If Co-Existence is Impossible, Then What?

[shira]

This is an argument for 2 states. Not a greater Israel, nor a greater Palestine. Just separation.

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/if-co-existence-is-impossible-then-what/2014/07/02/

....There have been so many terrorist murders, so many murders of children. The Ma’alot massacre, The bus of blood, the Haran family, the Sbarro bombing, the Dolphinarium, the Fogel family. The Palestinians and their supporters tell you it is “resistance to occupation” but in fact it is pure evil, hate made substance. Hate made flesh.

The Left says that it is our fault that they are doing these things because we are not giving them what they want. But what if what they want is to kill us? Societies protect themselves against murderous criminals by killing or imprisoning them in order to separate them from normal society.

“If a man comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first.” Good advice, but how do we follow it when a whole culture has been created out of the idea that they should kill us? The Palestinian people have demonstrated by the whole-hearted support shown for the kidnappers, the murderers, that they are satisfied with the path they have taken, the path of hate.

The problem is not a few extremists or criminals or terrorists who need to be killed or captured. The problem is a culture whose essence is to negate ours. These acts will not stop until the culture changes or dies out, or we completely separate ourselves from it. I don’t think our society can tolerate living as a target of terrorism forever.

....

The lesson I have drawn from these murders is that she is not correct. It won’t work. This marriage cannot be saved. The educational enterprise of Yasser Arafat and his followers, aided by the West, has succeeded — perhaps beyond expectations. There is no going back. The Palestinian Arabs will not, cannot, coexist with the Jewish people.

[Jefferson23]

1. "Just separation." You are out doing yourself, shira. n/t

[shira]

3. Yes, separation via 2 states. And? n/t

[Jefferson23]

4. I don't think that is what your OP is hoping for. n/t

[Shaktimaan]

14. Agreed

Totally disgusting.

[Jefferson23]

16. You changed your mind?

It's the very first sentence.

This is an argument in favor of two states.

What's unclear about that? ( end)

That is what I read when I opened your response. Then another saying you agreed with me.

[Shaktimaan]

17. Yup

I read the link. I posted hastily. Hence I changed the post. That first sentence wasn't to be found anywhere. And the essay clearly advocated ethnic cleansing on a huge scale.

You are totally right for once. This article is obscene.

[Jefferson23]

18. That was weird how I was able to see both comments...I have had other odd glitches recently

with the reply box.

[Shaktimaan]

15. No.

That's not what the op is arguing for at all.

[shira]

19. The way I read it is that Israel must continue to control the Jordan Valley....

....and the high ground overlooking Israel (major settlement areas). IMO, that's an argument for unilateral withdrawal that would inevitably lead to Palestinian independence - worse case scenario, another Gaza.

Are you seeing ethnic cleansing, because I don't.

[Shaktimaan]

21. Read it again.

It was spelled out.

[shira]

22. Okay, I read it for the 3rd time. And I just realized there was a page 2.....

This reminds me of Martin Sherman's "solution" in response to greater Israel advocates and 2-staters:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/181253#.U7S_BI1dWcw

After that, said Sherman, the massive budget that had been provided to UNWRA should be transferred to a fund that will allow Palestinian ex-refugees to resettle in a new home of their choice. The fund should provide enough money to resettle families and clans, providing them with positive living, work, and educational opportunities in Arab or Western countries.

Once those arrangements are in place, he said, it will be possible to approach Arab families and clans with offers that will be worth their while. According to Sherman, an offer like this to the heads of extended families among Palestinians would be embraced.

This is not an “expulsion” or “transfer” plan, said Sherman, but a humanitarian one “that will provide benefits for the Arab population, as well as for the countries that agree to receive them as new, wealthy residents.”

Sherman's idea is similar to one proposed by MK Moshe Feiglin (Likud-Beiteinu) last year. Speaking at the 2013 Sovereignty Conference, Feiglin said that Israel should offer each Palestinian Authority Arab $500,000 to leave Israel. “The country pays 10% of its gross national product every year to maintain the ‘two-state solution’ and the Oslo Accords,” Feiglin said, including money for security fences and checkpoints, Iron Dome missile defense systems and guards whom he said are posted “at every café.” Feiglin said the same money could be used to pay every PA Arab half a million dollars to leave Israel.

