Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumReports: Hamas Sending Civilians to Targeted Locations as Human Shields
The New York Times reported yesterday on Israels policy of warning residents of targeted buildings to leave for their own safety.
A Gaza resident, Salah Kaware, told his story.
Seven people died, Mr. Kaware said, a figure also stated by the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza, which also said that 25 people were wounded. The Israeli military said that targeted houses belonged to Hamas members involved in launching rockets or other military activity, and that they had been used as operations rooms.
Similarly The Washington Post reported, a crowd of young men ran into the house and up to the roof, thinking they would either protect the house from another strike or die defying the Israeli bombardment. After reporting that a man who survived the strike claimed that there were no members of the resistance in the building, the Post continued:
http://www.thetower.org/0663-reports-hamas-sending-civilians-to-targeted-locations-as-human-shields/
Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri: Human-Shield Policy Is Effecive
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)voluntary human shields make them selves participants in the conflict. As such, they lose their protection from direct attack.
http://www.law.unimelb.edu.au/files/dmfile/download5b901.pdf
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)scroll down to conclusion which really isn't conclusive at all
hack89
(39,171 posts)it is pretty clear what direction international law is trending. It is not a clear cut picture and there is disagreement however.
Logic dictates that active participation in a conflict removes some if not all of your protections. The entire purpose of the Geneva accords is to protect innocent civilians. Flocking to shield military targets is not an innocent act.
Can we at least agree that Hamas encouraging people to act as human shields is a violation of international law.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the document which cautions against reclassifying civilians
Response to hack89 (Reply #2)
cerveza_gratis This message was self-deleted by its author.
hack89
(39,171 posts)it the military situation dictates a strike on a target then the human shields are SOL.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Lots of things are legal that are morally and ethically indefensible. I would have imagined that someone with an equality avatar would understand this fact.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 10, 2014, 08:06 PM - Edit history (1)
Not only can they stop shooting rockets but they can also stop building military installations in civilian areas. Barring that, they could evacuate civilians from military targets instead of encouraging them to act as human shields. A rational person can only conclude that maximizing civilian deaths is part of their strategy.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Tell me. You're a veteran, what would you do? That is, if you KNOW the targeted area is full of civilians, do you go ahead and blow them up anyway? Is it better to kill all of them to get that one guy you're after, or to risk him escaping by not dropping the bomb? it seems the sort ofthing that has an official handbook answer (or should, anyway) but i'm asking you as a person with a conscience - which is better?
hack89
(39,171 posts)Would you build your war plan around human shields? Hamas started the war. They are responsible.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)or you do have an answer, and it's just not one you're comfortable sharing on DU?
if I were a Hamas commander, what would I do? There's an interesting question! Being a Hamas commander, one assumes i'm not a Gnadhi kinda guy. And even if I were, Israel would sooner shoot me than talk to me since, you know, Hamas commander. so, there's not going to be an answer of "golly, I'd lay down arms and seek peace!" answer.
sabbat hunter
(6,825 posts)warns any civilians to get out, tries to target the military targets as precisely as possibly. Hamas/IJ/etc on the other hand do what ever they can to maximize civilian casualties/terror, by attacking civilian targets, putting military rockets in civilian areas, bringing civilians in as shields.
How about Hamas stops being cowards and hiding behind civilians and targeting civilian targets with their rockets?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)off in the far wilds of the Naqab, I presume?
isn't the Lods military airbase like, right next to the civilian ben-gurion airport, in tel aviv?
where are all these surface-to-surface missiles being launched from? israel doesn't have a whole lot of "unoccupied middle of nowhere" to go around - more than Gaza does to be sure, but not much
where does israel keep its communication centers, barracks, artillery stockpiles, etc? They're pretty much all in civilian areas - or at least near enough to be a threat if fired toward.
Also, why are there munitions factories built into Arab neighborhoods in Haifa?
speaking of northern Israel, what was with the IDF placing their firing positions in kibbutzim during the 2006 war against Lebanon... and inviting little kids to come out and draw on the munitions stockpiles?
Why are out "pro-Israel" posters dancing and hooting every time a rocket gets through the iron dome defense system, as if it's a great triumph for their cause? Aren't dead Jews - well, potentially dead Jews, so far - supposed to be a bad thing? it looks like a fucking party from some of these posters though. you'd think the rockets were delivering peanut M&M's or something.
