Gaza govt plans to execute more collaborators

[oberliner]

GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- The Hamas-run government in Gaza plans to execute a number of collaborators with Israel in an attempt to "eradicate" collaboration this year, a security official said Monday.

Salah Addin Abu Sharkh, director of internal security at the Interior Ministry, said the government had "a clear goal and several means to eradicate this dangerous epidemic," including executing convicted collaborators.

Abu Sharkh said the anti-collaboration campaign, which ran from March 12 to May 12, achieved most of its goals and resulted in a number of arrests. He said legal procedures against the suspects were ongoing, in an interview on the ministry's website.

"Social networks are largely useful in educating our people, though the Israeli occupation makes some attempts to recruit collaborators through these social networks. However, these attempts are incomparable with the huge benefits these networks achieve in raising awareness about the dangers of collaboration," Abu Sharkh added.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=603685

[aquart]

1. Anyone who wants to make peace gets murdered.

Fine fellows. Let's send them guns and money.

[Live and Learn]

26. Yep, unfortunately that criteria applies on all sides. nt

[Israeli]

30. Yup...

Rabin and Sadat being about the best examples there is... in my lifetime at least .

[aquart]

44. Israelis are murdering fellow Jews for Palestinian outreach?

When? Who?

[shaayecanaan]

2. From Robert Kennedy's dispatch from Palestine, 4/6/1948

"A Jewish girl in her teens was picked up by some members of the Haganah on the road from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and, as she was injured, she was taken to the Hebrew Hospital in Jerusalem. They believed that she had somehow been separated from a Jewish convoy which had just gone through and which had had a scrap with the Arabs.

She was particularly noticed because of the strange people who were her visitors and by the fact that she insisted on being moved to the English hospital. Malca was sent to question her. She was turned away gruffly by the girl after the girl admitted that she had in reality been in a British tank with a boy friend and wanted nothing to do with the Jews.

The Jewish Agency offered to send the girl out on a farm in order to let her regain her health and give her a new start, but she just demanded her release which they were forced to give her. She continued consorting with the British police despite warnings from the Stern gang.

One night the Stern gang followed the tactics of the underground forces in the last war. They shaved all the hair off the girl’s head. Two days after Malca told me this story the sequel took place. The girl’s brother returned for leave from duty with the Haganah up in Galilee and, finding her in such a state, shot her."

http://jcpa.org/article/robert-kennedys-1948-reports-from-palestine/

[oberliner]

3. Look how far we've come in 65 years

It's a credit to human evolution.

On a more serious note, it does seem to be the case on this site and elsewhere that people on all sides of the debate seem more interested in discussing events of the 1940s as opposed to those of today.

A simple condemnation (as the Palestinian Center for Human Rights as issued) for this behavior, one would imagine, might be more in order.

To say nothing of the question of what principles progressives, liberals, Democrats, ought to be organizing around with respect to the current Palestinian leadership in Gaza.

But I guess it's more entertaining to try to get a "win" by pulling quotes from the relatively distant past.

I know there's only a handful of us here actively reading and responding to these messages, but could we try to elevate the discussion a bit and focus on the here and the now?

If you want to say that Hamas has every right to conduct these executions and wish to cheer them on for doing so, please go ahead - I'd be more than happy to take the opposing view and have that discussion.

[shaayecanaan]

8. A good line from a great movie...

Journalist: M. Ben M'Hidi, don't you think it's a bit cowardly to use women's baskets and handbags to carry explosive devices that kill so many innocent people?

Ben M'Hidi: And doesn't it seem to you even more cowardly to drop napalm bombs on defenseless villages, so that there are a thousand times more innocent victims? Of course, if we had your airplanes it would be a lot easier for us. Give us your bombers, and you can have our baskets.

No wonder Israel banned The Battle of Algiers. For a democracy, they do a good trade in banning films that they don't like.

I always marvel at the incredulity of arguments such as yours. Yes, Jews assassinated peace mediators, massacred civilians, executed collaborators, and shot their sisters for having British boyfriends, and did everything that the Palestinians have since done, but they don't do it any more. Hurrah for Israel.

But that is not a testament to their morality, but to their resources. It is not moral to forego the use of baskets when you have bombers. It is simply more efficient, prudent and self-interested. The fact is that Israel does not execute collaborators only because they no longer have to.

In your last post regarding collaborators, you lamented the fact that Hamas had executed a member of a rival militia group, notwithstanding that if Israel had killed that same person you wouldn't have batted an eyelid.

Really isn't this just rank hypocrisy on your part? The fact is that you can't demonise the Palestinians for killing Israelis because no Israelis are dying, whereas Israel continues to kill Palestinians at a steady rate. So you are now faced with two choices:-

a) criticising the Palestinians for killing "rival militia members" that Israel would happily kill anyway or;

b) hysterically inflating stone throwing incidents into "terror attacks", or picking over minutiae in Palestinian school textbooks or Palestinian blog posts.

