Iran And Israel Are Similar, After All

[Purveyor]

The two countries are alike historically, in their tension between religious extremism and freedom and in their dramatic struggles between the public’s desire for change and the opposition of calcified elements of the regime.

By Sefi Rachlevsky | Jun.25, 2013

Iran and Israel are more similar than either of their regimes would be willing to admit. They are similar historically, similar in their tension between religious extremism and freedom, similar in their dramatic struggles between the public’s desire for change and the opposition of calcified elements of the regime.

Those who seek to belittle what happened in the Iranian election are trying to hide the sun with their hands. Whatever happens in the future, the fact that a sweeping majority voted for change, and that the regime didn’t play games with the results, is significant. Those who try to claim there’s a formal, deterministic answer to the question of who makes the decisions don’t know what they’re talking about. In the Shas party, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is formally the one who decides, but in reality, party chairman Aryeh Deri has often been the decision maker. In Israel, the cabinet and the prime and defense ministers are formally the ones who decide whether to go to war, but in reality, when all the heads of the security services are opposed ? for instance, to attacking Iran ? this matters.

In Iran, too, despite the formal structure, outgoing President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad carried weight, and he and his messianic cult even came close to taking over the entire government. It’s true that Hasan Rowhani’s election as his successor raises the chances of Iran going nuclear, but it delays the process and creates a good chance of a moderating change in the regime.

And we mustn’t get confused: The danger lies in the combination of messianic extremism and nuclear arms. An Islamic state that contains extremist elements, proliferates nuclear know-how and has dozens of nuclear bombs isn’t a future catastrophe, but something that already exists. It’s called Pakistan. And Israel didn’t attack it.

MORE...

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/iran-and-israel-are-similar-after-all.premium-1.531819

[helomech]

1. REALLY!!!

I'll make this short. Israel has never sought to dominate the region unlike all the arab states. Israel has never stated that the arab states aren't allowed to exist like the muslim states have as their doctrene of destroy Israel and they have never made it their goal to eliminate the arab states

[delrem]

2. Tell that to the Palestinians.

[Ken Burch]

3. Uh...Israel has never sought to dominate the region?

Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:54 PM - Edit history (1)

That's why they have the biggest war machine IN THE REGION?

(correcting for incorrect global info).

[pelsar]

4. you cant even get that right....

check your facts...difficult as it may be, this one is actually simple to check...they you can put in a corrected post

[Ken Burch]

5. The post is corrected(although it's not really THAT much of a difference)

And you really can't claim any longer, at least not since the beginning of the Likud Ascendancy in 1977, that your country's leaders are focused solely on self-defense. You may be, your fellow soldiers may be, but the politicians have far less acceptable ambitions.
And at some point you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that what you and ordinary Israelis want, on the one hand, is NOT what your leaders want. You want peace...but Netanyahu wants "victory", which can only mean he wants an ugly future for all, because Netanyahu and his party have no capacity at all for compassion or magnanimity. You still have your humanity...but at some point your leaders LOST theirs.

There's really no point any longer in you taking orders from them. They don't WANT the war to end. Ever. And they don't give a damn about you or your children.

[pelsar]

6. very good...you corrected your post...

now keep it up....keep sticking to real facts, not what you want to believe....

They don't WANT the war to end. Ever. And they don't give a damn about you or your children.

so your believe that:
the druze, the muslims, the jews in the israeli govt dont give damn about their own children or grandchildren or nieces or nephews or cousins...correct?

just write it out...they dont care if their own families are killed, just as long as they can stay in power and have more wars...that is what you believe correct?

btw, does this include the new politicians as well? the ones who just joined the coalition, they too have no problem in killing off their own families in the endless wars?

dont forget, their kids and grandkids are also in the army..front line units.....

[Ken Burch]

7. The ones making "security" decisions.

The ones who want peace are going to have no say at all.

Netanyahu clearly doesn't want peace.

You can't want peace and still be obsessed with "winning".