Fozzledick
(3,859 posts)What Hamas is practicing is nothing less than human sacrifice for political purposes.
Response to Fozzledick (Reply #7)
cerveza_gratis This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Background on Human Shields
Published:
1 Jan 2011
On 6 October 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice ruled that it was illegal for the army to use Palestinian civilians during military actions. The court ruled on a petition submitted by Adalah in the name of B'Tselem and six other human rights organizations in 2002. The petition followed the army's use of Palestinian civilians as human shields since the beginning of the second intifada, primarily during operations carried out in densely populated Palestinian areas, as occurred in Operation Defensive Shield.
The method was the same each time: soldiers picked a civilian at random and forced him to protect them with his body, and do dangerous tasks for them. For example, soldiers have ordered Palestinians to:
enter buildings to check if they are booby-trapped, or to remove the occupants;
remove suspicious objects from roads;
stand inside houses where soldiers set up military positions, so that Palestinians would not fire at them;
and walk in front of soldiers to shield them from gunfire, while the soldiers point a gun to their backs and sometimes fire over their shoulders.
Background on Human Shields
The soldiers in the field did not initiate this practice; rather, the order to use civilians as a means of protection was made by senior army officials.
In August 2002, Nidal Abu Mheisen, a 19-year-old Palestinian from Tubas, was killed by Palestinian gunfire when soldiers forced him to serve as a human shield.
Despite the High Court's decision and army orders given before and after it, security forces continued to use Palestinians as human shields, although the number of cases dropped. In 2007, for example, B'Tselem documented 14 such instances. The organization wrote to the Military Advocate General Corps, demanding an investigation into each of the cases. B'Tselems monitoring indicates that a Military Police investigation was opened in 13 of them: in two of the cases, the investigation is continuing; in seven cases, the file was closed; and four were transferred to a military advocate for a decision whether to file charges.
During the course of Operation Cast Lead, which took place in Gaza in January 2009, B'Tselem and other organizations were informed of cases in which soldiers used Palestinians as human shields. In one case, two soldiers were prosecuted for ordering a nine-year-old boy gunpoint to open a bag that they suspected was booby-trapped. The two were given a three-month conditional sentence and demoted from staff sergeant to private.
http://www.btselem.org/human_shields
Response to Jefferson23 (Reply #9)
cerveza_gratis This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Fozzledick
(3,859 posts)Hamas, on the other hand, continues to brag about how effective they are at getting women and children killed.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)*Despite the High Court's decision and army orders given before and after it, security forces continued to use Palestinians as human shields, although the number of cases dropped. In 2007, for example, B'Tselem documented 14 such instances.
Some people might call that an act of arrogance to the rule of law..something very much in line with
how Hamas thinks.
Fozzledick
(3,859 posts)Hardly comparable to Hamas' practice of mass human sacrifice.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)In August 2002, Nidal Abu Mheisen, a 19-year-old Palestinian from Tubas, was killed by Palestinian gunfire when soldiers forced him to serve as a human shield.
hack89
(39,171 posts)it is clear without a reasonable doubt that using involuntary human shields is illegal.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Like in Iraq, under Saddam?
https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/iraq_human_shields/iraq_human_shields.pdf
hack89
(39,171 posts)in your example, it is clear that Saddam coerced people to be human shields. That is clearly illegal.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)I am aware what Saddam did was illegal.
hack89
(39,171 posts)it is not illegal for Israel to attack any military target they are trying to defend.
They give up much of their Geneva convention rights if they willing act as a human shield.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Palestinians to be human shields. They continued to do so after their High Court ruled against the
practice.
On edit, I am referring to the B'Tselem report.
hack89
(39,171 posts)sorry for any confusion.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Translated from Arabic:
http://www.moi.gov.ps/news/67887/%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86-%D9%87%D8%A7%D9%85-%D8%B5%D8%A7%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D8%B9%D9%86-%D9%88%D8%B2%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%AE%D9%84%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%88%D8%B7%D9%86%D9%8A
Warned the Ministry of Interior and National Security citizens of the occupation to reproduce figures mobiles for the Palestinians and send messages through them to other citizens and asking them to evacuate their homes. ministry said that the aim of these actions create confusion among the citizens in the framework of psychological warfare waged in conjunction with aggression. was the Interior Ministry
called on all citizens to deal with the lack of voice messages by the occupation army broadcast heavily on MOBILE PHONES and terrestrial, stressing that the aim of terrorizing citizens and spreading fear. The Interior Ministry said - in a statement - Tens of thousands of citizens in all areas of the Gaza Strip received voice messages from random occupation before asking them to evacuate their homes immediately, stressing not to deal with it.