Either way, please don't take credit for "elevating the discussion". That's just patently bullshit.

[sabbat hunter]

4. what is the point of posting this

to show that jews did it too in the pre-independence days?

[delrem]

5. Probably because it's pre-independence days for Palestinians?

Because of operations cast lead, pillar of cloud, etc., and the danger of informants pinpointing targets?

You guys might think it sounds great to talk about how Israel "evolved" as compared to the Palestinians, quietly overlooking small differences like total armament vs none, total control vs none, etc.

Perhaps another example is the Warsaw ghetto. Or is that comparison a no-no? Because it seems to me that the parallels are there, up to and including the oppressors installing a puppet gov't of collaborators to do some of the dirtiest work.

[sabbat hunter]

6. do you think

that the PA or Hamas are a puppet government of Israel? Do you think Israel is trying to commit genocide on the Palestinians like the Nazis did to the Jews?

[King_David]

7. yes all that is probably believed,

Disgusting.

[delrem]

9. PA does security for Israel's occupation.

Israel controls all. Area C is being cleansed, the rest is being partitioned, totally segregated.

Hamas is powerless. No control of imports/exports, of the economy, of the natural resources, of anything in a land composed 80% of despairing refugees.

No, not genocide. Just a neverending siege and oppression, economic, social, cultural, total oppression. As Netanyahu explained, a constant hammering intended to cause Palestinians to lose all hope.

Do you really think it has to be as bad as the shoa, to be bad enough to reprove? Do you, too, deny the Nakba?

[sabbat hunter]

10. I believe the truth

that it probably was an equal split of people fleeing from war, some forced to flee by Israeli troops and some told to flee by local Arab commanders on the ground.

PA forces patrol area under PA authority. They do not do so under Israeli orders.

[sabbat hunter]

11. there is no comparison

between the Warsaw ghetto and Gaza. Israel has every right to control its national borders. They did not herd Palestinians in to Gaza. Nor does Israel control the border of Gaza and Egypt.
Nor is Gaza slowly being starved out or killed by disease.

and just because it was done in pre-israel days, did not make it right then nor does it make it right now.

[delrem]

12. Amazing! To deny that Gaza is under siege, that the WB is occupied, while claiming "truth".

I think the comparison is apt. I also think anyone who would use the circumstances of the people in the Warsaw ghetto, their system of gov't, their resistance movement, any of it, as reason for denigrating them, is beneath contempt. Likewise for those who denigrate gazans while either ignoring or falsifying their situation.

Enough. I've spoken with Zionists on these issues before and learned that it's hopeless. I'm not going to try to convince you or the Zionist I/P crew of *anything*.

[oberliner]

13. "I think the comparison is apt."

This is at the heart of the problem.

The Warsaw Ghetto is an apt comparison?

Can you actually mean that?

[delrem]

14. Yes.

I *don't* say the situation is *the same*.
I do say that the situation is *comparable*.
How comparable? The people in the Warsaw ghetto had to deal with external powers having total control, and who oppressed them just for the fact of who they were. There were some in the ghetto who for one reason or another worked with the oppressive external powers to enforce law in the ghetto. They were only the surface because there were (of course!) many layers of resistance. The resistance permeated all levels of society in the ghetto, all ages and abilities. There were resistance movements which *did* enact summary law to rid the society of traitors, and this was considered necessary in the circumstances. I, for one, will not judge them. The institutions weren't models of democracy because that wasn't possible. The institutions tended to root in the deepest religious/cultural bonds because those bonds are the only ones which are invulnerable to oppressive external interference. Those exact religious/cultural bonds were the most despised by the oppressive external powers.

You seem to think that comparisons aren't fair, aren't just, that to compare these two situations is to trivialize the Warsaw ghetto reality? Is that right? I disagree with that. I think the refusal to see any similarities is to trivialize the reality in Gaza and WB.

[King_David]

15. What a disgusting post,

Besides breaking DU rules.

[pelsar]

16. of course she means it.....its an necessary part of her beliefs

Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:36 AM - Edit history (8)

one can compare american occupation to the german occupation of france
one can compare the american indian reservations to the westbbank
hell one can compare russian cossacks to american soldiers...

you just have to pick and choose which elements are similar and then you have a comparison.
____________

she's not interested in a "table" of where you would have a subject and then "rate it" warsaw vs gaza....the comparisons would be absurd.....shes mainly interested in the emotional output and what you can take away from it. If gaza is like the warsaw ghetto guess what that makes the israelis on the borders?........

