Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe Rockets From Hamas, And The Iron Dome That Could Use Patching
Transcript:
For more on the rockets now used by Hamas and Hezbollah, Robert Siegel speaks with Ted Postol, a professor of science, technology and national security policy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Postol also comments on Israel's pursuit of an upgraded defense system.
ROBERT SIEGEL, HOST:
As we've heard from Ari Shapiro, the fighting between Hamas and Israel is, for now at least, an air war. And it's a familiar one. Hamas has long fired rockets at southern Israel, and as we've heard, it is now firing longer-range rockets. Israel has usually responded with airstrikes against Hamas targets in Gaza, and it says its Iron Dome missile defense system has intercepted some of the Hamas rockets in flight. This is an asymmetric conflict. The Israeli Air Force and air defenses are state-of-the-art while Hamas rockets, even as they make life very difficult in towns near Gaza, seem to inflict relatively little damage. For more on the hardware of this conflict, we turn now to Theodore Postol, who is a professor of science, technology and national security policy at MIT and a well-known analyst of missile defense. Welcome to the program, Professor Postol.
THEODORE POSTOL: Nice to be here - thank you.
SIEGEL: And first, how would you describe the rockets that Hamas is firing into Israel?
POSTOL: Well, the rockets are what are called artillery rockets that are ubiquitous to armies over the world. So for example, a typical diameter is called 122 millimeter rocket, which looks like a four-and-a-half-inch diameter pipe. And the length might be 10 feet, although some of them can be 20 feet.
SIEGEL: How big is the explosive that's usually carried by that rocket?
POSTOL: A typical explosive is 20 to 30 pounds which is quite enough to kill you if it lands near you. But, you know, if you take shelter it's unlikely to cause your house to collapse, and Israelis are set up to take shelter.
in full: http://www.npr.org/2014/07/09/330183774/the-rockets-from-hamas-and-the-iron-dome-that-could-use-patching
bemildred
(90,061 posts)About what I would expect, the success rate of both the rockets and Iron dome. "Tens of meters" is about what you get with GPS.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)This is not the first time I have come across an article that suggested problems..but I
have no background on these systems..none.
This part sure as hell stood out, clear as a bell:
SIEGEL: On the other hand, tens of meters in, lets say a dense place like Gaza City that could be three houses away.
POSTOL: Youre going to kill a lot of innocent people.
SIEGEL: Yeah, yeah.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I'd have to go look it up, it has been a long time now. But I remember I used to consider 10 meters good, just going from a UTM grid point and the best precision you could get from the math. It is doubtful that the mechanical aspects of the weapons offer much more precision than that anyway, those things are moving fast.
Edit: ten meters is around one second of arc on the globe, as I recall it.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)I got to do the map drawing software, in particular the UTM grid drawing stuff and digital elevation data. I spent a long time on the UTM stuff and map projections and digital terrain data of various sorts, and I remember that much, that getting the resolution down under ten meters got expensive in terms of compute time and the size of your data sets. One of the few times I really got to use my math degree.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)resolution needs to remain clear at the same time fitting a smaller size?
You are speaking a different language to me, you can probably tell that by my awkward
question. lol
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Anyway vanilla GPS with maximum precision gets you about that, you are within tens of meters of where it says, and that coincides with about 4 digits of precision in the military grid reference system we were using, which is based on UTM, which is what GPS uses, for accuracy same as the military (artiillery for example has to hit where it is supposed to), and I remember that pushing it past that, more than four digits, got very expensive, and that's one meter resolution, within a meter. The artillery guys, they like that sort of precision. So it all "fits", sort of.
But that was a twenty years ago, when I was doing that. It makes my head hurt a little now.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Very cool, bemildred.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)The one I posted at the bottom and the interview you put up?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)I could try and find the earlier piece I referenced before..where the article
expressed poor figures of precision versus the success rate Israel claimed.
It may have been as long as a year ago..not sure.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)SIEGEL: They say it was intercepted by the Iron Dome missile defense system. How would - how successful is that system, in your view?
POSTOL: We can tell, for sure, from video images and even photographs that the Iron Dome system is not working very well at all. It - my guess is maybe 5 percent of the time - could be even lower.
SIEGEL: As I understand it, for it to work it actually has to hit an oncoming rocket head on.
POSTOL: That's correct. And when you look - what you can do in the daytime - you can see the smoky contrail of each Iron Dome interceptor, and you can see the Iron Domes trying to intercept the artillery rockets side on and from behind. In those geometries, the Iron Dome has no chance, for all practical purposes, of destroying the artillery rocket.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Basically said it sucked but the government said the opposite. That may have been at least
a year ago...so not much has changed. But I don't recall the figures at the time, but you're
confirming this is as good as it can get, before it gets too expensive.
Come to think of it, it may have been shay who first posted the article.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)It's not new info, no. They have always been criticized on pragmatic grounds, but it's political, and maybe it does work some.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)Another place it says $53K a pop for the missiles.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)It was Alamuti, actually, and shay and you weighed in as well...cracked me up when I read
the source, Postol.
Too funny.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113435218
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)I miss that poster.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Israels Iron Dome interceptor has shot down some 90 per cent of Palestinian rocketsit engaged during this weeks surge of Gaza fighting, up from the 85 percent rate in the previous mini-war of 2012, Israeli and US officials said on Thursday.
Seven batteries of the system, made by the state-owned Rafael Advanced Defence Systems Ltd and partly funded by Washington, have been rotated around Israel to tackle unprecedented long-range salvoes by Hamas guerrillas.