[geek tragedy]

28. That is ethnic cleansing. Pure and simple. nt

[shira]

36. I thought ethnic cleansing was forced deportation...

Last edited Thu Jul 3, 2014, 03:11 PM - Edit history (1)

Take, for example, the Gaza withdrawal of 2005 when all Jews left Gaza. That was an example of ethnic cleansing. All Jews were forced to leave. However, if they had been given a choice between staying & being paid compensation in order to leave, I'm not sure that could be described as ethnic cleansing.

How am I wrong?

The Feiglin plan calls for $500K per Palestinian family to leave the W.Bank. I'd say there's a good chance more Jewish settler families there would take him up on that offer, and not one would cry ethnic-cleansing. After all, it's their choice - right?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

56. Really? Wow.

Forced deportation back into Israel?

Do you really believe what you jest wrote?

[Shivering Jemmy]

2. No it's an argument to keep the territories

And exile the Palestinians.

[shira]

20. Where do u see an argument for exile of the Palestinians?

I ask sincerely b/c I just read the entire article again and don't see that.

[shira]

23. Nevermind. Just realized there was a page 2. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

5. Why not just call it apartness?

[PCIntern]

6. I have a solution, shira:

We will allow seven members of DU vote on whether the Israelis should just pack up and leave or not. The outcome is binding.

just in case...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

7. The Israelis need to leave the West Bank

and stop playing house on the future Palestinian state.

And if Israel were really mature sbout it they would never have tried for a land grab.

[PCIntern]

9. and then after they leave the West Bank

hostilities will resume and then they will "have" to leave the adjoining territory. Why don't you set an example and give your land back to the appropriate Native American tribe and stop playing house on their land? No?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

10. Occupation does not equall colonization.

The Israelis need to leave the West Bank.

Israel has territorial boundaries. It needs to make sure that it citizens reside within them and stop treating the Palestinians like the European settlers treated the American First Nations.

[PCIntern]

11. Yeah. It's a real shame that those territorial boundaries

were never appreciated by the Pan-Arabists starting in 1948. And again. And again. And again.

So enough was quite enough. Fruits of War.

Oh and on edit: you think what happened to the Native Americans is that they were a victim of "colonization" rather than "occupation"? Yes, when YOU do it, it's Colonization...when Jews do it it's Occupation.

[geek tragedy]

25. Which is your preference: apartheid or ethnic cleansing?

Native Americans do have the right to vote for federal offices here. So, sorry Israel doesn't get to compare itself to the US. Slobo's Serbia or Botha's South Africa-- which of those two is your future?

[PCIntern]

29. Wow.

So this is how you're going to justify the landgrab- according to your definition - here?

[geek tragedy]

30. You're the one advocating that Israel keep the

West Bank as the "fruits of war."

Unless you favor giving all West Bank Palestinians the right to vote in Israeli elections (ha!) that leaves either the Botha option or the Slobo option. The article posted here argues for the Slobo option.

Do you agree with the article, or do you play for Team Botha instead?

[PCIntern]

32. Absurd logic.

Not even a passable analogy. We have some nice consolation prizes for you: a trip for your family to the Gaza Strip.

[geek tragedy]

34. Do you favor ethnic cleansing in the West Bank to

remove the Palestinians?

Or is your preference for Israel to rule them by military force ?

Those are the only two options you have when you decide to keep the West Bank.

Unless you want what's behind door #3-letting all Palestinians vote in Israeli elections, which would end Israel as a Jewish state.

Obviously, you're not going to go with #3, which would keep Israel democratic but not Jewish. So, the question is which form of "Jewish but not democratic" do you prefer?

[PCIntern]

35. "Obviously"...to you perhaps...

there just might be some other ways out. For one, perhaps your way, the Israelis could just pack up and leave and move to Madagascar. Or Mars. But then, if they moved to Mars, you'd be up in arms saying that that's someone else's planet and they'd have to give it back or else.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

39. "when YOU do it, it's Colonization...when Jews do it it's Occupation."