The main theme is, in case you missed it:
As long as the Palestenians are considered helpless, not only are they not responsible for their actions, but she cannot judge them as well...hence gaza has to be the warsaw ghetto. To do so however requires two essential ingredients:

1) she has to ignore and condemn what the Palestenians of gaza, their govt what they actual say, do and believe (she basically claims their own culture as non existent or that hers is superior and knows better)

2) it means ignoring the egyptian border or believing that the zionist/israel actually control egyptian foreign policy

so the first is elitist racism,
while the second is either the classic jew/israel conspiracy belief along the lines of the elders of zion, or that facts are not relevant when it comes to a pushing an agenda.

[delrem]

17. This has nothing to do with my "beliefs".

If a Zionist on I/P posts an OP pointing out how a Palestinian authority, of any kind, is executing traitors, it is appropriate to point out that in the Warsaw ghetto were groups that did exactly that. Why? Because the Zionist uses the fact of the holocaust to justify the existence of Israel as a Zionist state, and because Israel as a Zionist state is product of an ethnic cleansing that created a situation where Gaza is composed 80% of refugees, and Gaza is under siege.

That is basic. The comparison isn't a "disgusting" disparagement of the terror Jews endured in the Warsaw ghetto. On the contrary, the comparison honors the memory.

[pelsar]

22. really?

Palestinians execute people, the progressives justify it because jews did it 60 years ago.....

and then the "executions" honor the memory of those in the warsaw ghetto
_________________

wow....lots of kool-aid...lots of it, gallons of it.....

[delrem]

23. Who said anything about "justify"? that's you, pelsar, making shit up

[pelsar]

27. it honors their memory.....

i would say thats justifying the executions.....we tend to honor those we respect and whos actions we find commendable....

i would say your not just justifying it, your even commending it as a good thing....after all, it honors those in the warsaw ghetto who preferred to die fighting rather than to die by starvation, disease or in the ovens of the concentration camps...those very same choices the gazans have as per your comparison (as i interpret your subtle hints)

[delrem]

28. Your interpretation. Now, what about Gaza, eh?

[delrem]

46. This has bothered me, a lot. So I revisit it.

Allow me to put both my explanation and pelsars response in one place:

I said:
"If a Zionist on I/P posts an OP pointing out how a Palestinian authority, of any kind, is executing traitors, it is appropriate to point out that in the Warsaw ghetto were groups that did exactly that. Why? Because the Zionist uses the fact of the holocaust to justify the existence of Israel as a Zionist state, and because Israel as a Zionist state is product of an ethnic cleansing that created a situation where Gaza is composed 80% of refugees, and Gaza is under siege.

That is basic. The comparison isn't a "disgusting" disparagement of the terror Jews endured in the Warsaw ghetto. On the contrary, the comparison honors the memory."

pelsar interprets this as::
"Palestinians execute people, the progressives justify it because jews did it 60 years ago.....

and then the "executions" honor the memory of those in the warsaw ghetto "

So pelsar interprets it as if it were that I said "the Palestinian executions honor the memory of those in the Warsaw ghetto."

That interpretation is perverse.

[pelsar]

53. yes it is perverse.....but its your comparison....

first you have to have a perverse interpretation of the zionist movement to get to where you want to go....once your foundation is perverse you can make any comparison you want and it will be justified in your head.

stick to the real definition of zionism, from its foundations in the 1800's, its wide variations and your attempt to split hairs and compare Palestinian executions to warsaw ghetto jews falls apart and your left with:

israelis = nazis.

that clearly is the long term goal of the subtly....we got it, its clear and its obvious......the ends justifies the means...
___

the only thing the warsaw ghetto has in common with gaza is that both had serious restrictions for the locals to move out of the defined area....and thats really about it

[delrem]

55. Well, that's just about crazy enough for me, pelsar.

But I think you still have more to go.

[delrem]

18. "2) it means ignoring the egyptian border or believing that the zionist/israel actually control..."

Bullshit.
No sane person would suppose that Mubarak, in particular, wasn't bought off by the USA, Israel's patron.
No sane person would suppose that this hasn't been of central interest vis-a-vis US deals (worth billions) with Morsi.

In fact, those who ignore this or pretend it doesn't exist are "fibbing" in a very familiar way.

[pelsar]

19. back to the zionist control the US (always a good fall back position)

so if Mubarak and Morsi have it sometimes closed because the US demands it, and that is because its in Israeli interest..which means were back to the "zionists control US policies"

and the progressives who are so busy attempting to pressure israel to open the gates...i guess they don't know that egypt can also be pressured....or they dont want to because.......(this out to be good, if you even bother to answer)

____

btw, funny thing about those tunnels...rafah is considered an "open air port" since everyday trucks pour in to bring stuff for the tunnels..if someone really wanted to shut it down, all they would have to do is stop the trucks....

[delrem]

20. Yah, well, so? Do you actually deny this?

[pelsar]

21. that us zionists control the US?

hmm...let me think...us zionists control world banking, got the US to attack Iraq, control the world court, control the US elections, (presidential and senate)....

we developed windows, hence we control most pcs...got waze into google so in a few years we'll know everyones movement...

whats left? i guess your right, us zionists really do control the US and soon the world.
_____________

btw you have now officially joined the "flat earth society"

[delrem]

24. Oh c'mon, "no space between Israel and USA".

When you deny that there's some special relationship, you're just showing that you can lie to yourself.