[pelsar]

8. "security decisions".....

so how many of these people are there? and how does the government keep on finding them ....as there have been many govts and according to you they all want war and have no problem with their families being killed off in the process.

it does include all of the generals correct? and there have been hundreds...how about "those who want to be generals"...more hundreds

those in govt (the cabinet) more hundreds, including some new politicians, who are clearly also blood thirsty and have no problem with "losing a few family members because they like war.

that is your position is it not?

They don't WANT the war to end. Ever

certainly an interesting take on israeli politicians for the last 36 years...and the israeli people who voted them in. Guess what? You're as bad as anyone else who has a twisted view of israel and its society.

[Ken Burch]

9. I always differentiate between the people and the leaders.

The people are always better THAN their leaders.

And it's never been an unchallengable point that inflexibility is your country's only option.

[shira]

10. You "say" you support the leftwing progressives and liberals in Israel...

...who fight for western liberal, progressive values. But when it comes to the Palestinians or others throughout the mideast, where is your support for the same like-minded people who want western, liberal and progressive values?

[Ken Burch]

12. I support them.

It's just that supporting the Occupation doesn't help them and that this Occupation can't lead to Palestine becoming a democratic state. What is so terrible about saying that the people of Palestine need to be allowed to do that on their own terms?

It can't help those people for anyone from "the West" to talk down to Palestine, to take a tone that says "you MUST listen to us, because we are your betters". When you talk like that, you turn into Reagan in the Eighties or a British imperialist in the 1890's-and no good ever comes from sounding like that.

[Ken Burch]

16. Everything in that post was a lie. Shame on you.

You know perfectly well that I'm not against free speech. I don't have to put denouncing the Palestinian leadership first to prove that. Besides, nothing I could say would make any difference to the Palestinian leadership anyway, or play any meaningful role in bringing them down.

[pelsar]

11. and when those people enter govt?

so according to you when people decide to enter govt, and achieve positions of power and influence they are automatically transferred in to some kind of "evil incarnate" that no longer cares for their familes and will sacrifiice them for their own power (at least in israel...)

they are no longer "part of the people" did i get that right?
_______________________

on the fun side there is something to govts being insulated from the "people' which is true of professional politicians such as what you have in the states and in israel..which is why term limits and less federal govt is always a good idea...more power to the people on the local level is always a good idea (oops sounds like a conservative/anarchist/libertarian/tea party platform i'm advocating here....)

____

And it's never been an unchallengable point that inflexibility is your country's only option.
look we know that you despise historical facts, that you make them up when necessary and ignore those you dont like, that has been established over and over again.....but to say israel isnt flexible? its let in refugees, closed the gates, conquered land, given back land, built settlements, destroyed settlements, made peace, made war..facts are facts

[Ken Burch]

13. I didn't say that Israel had never been flexible in the past. Don't put words in my mouth.

Just that your leaders have become massively, and probably permanently inflexible now, and are totally unwilling to change. Netanyahu will NEVER back down from any of his current, arrogant demands. He doesn't CARE about how many of your fellow soldiers he gets killed-he couldn't care and still stay with his existing policies in the West Bank. You can't keep ordering wars and still care about the war dead. Israeli war deaths are no more to Netanyahu than the death of Cindy Sheehan's son in Iraq was to George W. Bush. And, of course, none of the deaths of any Palestinians(most of whom AREN'T terrorists or anything other than innocent bystanders)are anything to him at all. He thinks they all have it coming.

The notion that Israeli leaders have some special level of morality beyond that of the leaders of any other country has been a myth for years now-you are just a statistic to them, if you're that.

Why even pretend otherwise? Only people who oppose war care when anyone they don't know dies in it. Hawks never weep for the people they send to their deaths, or the families that will be ruined forever by the loss of spouses or children.

I respect your commitment to your country and your cause, but your leaders don't. If they did, they'd actually be trying to find a way to END the war...they wouldn't keep building settlements, they wouldn't keep the Occupation in place and they wouldn't keep doing all that they can to make life miserable for the people of Palestine. Wise up.