She stressed that this voice messages to terrorize citizens and spreading fear and weaken the internal front in light of the failure of the enemy. He appealed to citizens not to Aldalkhalah dealing with these messages or to leave their homes and act calmly, noting that in case of the need for toll-free numbers to contact the Ministry of Interior as follows:
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)About 100,000 Gaza residents living in cities near the border with Israel were reportedly told Thursday to leave their homes ahead of anticipated military action by the Israeli army, the Times of Israel said.
Israeli ministers have repeatedly hinted at a ground invasion over the past three days of airstrikes on Gaza, with troops massing on the border. Israel's Intelligence Minister Yuval Steinitz told Israel Radio on Thursday that the military "will have to take over Gaza temporarily, for a few weeks." Israel has called up 20,000 reservists.
Israel's military warned Gazans in Beit Lahia, Beit Hanoun and Abasan al-Saghira to flee, but Gazans are largely unable to leave the territory though the border with Egypt was temporarily opened Thursday in order to let some injured people leave for treatment.
At least 78 people were killed on the third day of Israel's latest offensive on the Gaza Strip, and more than 50 of them were civilians, according to Gaza medical officials. Hundreds have been injured, while no injuries have been reported in Israel.
in full: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/10/gaza-israel-war.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113467095
hard to tell as Google translate reduces Arabic to near gibberish
shira
(30,109 posts)Do you have a problem with it?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last night my son who's 17 read this OP looked at me and said "Mom I thought human shields were when the cops made people go into places were they might get shot or something ahead of them so the person would get shot instead, but this sounds like people trying to stop their houses from getting blown up"
now you claim "human sacrifices" forced human shielding is reprehensible no matter who does it, however and as another poster earlier today pointed out these are what was during the Bush era early days in Iraq termed "voluntary human shields" so I'm confused here because nothing you have posted says these people were forced to do anything
shira
(30,109 posts)....in times of war. Geneva conventions allow Israel to strike at military targets so long as it's within reason. Perhaps you have an issue with International Law.
And then there are Gazans who live in apartment complexes with Hamas firing rockets either on the rooftop or just outside the front entrance. This is quite evil & I have yet to see so-called pro-Pal. advocates either acknowledge this is happening or condemn it. Imagine that, and they say they care for Palestinians. What do u say?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...when they fire from dense populations or among Palestinian innocents.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and yes that would include Hamas
shira
(30,109 posts)...for doing it. I wouldn't hold my breath, however.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Amnesty International urges the Israeli military and Palestinian armed groups, including Hamas military wing and those overseeing it, to fully respect the laws of war. Israel must only carry out strikes on legitimate military targets and must exercise the utmost caution in the means and methods of attack, to minimize the risk to civilians and damage to civilian homes and infrastructure. Carrying out indiscriminate air strikes in densely populated areas or direct attacks on civilian homes will inevitably lead to the loss of civilian lives, in violation of international humanitarian law.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/news-item/israelgaza-all-sides-must-protect-civilians-as-conflict-escalates
Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel appear to be indiscriminate or targeted at civilian population centers, which are war crimes, while Israeli attacks targeting homes may amount to prohibited collective punishment.
Palestinian armed groups in Gaza have launched scores of rockets into Israel since June 13, 2014. When fired indiscriminately or targeted at Israeli population centers as these attacks seem to be they are serious violations of the law of armed conflicts. Israel has conducted scores of airstrikes in Gaza, including attacks that destroyed five houses, one of which killed seven people, including at least three children. Attacks on the homes of fighters that do not serve an immediate military purpose as, again, some of these seem to be are acts of collective punishment, which the laws of war prohibit.
Regardless of who started this latest round, attacks targeting civilians violate basic humanitarian norms, said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East and North Africa director. All attacks, including reprisal attacks, that target or indiscriminately harm civilians are prohibited under the laws of war, period.
Statements attributed to an armed group said that rocket attacks on July 7 were directed at Israeli towns and cities in reprisal for Israeli abuses, but violations by one party to a conflict never justify abuses by another side, Human Rights Watch said.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/09/palestineisrael-indiscriminate-palestinian-rocket-attacks