[pelsar]

25. if your asking..

if there are similar interests between countries, democratic western countries, vs non democratic countries/societies that reject western values then of course israel is closer to the US than egypt....
or the Palestenians (both soundly reject US democratic and western values)

if you wondering why, there was no question that israel would help the US troops in iraq with training and supplies, whereas turkey would not, egypt would not, its because western countries have similar values.
_________

what you cannot see is that countries work out of their own self interest..If egypt wanted to open the gates and it was in their best interest they would.

i have no idea if the US and europe is pressuring egypt to...but what is missing is you and your friends..why aren't you pressuring egypt to?

have you and your friends been bought off by us zionists?...must be because your pretty quiet about opening up that egyptian border

[delrem]

29. This topic has nothing to do with "me and my friends", whoever you think that is.

It's about the similarity in situation between refugees in Gaza, and refugees in Warsaw.
You can't seem to handle that.

[Israeli]

31. some of us can delrem....

.... read this :

http://www.avigailabarbanel.me.uk/gaza-ghetto.html

[pelsar]

33. do you seriously believe that?

but Israel’s actions are very similar and their outcomes are leading in the same direction as the outcomes of Nazi anti-Jewish policies.

I dont know about you, but I guess that makes the rest of us in the IDF just like nazi's

[Israeli]

34. No not really pelsar...

....but delrem made a comparison that the Zionists on here will hang him out to dry on
all I'm saying is that he is allowed to ... he is not the only one or the first one to make the comparison .

I dont know about you, but I guess that makes the rest of us in the IDF just like nazi's

you know thats not true .... just as I do .
but to the outside world its what we have become .

[pelsar]

35. i realize that...and

it is such an absurd comparison....that i cannot help but think were back in the 1930s with israelis replacing jews. To my mind it is such demonization so full of lies, so wrong, that is precisely what that article you linked to is all about, except it is us that are the "less than" humans"

and Delrem, she can says what she wants and as much as i disagree, i will defend her right to speak/write loudly, make up stuff if she wants to, believe that we're akin to nazis..and i will defend my right to disagree and i will defend her right to call me anything she wants.....

[delrem]

36. You're slinging around the big words again, pelsar, but still haven't addressed the OP.

In contrast, my posts address the OP.

[pelsar]

50. the OP

hamas executes its own...so? fanatic theorcractic govts do that, its part of their base foundation. Its what i expect out of such govt and requires no comment from me.

what does interest me are the nazi = israeli comments that come after, or the "progressive" reaction to the obvious and their excuses for the obvious and the racist attempts to explain that its really ok if the Palestenians do it but not others.

[delrem]

69. You seem very sensitive about this, to the point of having to invent it. n/t

[pelsar]

71. very sensitive?.....this is a forum, where posters comment...

i have no idea how you gauge "sensitive".. but us "pricks" are like that

just to clarify: for someone who has trouble being challenged here and responding in an accurate and mature way, i'm not sure you're one the most appropriate poster to use the word "invent"

Although your best reaction was to tell me to "shut up" on an internet forum..that one actually got a chuckle out of me... of course telling me "I've been defeated" was also rather humorous..again on an internet forum. I do believe you have "reality issues" and need to get your hands dirty with real dirt.

[delrem]

72. "this forum is not for you". The words of a little prick.

It seems fitting to me, pelsar. Sorry if it bothers you.

All that aside, you totally miss the importance of the actual topic, ...

It's just inductive reasoning, of course, but I think you evade the topic as you do because not only you, but all hasbarists are incapable of dealing with the topic.

[pelsar]

73. nothing to evade...what would you like to know

just ask directly.....its not difficult (I'm not like u, if you have a question, just ask and u will get a direct answer)

so what would you like to know? ...

[delrem]

74. From you? I want nothing. It's nice, tho', that you can post a sentence without vitriol.

[pelsar]

76. so what's the problem?

you complain that you dont like what i write, that i evade the OP...so i ask what exactly are you interested in knowing and then you say nothing....

i prefer the "shut up" answer on your part, at least then i understand that your not interested...(and i get a chuckle as well) of course being called a "little prick" does have its value.__
___


just for fun, your probably a facebook member of the "anti internet bullying" list or something like that...am i right?

[delrem]

77. Please refer back to your post #16, when you first addressed this OP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=43260

Now I've been trying to get you to say something, anything, about how my actual post responded to the OP. That's totally beyond you.

Meanwhile, I've been responding to what best can be called your mischaracterizations, "taunts", and whatnot. I've used the opportunity to embellish on my original response, of course. In that regard I think the time I put in was worth it, esp. in my interaction w. Israeli. I can't help it if you didn't understand a word of it.