[pelsar]

14. wow...you have little understanding of democracy...zilch, nada, none, zero

Just that your leaders have become massively, and probably permanently inflexible now

our 'leaders" change....thats what happens in a democracy, with new people entering govt...as in the last election with the new parties. So how these new people are "permanently inflexible for the next 1000 years is beyond me....but you do have that ability to read the future


and of course you're still making things up..at least your consistent:
The notion that Israeli leaders have some special level of morality beyond that of the leaders of any other country has been a myth for years now-you are just a statistic to them, if you're that.

your still with the concept that if some enters govt service they are sprayed with some kind of insulation that makes them impervious to caring about anything but themselves...i get it

Only people who oppose war care when anyone they don't know dies
now thats joke.....now thats a real fantasy if I ever heard one.I'm sure these people are tearing their hearts out with the 100,000 deaths in Syria......the continuing deaths in sudan, etc the protestors for these and other wars are just overwhelming arent they....

[azurnoir]

17. Israel's leaders sort of changed with the last election however Netanyahu easily remained

in line with the will of the Israeli people

[pelsar]

18. so do you agree with ken....

Just that your leaders have become massively, and probably permanently inflexible now, and are totally unwilling to change.

in other words do you agree with such an absurd statement or do you break from the "progressive" plantation and disagree......

[azurnoir]

19. perhaps you should reread my comment

I really do not think you understood it

[pelsar]

20. i read it...thats not what i asked

i think its far more interesting to find out if you publicly agree or disagree with Kens assertion.....

actually i believe you wont answer...leaving the progressive plantation here is almost a cardinal sin, but maybe you'll surprise me

agree with him or not?

[azurnoir]

21. I was pointing out that Israeli's have chosen the same Right winger to be their leader for 3rd time

not agreeing or disagreeing with Ken

[pelsar]

22. i understood that....

that was pretty obvious.. ...just as i know you wont be able to write whether or not you agree or disagree with ken

its just fun watching u avoid answering......

[azurnoir]

23. well the gist of his comment IMO is that Netanyahu doesn't care how many lives

keeping the status quo costs and to a degree I agree, with a caveat he doesn't seem to care much how many Palestinian lives it costs, now when it comes to Israeli lives that becomes more shall we say nuanced

[pelsar]

25. he was clear..its beyond netanyahu....

Just that your leaders have become massively, and probably permanently inflexible now


hence the words :leaders and permanent.

if he was talking about the present govt, he would have written it....of course ken does have a habit of backtracking when his broad statements of pseudo facts are brought out, but it has to be brought to his attention in a very clear manner:
____

why try to re-interpret what he says (yes i know why, still cant disagree with a fellow progressive....one of the holy tenates here)

perhaps you should simply ask him?....something like this:
hey ken, as a fellow progressive i'm curious, do you mean all future israeli govts until the end of time? or just this one?

(i dont believe in all my years here, that a pro Palestinian progressive actually asked for clarity on a statement from another pro Palestinian progressive, either, let alone have a public disagreement...)
leaving the reservation obviously is just not done (whats the punishment?)

[azurnoir]

27. Oh my

why try to re-interpret what he says (yes i know why, still cant disagree with a fellow progressive....one of the holy tenates here)

you must not be paying attention then, we disagree all of the time but in the same vein have you ever asked a ProIsrael poster to clarify?

[pelsar]

28. rarely.....

usually the discussions are relativly simplistic with little actual discussion within (as i'm having with israeli) a specific camp. Infact i cannot remember any discussion on the pro side discussing the pros and cons of the one state vs two amongst yourselves.

but when asked (also very rarely) i will give my opinion whether it agrees or not, but i'm not asked much.
at least not like i'm asking you here

very directly.....

[azurnoir]

29. I answered you

I did not interpret Ken's comment in the same manner as you though and that seems to be a problem for you or something

[pelsar]

30. i caught it

since i'm not sure ken will answer me...perhaps you could ask him?...hes not exactly a politician that is not here.

you can ask ken directly what he meant?....when he wrote permanently did he mean just with Netanyahu or every israeli pm that comes after him


isn't that really really simple?

[geek tragedy]

24. Very different--a theocracy in Iran and a racist apartheid regime in Israel. nt

[leveymg]

26. He's right about Israel and Iran being flip sides of a coin, and excellent point about Pakistan.

Theocracies, fanatical nationalism, and nuclear arms generally don't coexist well, but then there's Pakistan to prove us all wrong.