Well, pci, "I" wasn't around a few hundred years ago, and the practices that were in place would never be allowed today, but there are always the bigots, KKKlansmen and profiteers who used all sorts of mechanisms to destroy the First Nations.

What is crazy troubling about your post is that "when Jews do it" it seems to be morbidly acceptable to you.

That places your weltanschauung in the dark ages before enlightenment.

Do you view the Palestinians of today as the European settler saw the First Nations centuries of years ago: a crop to be exploited or mowed down? Savages?

Pretty scary shit, pci.

[PCIntern]

41. You mean when Jews kidnap three Palestinians, kill them

in cold blood, and rejoice in their deaths?

Tell me when that happened...

That might be the most ridiculous post I've ever read.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

43. I asked you a direct question, pci. Please don't do the jig around it and make excuses.

You're a poor dancer.

[PCIntern]

68. You're on the historical losing side and you're

a flawed proponent of a disastrously primitive civilization which is holding on by the thread woven by professional shills Too bad: the Israelis are miles ahead of your ilk.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

70. I asked you a direct question, pci, and you have run away from it. That much is clear.

As to the losing side, BDS in all its forms is growing.

Please kid yourself that it is not. I love comedy.


Oh, and thank you for the bigoted remark about the Palestinians. It fits well with your decayed morals.

[PCIntern]

72. OOOOOOOOOOH!!!

MY morals are decayed...yes...of course.

Let's personalize this some more: what you want is for me to retaliate so you can alert the moderators. You ain't worth it

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

73. "what you want is for me to retaliate so you can alert the moderators."

What I was looking for was a cogent response from you. None has surfaced let except for bigotry and an evasive two-step.

Again, you are a horrible dancer.

[shaayecanaan]

66. re

You mean when Jews kidnap three Palestinians, kill them in cold blood, and rejoice in their deaths?

Tell me when that happened...

You mustn't have followed the news this week.

[geek tragedy]

27. What makes you think Kahanism is a good

fit for a liberal website, sir?

[PCIntern]

31. There you go again

Firstly, how dare you question my liberal bona fides? Secondly, three children are kidnapped and murdered and you are name-calling those who mourn for the victims? You either really don't get what is occurring over there or you're a Sympathizer of Terrorism. Which is it?

[geek tragedy]

33. This thread is about an article advocating ethnic cleansing.

Last edited Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:31 AM - Edit history (1)

You have repeatedly sneered at the idea of Israel ever leaving the West Bank.

Calling for the annexation of the West Bank is not mourning. Neither is it liberal.

I am seeking clarification from you on your "occupy the West Bank now, occupy it tomorrow, occupy it forever" stance--do you favor forcing the Palestinians to leave (Team Slobo) or permanently ruling over them as a master rules a slave (Team Botha).

But, I am willing to concede that you may be a liberal if you can provide a coherent explanation of how you advocate policy vis a vis the Palestinians that sounds neither in Kahane or in Jim Crow.

[Shaktimaan]

13. It's obviously not so simple.

A few relevant facts.


When the occupation and colonization began there were no plans to build a palestinian state in the wb or gaza or EJ. Jordan had annexed them. Except Gaza.

The Arabs living there were all Jordanian citizens.

The land settlers moved to were areas Jews had always lived in. Some settlers were original inhabitants moving back to places they were forced to leave.

The settlements weren't built on land occupied by Arabs. This ended up not being 100% true. But it was the plan. And for the most part it was the reality. Settlements were on hilltops. Arabs live in the valleys.

Israel doesn't have defined borders w the WB. The green line is specifically not a border by design.

Jews arguably still have a legal right to settle the area designated by the league of nations and British mandate.

The current situation dictates a settlement freeze and dismantling of most settlement blocks to advance any legitimate peace accord. This doesn't mean that every pre 67 area should automatically revert to palestinian sovereignty though. Places like EJ will need to be shared by both nations. Any honest appraisal of the issues would understand this reality. Places like the western wall simply can't just be entrusted to the Palestinians on good faith. Nor does it make sense for them to administer places like that. Their track record wrt such things is abysmal.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

40. "It's obviously not so simple."