[pelsar]

78. so you disagree with one of my posts to someone else?

and you decide that i'm avoiding the issue? it wasn't even addressed to you....if you would like a response from me all you have to do is ask. However you made it clear that you are not interested, have you not?

a suggestion, yes, another one:

1) dont assume posts made to other posters have to be about what your interested in...drop your ego down a notch

2) if your want a direct response on something specific just ask directly, no one bites here and we all ignore your attempts at "bullying

3) discussions are dynamic, just like in real life, topics change as the dicussions happen, it has nothing to do with avoidance and everything to do with human interaction and our own interests.

4) if you believe i've mis characterized u or your posts. write it out directly as you did with this one, you will get a direct response


_______________
the only actual post of yours that holds any real expanded content is your #68.......so i'm perplexed, do you want me to answer or not?...your call

[delrem]

80. You're the weirdest hasbarist I've met up with, so far.

Does hasbara ever flunk a wannabe?
I think it should, because the current state of the program doesn't meet the task.

[pelsar]

81. perhaps because i'm not what you define....

Does hasbara ever flunk a wannabe?

perhaps all your "hasbarest" you've met are similar to you...the ones who confuse the cyber world with the real one. perhaps, like you they dont really know how to respond when the "talking points' are challenged...

i really dont know, but i do know, that you certainly confuse the real world with this cyber world ----

this is a side note:

you actually wrote that i've been defeated.... I admit i can 't help but bring it up again, i really do find it hilarious and like a really good joke it always makes me laugh. But on the other hand, i guess you really do believe it, that your posts have "defeated" me and i must now, like a "loser' hang my head in shame, admit my ignorence, maybe thats why you called me little prick? because I haven't accepted my defeat?

of course if your really serious about my "defeat' than you really need some real help, and my original suggestions still stand: peace corp, free syrian army, somlia or gaza.....

___

more to the point..you've complained that i didnt respond to the OP as per your imagined guidelines, then you mentioned to me that you expanded upon it, which appears to be a hint that you would like me to respond.

well, your now being asked directly.....would you like me to respond or not? (2nd time you've been asked)

[delrem]

83. Perhaps hasbara fails because it's only needed because it promotes deceit.

[pelsar]

84. I dont believe you would know.....

since as per your example you seem to have a problem when your posts are actually challenged....how many have you put on ignore?

apparently you prefer to stick with those who agree with you and avoid those that challenge your viewpoint.....
this place as i explained is not a "sounding board"...views get challenged and most attempt to respond, apparently you have a problem with that.

[delrem]

85. are you on "repeat" mode *always*, pelsar?

In fact I've not only responded to the OP but I've explained and re-explained it, from different angles.

You just can't catch on.

[pelsar]

88. i'm confused and need clarification.....

which one of your posts, shall i respond to.... After all i sure wouldnt want you to claim that i'm avoiding something or other.....(and then you might call me another name and i really don't know if i could take that, I might just fall apart or something)


which post with the explanation, is the most relevant,......just post the number, two iddi biddy numwers

[shaayecanaan]

45. The Iranians get compared to the Nazis, and they haven't killed a single Jew...

at least Israel does more to justify the comparison in that they do kill Muslims from time to time.

[delrem]

47. I knew that I'd freak some people out by saying it.

Here's a difference: for the last half of the Shoah Germany was engaged in a War against Russia and the West. What happened was outrageous beyond extremes. It should, I think, give us insight into ourselves.

I agree that there's no quantitative comparison Israel/Germany w.r.t. this issue. But there's a qualitative comparison in kind and that qualitative comparison is one of deliberately enforced subjugation and suffering. In my opinion it's wrong to abstract from this common ground. It's wrong in terms of the supreme principle, of equality of people before the law of the land.

[pelsar]

51. you dont freak us out...you just drink too much kool aid

you clearly part of the flat earth society..and once your clearly in that group, you part of the "fake moon landings" elders of zion control the world group, israelis are the new nazis etc

once your there anything goes.....its a very very large tent

__

but what you dont get....is the freedom to spew such nonsense without proper rebuttal for those intelligent people who do read these posts and in fact have not had the kool-aid and are not interested in such.

[delrem]

70. I don't agree.

Nobody is saying that Israelis are "just like Nazis".

What I'm saying is that a ghetto of national scope is a ghetto of national scope. Ghettos of that scope only exist when they're militarily imposed. That doesn't produce conditions conducive to "democracy" in any "normal" sense. Here normal=free. One does not judge the victims in the Warsaw ghetto the same way one judges folk living in Seattle (tho' even the swell folk in Seattle can get mighty edgy when dealing with traitors, like say somebody who helps a terror outfit to target an "operation".) Likewise one doesn't judge the victims in Gaza and the Occupied territories with such disregard.

Just sayin'...

