

97. This chart

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/US_contributions_unrwa.html

The one I responded to.

First 5 days of 2012.
Your other chart is just flat out incorrect. Anyone who can add can see that

[azurnoir]

99. Israel recieves 3 billion dollars for starters then recieves millions more for additional

assistance my chart did not include the UN

[azurnoir]

100. lol my first chart included governments only most of countries mentioned also got UN aid

which the US also contributed to, but gee when it comes to anyone besides Palestinian who cares right?

[Shaktimaan]

98. If you're confused..

See here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=42873

[azurnoir]

110. why are the Palestinians being held to a different standard when it comes to total aid they receive

than the other countries in the original chart, sure you score some point but it's quite obvious that 2 different standards are being used here

[Shaktimaan]

111. simple

because the Palestinians receive a shit-ton of US aid from their very own UN organization (the largest in the entire fucking UN, which lists the US as its largest donor), while the other nations on the list do not.

[azurnoir]

114. virtually all of the countries mentioned in the 1rst chart recieve UN aid

however it is nice to see some admit that they apply a double standard when it comes to Palestinians if only to win rhetorical points, that alone speaks volumes

[Shaktimaan]

121. blah blah

however it is nice to see some admit that they apply a double standard when it comes to Palestinians if only to win rhetorical points, that alone speaks volumes

I did nothing of the sort. The issue was never about receiving UN aid, it was about US aid. Can you please point to the country on that list with its own UN agency at the UN dedicated to funneling aid money to it that's primarily funded by the US? If so then I'll gladly include them.

My entire point was merely that you incorrectly stated that US aid to the Palestinians doesn't even crack the top 10. You're wrong about that. Take the hit and move on. No one cares if other agencies get UN aid, because that's not the point.

[azurnoir]

122. such a compelling argument - not as we'll see

first off your claim the most of UNRWA's money comes from the US is quite untrue, the US accounts for about a quarter of UNRWA's funding, more over your imaginative use of descriptive ie 'funneling' implies something illegal or at best unsavory about this program would that like Irving Moskowitz funneling money possibly gain via legalized gambling to Israel's settlement project? However as virtually all of the countries on the 1rst chart receive UN aid my point about double standards is quite valid, it is simply that the Palestinians because of UNRWA make an easy target, but seeing as how the US contributions go to all UN aid programs your point becomes quite invalid

What are the main sources of UNRWA's income?

Almost all funding comes from voluntary contributions, and mostly from donor states. The United Nations Secretariat finances over 100 international staff posts each year from its regular budget. UNESCO and WHO also fund on average 10 posts in the education and health programs.

Who are UNRWA's biggest donors?

The United States was the largest single donor in 2011 with a total contribution of over USD 239 million, followed by the European Commission (over USD 175 million). These contributions made up about 42 per cent of the total income UNRWA received for its core programme budget.

What is UNRWA’s financial situation?

The Agency is currently under-funded. At the end of April 2012 the Agency's cash deficit stood at USD 69.4 million. Funding is generally not keeping pace with increased refugee needs and uptake of services. This has led to a worrying erosion in the quality of services.

http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php?id=87#funding

[Shaktimaan]

124. Excuse me

I obviously meant that the US was the largest contributor. Not that it was responsible for the majority of its contributions.

[azurnoir]

125. predictable reply

and you see when I initially started out with this Friday I said Palestinians as euphemism for the Palestinian Authority/PLO or the recognized Palestinian government but the literal of course was seized upon instantly to score rhetorical points, I didn't mention it until now because why bother? As my point no matter how it is spun still stands

[azurnoir]

92. Thae Palestinians are not mentioned in that chart which I will repost

Snapshot: Top 10 Recipients of US Foreign Aid in FY2012 and FY2013 Request August 6, 2012 · 12:08 am

Via the CRS | State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs: FY2013 Budget and Appropriations


?w=500&h=312

http://diplopundit.net/2012/08/06/snapshot-top-10-recipients-of-us-foreign-aid-in-fy2012-and-fy2013-request/

now carry on again

[Shaktimaan]

94. I know

So what? All it means is that your chart excludes all forms of aid giving an incomplete picture.

You're using this chart bc it's misleading. Not because its accurate.

[azurnoir]

95. No I am using the chart because it shows which the top 10 recipients of US foreign aid

it is your own attempt to spin that I find at this point amusing

[azurnoir]

102. different standards apply to Palestinians as most or all countries in the chart recieve UN aid

but thanks for choosing that route to prove some point

and oddly none of it seems to top the $3+ billion the uS alone gives Israel