What a load of apologist drivel.

What an piss-poor excuse for colonialism, apartheid and good ole fashioned bigotry.


The current situation dictates BDS until Israel withdraws.

At least we know where you stand, shak.

[PCIntern]

42. When Israel withdraws into the Mediterranean, you mean.

We certainly know where YOU stand...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

44. Ahhh the clutching of pearls has begun I see.

No, pci. When Israel removes its citizens, and I mean all of the illegal settlers, back into Israel from the West Bank...that is what I mean.

A three-year-old could understand that.

[shira]

46. If you're for 2 states, then enough of the BDS bullshit. Norm Finkelstein.....

....loathes the hypocritical posers from BDS who pretend to be for human rights and international law.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

48. BDS is a means to an end...

of apartheid...

of colonialism...

of occupation...


BDS is growing, in all its many flavours shira, and there is frankly nothing that crying against it will do.

Israel needs to withdraw from the West Bank and end this nonsense.

[shira]

50. BDS calls for Israel's end. There's nothing Israel can do to appease BDS'ers...

So how does this work for you?

You'll support BDS until there's 2 states, and then start opposing BDS calls for Israel's destruction once the Palestinians get their state?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

51. Instead of twisting youself in knots

about me you should really be thinking long and hard that Israel, right now, is on the wrong side of history.

Occupation must end.

Colonization must end.

Apartheid must end.

BDS.

[shira]

52. Calling for an end to Israel is being on the wrong side of history

Do you deny that the goal of BDS is to bring about Israel's destruction?

Here it is, in their own words...
http://www.stopbds.com/?page_id=48

So once again BDS aims to end Israel:

Agree or Not?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

53. Cherry picking again, shira?

You could always go to the real BDS site and read up on what they stand for, but if you do go to read don't forget to read page two.

There's just no way for you to habara Israel out from the hot mess it has created.

Learn to live with that.

[shira]

54. Answer my question. Do you deny that the aim of BDS is Israel's destruction?

Again, here are the biggest leaders of BDS advocating very clearly for the end of Israel:

http://www.stopbds.com/?page_id=48

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

55. My poor sweet shira...

Try as you will to badmouth the goal of all the different flavours of BDS, by using an anti-BDS site as bait is just comical.

As I have stated there are many flavours of BDS, and I am sure that the tempest in a teacup that you are swirling around is just another attempt to discredit the critics of the apartheid state known as Israel.

As I have afore mentioned you would be better off realizing that Israel has made a really dumb mistake with the whole apartheid picnic, and now it is time to pack up and go home.

[shira]

57. Norman Finkelstein: "BDS is dishonest, not fooling anyone, calls 4 Israel's destruction..."

Why don't you advise poor, sweet Norman Finkelstein not to spin the same arguments as an anti-BDS site that "cherry-picks", as bait. Now THAT would be comical.

"I’ve earned my right to speak my mind, and I’m not going to tolerate what I think is silliness, childishness, and a lot of leftist posturing.

I mean we have to be honest, and I loathe the disingenuous. They don’t want Israel. They think they are being very clever; they call it their three-tier. We want the end of the occupation, the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever because they know the result of implementing all three is what, what is the result?

You know and I know what the result is. There’s no Israel! And if you don’t want the same framework then stop talking about the law and stop trying to be so clever. Because you’re only so clever in your cult. The moment you step out you have to deal with Israeli propaganda. And here they have a case.

They say no they’re not really talking about rights. They’re talking about they want to destroy Israel. And in act I think they’re right I think that’s true. I’m not going to lie. But this kind of duplicity and disingenuous, “oh we’re agnostic about Israel.” No you’re not agnostic! You don’t want it! Then just say it! But they know full well: If you say it you don’t have a prayer reaching a broad public. Because that’s where the public is right now."