[delrem]

39. Yes, I'm beginning to see the scope of the Israeli post Zionist left.

The Israeli left gets very little play in the mainstream media, except for the odd article in Haaretz.
The pushback is enormous and doesn't address the actual arguments, which are put in terms of universal human rights and enlightened democracy. The frontline technique of the right-wing pushback is 100% character assassination and smearing.

Two other techniques we see in this thread alone are falsely representing the nature of the argument - in this case misrepresenting my comparison in kind as asserting instead an identity in particulars, so the big words "nazi", "mass starvation", "gas chambers", can be brought in and so I can be smeared as being like a holocaust denier while the original comparison is denied. The other technique is simply out and out denial and falsification of the current status quo, in this case representing Gazans as tending to be obesely content to sate their appetites dining out at luxury restaurants.

To find those last two links, to the study on Gazan obesity and the list of restaurants, required digging through an immense body of material explaining about how the Gazan water supply is 90% corrupted after bombing out the infrastructure and crippling the economy necessary for rebuilding. Material explaining how the Gazan fishing grounds have been truncated, so Gazans are allowed only the spotty inshore sites leaving the IDF patrolled coast entirely for Israel's fleet. Explaining how Gaza isn't allowed to develop its own gas fields, so again denying the income that could be used for rebuilding and building - and leaving those gas fields open for exploitation by Israel. Explaining how it is documented that Israeli gov't officials fine-tuned the siege to keep the Gazans just this side of starvation, the other side of despair, and where every detail of the siege was orchestrated to prove to the Gazans who is master, who has absolute control. Explaining how Gazan exports are simply denied passage. After passing over all this material, which includes mental health studies on Gazan children which show that they do indeed suffer from despair, our hasbarist linked to a couple of puff pieces thrown out to blow it all off. That action, finding those links and ignoring the rest, was a knowing and conscious act.

Regarding the Egypt/Gaza border, the entire body of knowledge of US/Egypt/Israel relations was blown off in a pretense that it didn't exist *at all*. Again, such a denial can only be a knowing and conscious act. So I don't think pelsar is innocent - he's an experienced hasbarist who knowingly and consciously does what he can to support and maintain the status quo w.r.t. the occupation and siege of the Palestinian people.

I don't think arguments from that extreme end of hasbara can win out - in fact I think more and more they backfire. I do think the post Zionist politicians and writers and people that you reference have very varied understandings of what would constitute the exact dimensions (borders, etc) of a post Zionist Israeli state (as they should be!), but they are all united under the same banner of "equality under the law, with no preferences for sect or tribe". That's the winning formula of western enlightenment and it will win out in the end.

[pelsar]

52. you get what you you dish out...

for someone who doesn't even have the ability to just write accurate non-emotional posts, for someone who cannot even answer simple straight questions, for someone who actually calls peoples names on the internet, you really get what the responses you deserve.

but most of all your a very closed minded individual that has a fanatical belief...

So I don't think pelsar is innocent - he's an experienced hasbarist who knowingly and consciously does what he can to support and maintain the status quo w.r.t. the occupation and siege of the Palestinian people.

i'm simply experienced in actually living here...where actions and reactions are clearly seen, where lives are affected when plans dont work (and they never really do). You on the other hand apparently are stuck in your arm chair with very little experience of what happens in conflict arreas where ideologist such as yourself have too much influence and where actual peoples lives are of a lesser importance ( but that is true with all ideologists, your not special....)

[delrem]

54. Heh, OK pelsar, whatever you might mean.

I can't help it. I call it as I see it.

[pelsar]

56. thats obvious - you just dont see, (or you prefer not to)

I can't help it. I call it as I see it

i've noticed that you do much better writing posts with those that agree with you, you don't do too well when your posts are debated, when your beliefs are challenged...

I shall give you some 'fatherly advice" this forum is not for you....you seem to need a "sounding board" where everyone agrees with you except for the occasional troll, with whom you can write them off call them "right wingers" or some other "horrible insult" and others will join in and support you.

you need a forum where people know less, are not interested in knowing anything other then what they want to believe, there you will be accepted and welcomed with your knowledge, they will be impressed with what you write, not knowing nor caring that it holds little water.

[delrem]

57. "this forum is not for you"

That is several times that you've said that, pelsar, after being thoroughly defeated.
Maybe you should consider that.

[pelsar]

58. after being thoroughly defeated. ????

Jesus H Christ...you actually live in this cyber world as if its real...... using the world "defeated"
____

for someone who doesn't even have the ability to answer a few simple questions about the conflict, who has no idea what gaza or the westbank even look like, what the people involved actually believe, i wouldn't put you as someone who has superior knowledge of anything in this conflict.

but to use the word 'defeated".........some more advice: close the computer, stop being such a wimp, join the peace corp, go to sudan, sneak in to gaza (tunnels are good for that, start from the el arish port, you'll avoid the more dangerous Bedouin)...this real experience will help you get a better idea of what words really mean in the real world...

this younger generation......

[delrem]

59. yah: "this forum is not for you". The words of a little prick.

[pelsar]

60. for the forum people..please keep delrems post....

yah: "this forum is not for you". The words of a little prick.

I am 100% against hiding any post, and especially posts that "call people names" what i believe is considered "bullying."

the simple fact that she has a need to call people names, i believe is a good indication of her character/maturity and should be taken into account when discussing things with her

[delrem]

61. Good to hear that you're totally against "alerting", pelsar

[pelsar]

62. always have been n/t

[delrem]

63. Absolutely! I can guarantee it folks.

I wonder why none of the other hasbarists "alerted" on my post?

hehehehehe!!!!!

[leftynyc]

89. Why didn't we alert?

Because you're irrelevant. Is that simple enough for you?

[pelsar]

32. if your insinuating

Last edited Thu Jun 13, 2013, 07:09 AM - Edit history (1)

that we're like nazis...... i've been called a nazi, nazi lite before...doesnt phase me.

but if gaza is similar to the warsaw ghetto them obviously in your eyes, we are those nazi guards..and israel, the country where u see no protests whatsoever are similar to those germans who did nothing....

i never saw the gas chambers in Jibalya, the pits for the bodies in gaza city, the starving gazans dying on the streets in rafah...so i find your attempt to compare a bit absurd.

BUT there is some fine dining to be had in gaza today:
http://www.gazatoday.com/restaurants-cafes/l

With medical bulletins reporting Western levels of obesity in Gaza,
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jobes/2012/213547/

whats left of your comparison is that gaza has a bockade on it.....and that you cant even mention let along protest the 3rd country involved.

_____________________________________


now its your turn..and please dont run away, hide, make up an excuse....
you, obviously (and your fellow ideological friends) can't seem to be able to protest the egyptian closure....have you too be bought off by the zionists? or you just cant protest because their of similar genetic backgrounds? if were nazi like are they "capos? how shall you describe the Egyptians for joining in on this warsaw like ghetto camp?

I know why you and your friends wont protest the egyptians....
but i'll write it out after you decide not "run away and hide" and actually answer that so very very very difficult question.

[delrem]

37. I'm not "insinuating" anything, I'm making a comparison for a reason defined by the OP.

In contrast, you simply deny deny deny the fact of the occupation and siege and the effect they have on the population.

[pelsar]

48. no...i dont deny it...

you just never asked...ask and unlike you i shall answer to the best of my ability any and ALL questions that relate to the topic....

ask away
____

but were not fools...if gaza is like the warsaw ghetto...its only a very very small step to connect the guards of the the "ghettos" to be one and the same...

[azurnoir]

38. your link is from a survey done in 1999-2000 datas kind of old

full title of above link: Overweight and Obesity among Palestinian Adults: Analyses of the Anthropometric Data from the First National Health and Nutrition Survey (1999-2000)

is that why Dov Weinglass "put Gaza on a diet"?

the other one gets a 404 error

[delrem]

40. erase the final "/l" from the link

You get a selection of fine Gazan restaurants, where obese Gazan families can glut out on luxury food while laughing at the international community for being so gullible as to think they suffer while under siege. It's a totally devastating link (sarcasm) akin to an earlier one by, I think, the author of the OP which explains all about how Gazan epicures dine on gastronomical delights. It's a hasbara theme, y'know...

[azurnoir]

41. wow a whole 19 restaurants in Gaza for only 1.5 million people no wonder they're all overweight:)

it's just that usually such stuff is accompanied by pictures of chubby Arab children, that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt there is any malnutrition in Gaza what so ever, guess some are slipping or something

[delrem]

42. you mean laughing frolicking chubby Arab children, eating ice cream!

[azurnoir]

43. on ferris wheels and donkey rides too

if I remember correctly

[pelsar]

49. who says they have only 19 restaurants? or no malnutrition?

it was just a simple counter post to for the attempt to make the gaza in to the warsaw ghetto and to us israelis in to nazis.
___

if you admit there are 5 star hotels, fancy eating places, then the whole 'warsaw ghetto" attempt falls apart in its simplicity and the problem becomes more of hamas distribution than shortage.

trouble with that reality is that has no emotional content and hamas (i.e. Palestinians get the blame and responsibility for their own internal problems and that is a major "no no' since..(It was never explained to me why that is btw..care to try?)

hence the preferred meme...:israelis = nazis Palestenians = heroes
_________

care to admit the real facts that in gaza there are actually 5 star hotels, fancy restuarants, beach houses?....its not difficult its just a few real facts, its part of the reality of gaza today. If you cant even admit to that, doesnt that make your writings of gaza misleading to say the least?