And you still continue on against the "apartheid circus" despite the following....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113463152#post102

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

58. It truly will be hard on you when

BDS grows as the world loses patience with Israel.

Regardless of your spin and cherry picked articles it won't change what Israel has coming: a real tempest of its own making.

[shira]

59. Working towards Israel's destruction (as BDS does) is not progressive or liberal.

It's a call to war & genocide, which is magnitudes worse than apartheid.

It's a genocidal picnic. A genocidal circus.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

62. Keep on spinning your Bs all you want shira.

Israel cannot hide behind victimhood when they are the victimizers.

BDS.

[Israeli]

60. Yup....

Portugal also warns citizens of business with settlements :

Wednesday, 2 July, Portugal joined the list of European countries warning its citizens against doing business with illegal Israeli settlements. Another 10 European countries are expected to issue similar recommendations by the end of the week.

The warning, which appeared on Portugal’s Foreign Ministry website, uses similar language adopted by France, Spain and Italy last week in warnings against doing business with illegal Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and in the Golan Heights.

See : http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/features/economy-of-the-occupation/8247-portugal-also-warns-citizens-of-business-with-settlements

[shira]

61. Gush Shalom is against BDS, as Uri Avnery has made clear

Let's not confuse boycotts of settlements with BDS, okay?

BDS also advocates for 1-state. As you said the other day, Gush Shalom advocates for 2 states.

No sense muddying the waters.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

63. It all works out to the same thing, shira.

The world is sending Israel a message: divest yourself from the West Bank.

[Israeli]

65. Yup n/t

[Israeli]

64. :) .....

Just who is " muddying the waters " here ??

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1400845261/

Almost all Palestinians want unity, but ideological differences run deep (though in practice the differences are now much shallower). But even if some kind of unity is achieved and recognized by the international community against Israel’s wish, what can the Palestinians actually do without violence?

They could, with the help of Saudi Arabia and the military junta in Egypt, establish some direct contact between the West Bank and Gaza and break the Israeli blockade on the Strip.

They can apply for admittance to some more international agencies and for more positive resolutions of the UN General Assembly, where the US veto does not apply but whose decisions have very little concrete effect.

They can encourage European countries and the international BDS movement to reinforce the boycott of the settlements or of Israel itself.

Altogether, not very much. The stewing period will enlarge even more the imbalance of power between “both” parties.

If the stewing lasts long enough, the “moderate” leaderships of Fatah and Hamas will be swept away, and Palestinian violence will raise its head again.

Conclusion: “Bothness”, which looks so fair and impartial, is in effect a policy of 100% support for the Israeli Right.

[PCIntern]

67. Keep telling yourself that

That's why war was declared and terrorism was performed prior to 1967. Enen a two year-old would understand that. Your infantile snark is not at all appreciated and the descent into this vein is because your so-called argument doesn't hold a dram of water.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

69. "and terrorism was performed prior to 1967..."

Let's talk about terrorism prior to 1967. Let's talk about Irgun if you dare.

[PCIntern]

71. Sure will...

yep, you Arab-apologists really hate it when we play the same game you do. It fucking KILLS you to think that Jews won't just lie down and die. You changed the subject as you always do: it won't work and you have lost. Get it through your head: you have lost for your lifetime so get past it and become a Cubs fan or get behind some other hopeless cause.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

74. And yet you really didn't mention that Irgun was a Jewish terrorist group that targetted

what it saw as British occupation of their assumed homeland. Bombings, killings are alright with some as long as they can whitewash history later.

"Arab-apologists?" It's really hard for you to admit that there is such a thing as Palestinains, isn't it?

It fucking KILLS you to think that Jews won't just lie down and die.

It really saddens me that Israel and its cheerleaders approve of occupation, colonialism and apartheid.

Get it through your head: you have lost for your lifetime...

BDS and calls for divestment of Israel, the apartheid state are growing regardless of how you see or want to admit it. Must be scarey for you to ignore reality like that.

Perhaps after Israel starts to feel the pain of sanctions and decides that illegal settlements must be removed you can "sit Shiva" over the death of apartheid: seeing how Israeli has schooled you in what "Sitting Shiva" really entails.