[azurnoir]

64. There are 5 star hotels everywhere even in the most impoverished places in the world

that does not mean the average person isn't suffering. Your link only listed 19 restaurants and cafes, I'm sure there are more local ones

as the rest the reason the Palestinians in Gaza do not get much blame is because they were taken over by Hamas via a coup

no one has said that Israelis = Nazis and Palestinian = hero's that's way over simplified

[pelsar]

65. nor am i saying that there is not suffering in gaza

there is no question in my mind that they're gettiing it from all sides: egypt/israel/hamas.....but once you have 5 start hotels, and fancy restaurants.... the whole "israel wants to put them on a diet" meme is simply another attempt at demonization, something that is great for an emotional appeal or for those that have an agenda, but little to do with reality.

hamas clearly has their own priorities, has enough to take care of their own and distributes their resources as they see fit....nothing to do with israel......
_____________________
anyone claiming that gaza is like the warsaw ghetto is clear going for the israel = nazi theme..its pretty impossible not to have that....

[oberliner]

66. "no one has said that Israelis = Nazis "

There are comparisons of exactly that sort in this forum.

[azurnoir]

67. There is a comparison between seige conditions in Gaza and the Warsaw ghetto

Israel equating to Nazi's is an extrapolation, as the poster did not say that

[delrem]

68. Yes, and also a bit more than that.

In context of my reply to the OP my intent was to compare social organization, both imposed and internal, and the impossibility of attaining to democracy under siege/occupation conditions. In particular, in both case there is/has-been summary execution of traitors, since the traitors, for a price, provide the oppressors with invaluable information regarding targeting. There are huge differences, of course - operations pillar of cloud and cast lead etc. use sophisticated modern technology, drones, combat jets, combat helicopters, tanks, armored bulldozers, etc. In I/P there's no Buchenwald around the corner, just unsustainable and degenerating ghetto conditions. Nevertheless, the need to protect an embattled, unarmed and effectively defenseless population from the depredations of an an all powerful oppressive culture is the same. When the oppressive culture strikes out at the people of such a ghetto for executing traitors, saying that's "unevolved" compared to the wonderful oppressive culture, something's decidedly unhealthy in the reasoning.

I knew that I'd be targeted as the most heinous of antisemites for making the comparison, but I stand by it - but only when read for what it is. The hasbarists who exaggerate/extend/misrepresent my comparison are the same folk who support the occupation and siege, and aren't worth listening to.

[pelsar]

75. of course its an extrapolation..that was the intent

gaza and warsaw have little in common outside of the physical blockade and even that is partial...

the societies are different, the cultures, the options, the actions..hama/gaza has more in common with your standard dictator than with warsaw or ( the west bank for that matter, where israel controls all of the borders)

the obvious and clear attempt is to put israelis in the nazi boots.its pretty much impossible not to, with that kind of comparison

and then to claim that the executions honor those in warsaw?

[Israeli]

79. In my expieriance ...

of living here for 63 years oberliner ... its used frequently and mainly by our very own religious Right wing .

Here are a few examples :



ultra-orthodox Jews used concentration camp symbolism in a protest against secular authorities

That was a theme that ran through the disengagement to the point it lost its ability to shock — the orange stars, the settlers calling IDF soldiers Nazis and even kapos, concentration camp overseers often recruited from the Jews themselves.

In just a handful of examples, rallies against the Oslo movement in 1995 featured pictures of then-prime minister Yitzhak Rabin dressed in SS uniform, and last year, Yaakov Katz of the National Union compared the Eretz Nehederet (“Wonderful Country”) satirical TV programme to Nazi propaganda because of its depiction of religious settlers.

To this day right-wing politicians are fond of referring to the 1967 lines as indefensible “Auschwitz borders”.

It’s partly because the Holocaust is such an intimate part of public life in Israel that politicians so freely call those they disagree with Nazis, and civilians judge soldiers drawn from their own ranks to be kapos.

Ariel’s bill aims to control ownership of the Holocaust and its legacy, rather than honour its victims. But using the law to control public discourse in Israeli society, however offensive, is just another shameful exploitation.

Source: http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2012/01/israel-holocaust-imagery-and-its-place-in-politics/

[pelsar]

82. Im very familiar with them..

no to mention rabin in a nazi uniform...the connection is all the more disgusting with it comes from "our own", but it doesnt negate the same disgust when it comes from the left (no matter, in israel or out)

.....they all deserve the same treatment no matter on what side of the political spectrum they are.

[Israeli]

86. depends pelsar ...

.....they all deserve the same treatment no matter on what side of the political spectrum they are.

I would draw the line at satire thats for sure , I never miss an episode of Eretz Nehederet and this one that they made all the fuss over :
see , http://heebmagazine.com/israel-to-u-s-we-also-have-humorless-jews/5007
was just hysterical and brilliant .

[pelsar]

87. satire is satire....and i agree with you

making fun of everybody and everything is always good...

Eretz Nehederet...one of our best shows (and i though that episode was hilarious)