In the end I am not a big sports fan so insulting the Cubs in a non-starter for me. Even the Red Sox can turn things around after many years. Think about that.

[shira]

45. BDS calls for Israel's destruction. Norm Finkelstein admits it....

You're right.

Those calling for BDS are indeed calling for Israeli withdrawal to the sea.

#!


Finkelstein calls bullshit on BDS posers trying to be clever pretending to uphold international law....

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

49. Sanctions are coming sooner or later

shira, and throwing poop around to see what sticks is not going to help.

Israel better realize this before it finds itself alone.

[geek tragedy]

24. Care to comment on the article's call for mass ethnic cleansing?

Does the idea of Israel going the way of Serbia under Slobo offend you?

[azurnoir]

12. the term 'apartness' applies here

maybe if we say it in English it will be more acceptable

[geek tragedy]

26. It used to be that the Zionist side of the argument

was argued by people who at least tried to be liberals. Now it's Kahanists.

[LeftishBrit]

38. There are plenty of leftwing Zionists left, I can assure you.

According to the Israeli polls, support for both the far right (Jewish home) and the moderate left (Labor and Meretz) is increasing.

[geek tragedy]

47. Labor is a joke at this point.

Meretz is politically irrelevant.

[LeftishBrit]

37. This is a nasty article

It starts out reasonable-seeming - yes, if a marriage is clearly not working the best solution is an amicable and fair divorce, aka two states - but it ends up fanatical, basically recommending ethnic cleansing.

I note that this is the 'FresnoZionism' blogger. I commented a few years ago on the extremism of his blog, and he doesn't seem to have improved.

[Spider Jerusalem]

75. Probably because the state of Israel...

is behaving like what they are: European colonialists driven by the idea of Manifest Destiny; "Greater Israel, from the river to the sea". It's no wonder that there's so much support for Israel in the USA. (It's also not helpful to conflate the state of Israel with "the Jewish people"; there are more Jews outside Israel than in it.)

[Shaktimaan]

76. R u serious?

Manifest destiny? European? Is this really what you think Zionisms philosophy is?

[Spider Jerusalem]

77. Whether it's the philosophy of Zionism or not...

it's effectively the policy of the state of Israel, so far as settlement expansion into the occupied territories goes. (And Zionism is best thought of as an expression of 19th century European ethnic nationalism; that's where Herzl got the ideas that became "Der Judenstaat", after all.)

[Shaktimaan]

78. No.

No it's really not. I'm not sure where you'd even get an idea like that.

Zionism is best thought of as an expression of 19th century European ethnic nationalism

BEST thought of? You mean it's best for those who have an interest in discrediting it I assume?

Zionism is like any other form of ethnic nationalism in that trying to minimize any identity down to a single phrase will seldom give you much information of educational value. Most states are formed of ethnic nations. I'm not sure why you seem to consider this a slight.

[Spider Jerusalem]

79. Not really

the very concept of ethnic nationalism is broadly discredited in the West in favour of civic nationalism. Ethnic nationalists, in the West? The Ku Klux Klan, the British National Party, Le Front National. Ethnic nationalism is fundamentally racist and exclusionary.

[Shaktimaan]

80. You missed a few.

Armenia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Romania, Serbia, Japan, Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand, Bangladesh, Poland, Ukraine, Italy, Spain, Iran, and Turkey. But there are certainly more. Most of those I listed actually offer automatic or rapid citizenship to members of diasporas of their own dominant ethnic group.

Ethnic nationalism IS fundamentally exclusionary, that goes without saying. But racist? Nations that form from cultural, historic, linguistic or other similarities existed before modern nation-states developed. There's nothing inherently racist about their existence, and their right to practice self-determination is seen as a natural, fundamental right in the west.

Using examples like the kkk demonstrates a lack of understanding wrt this subject entirely.

You consider all forms of ethnic nationalism outdated? Ok, does that include opposing the Kurdish attempts at gaining independence? What about the palestinian state? Do you oppose that as well? If so what would you otherwise suggest?