Rafael said it had been working on improvements to Iron Dome, which is designed to fire guided missiles at rockets that threaten to hit populated areas while ignoring others.There have been few injuries and no fatalities from rockets that hit towns or cities results that also reflect Israels extensive investment in air raid sirens and shelters.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)But I think it's time to go to bed.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)ellenrr
(3,864 posts)It cannot be a war when one side fires 'rockets' which hit nothing, and the other side carpet bombs.
democracy Now: "The Israeli military says it has dropped 800 tonnes of bombs on 750 targets throughout Gaza, more than during its eight-day assault in late 2012."
these bombs drop on a civilian population which have no where to go.
No air-raid shelters in Gaza.
if a person was injured in Israel they have doctors and hospitals.
for the hundreds already injured in Palestine - too bad - doctors are overwhelmed, hospitals are out of supplies.
Let's call it what it is - genocide, not a war.
How can it be a war, when one side has no navy, no army, no air force, no weapons?
shira
(30,109 posts)ellenrr
(3,864 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)expelled from the Knesset and arrested for incitement.
shira
(30,109 posts)not that I know hebrew to confirm...
Lets start with my July 1 Facebook post. It was written some 12 years ago, but never published, by a dear man, the recently departed journalist Uri Elitzur. The gist of his article was that once one side in a war attacks the other sides civilians, they can no longer morally claim a special status for their own civilians.
Go ahead, ask a Hebrew speaking friend to translate it for you, theyll confirm this is what my Facebook post was about. But youll find not a trace of that in Resnicks account. Perhaps its his own ignorance of the Hebrew language. After all, he got the text from Electronic Intifada, a website dedicated to daily and hourly vilification of my country.
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)1) That Israel is attempting to exterminate all 1.8 million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip.
2) That they are engaged in "large aerial bombing done in a progressive manner to inflict damage in every part of a selected area of land"
That is what the words you are using mean. If this is not what you meant, I suggest you ammend such statements in the future with more accurate terminology. You'd still be a liar for claiming that Hamas has "no weapons" of course, but you'd be a significantly less reprehensible one than those pushing the claim that Protective Edge amounts to genocide.
ellenrr
(3,864 posts)as this son of an Israeli general puts it:
" Israel has been bombing and killing people in Gaza since it created the Gaza Strip in the early 1950s. On a regular base, Israel goes in and kills civilians in Gaza. This has been going on for six decades. Of course, its getting worse. The technology is getting better. And the casualty count is getting worse. But this is part of a larger issue, a larger problem. And the problem is that people equate the Palestinian response to Israeli violence and to Israeli aggression as terrorism, instead of realizing that this is an act of resistance. The Palestinians have been the subject of oppression and violence by Israel from the very beginning that the state of Israel was established."
look him up. His name is Miko Peled. His father was an Israeli general. Hes the author of The Generals Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine.
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/8/the_incitement_starts_at_the_top
What do you call it - when people are not allowed to farm, when their water is poisoned, when they cannot trade... when they cannot go in, or out, when they are not allowed to travel for humanitarian reasons.
what happens they die - sometimes slowly as all the time, sometimes quickly as now.
as far as carpet bombing, yes I call 800 tons of bombs (so far) as of yesterday- I call that carpet bombing.
hack89
(39,171 posts)ellenrr
(3,864 posts)How?
poisoned water?
kidney disease among the children?
malnourishment?
what is your pleasure?
hack89
(39,171 posts)Or if it is, it is an embarrassing failure. The point of genocide is to eliminate your enemy, not watch their population explode.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)On Thu Jul 10, 2014, 09:20 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Don't be stupid. Just pointing out that it is not genocide
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=67296
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
rude remark
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 10, 2014, 09:28 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "Don't be stupid" in this case reads more like "don't be silly", and I don't think it crosses the line into rudeness.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: not rude
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: hack can make the point without personal attacks, I'm sure.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The post is unnecessarily rude. Poster it does not make you look "smart" ... just unsocialized
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Every single Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank... Mass murder suicide.besides the usual kill the Gays Jews and Collaborators meme.. they attempted to murder ....
Every single Palestinian man women and child.And they proudly admitted it .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=66694
Hamas: We attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)The American firebombing of Tokyo in WWII used 1665 tons of bombs, about twice as much as Israel in this campaign, yet the casualties were over 100,000. If Israel were as bloodthirsty as you imply, they could have easily achieved that and more with modern bombs, yet the casualties in Gaza do not even exceed a hundred.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)did not create the gaza strip. it was created by Egypt when it invaded, then stayed until forced out in 1967.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)is indiscriminate killing.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)is their equivalent of an army. An illegally armed one, that does not wear uniforms, but an army equivalent.
Hamas could have built air raid shelters, but instead they built tunnels only for Hamas fighters. Then they smuggled arms thru those tunnels, instead of humanitarian aid for the Palestinians.
Hamas also has weapons, rockets, small arms, etc. So they are not defenseless.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Israels Iron Dome interceptor has shot down some 90 per cent of Palestinian rocketsit engaged during this weeks surge of Gaza fighting, up from the 85 percent rate in the previous mini-war of 2012, Israeli and US officials said on Thursday.
Seven batteries of the system, made by the state-owned Rafael Advanced Defence Systems Ltd and partly funded by Washington, have been rotated around Israel to tackle unprecedented long-range salvoes by Hamas guerrillas.
Rafael said it had been working on improvements to Iron Dome, which is designed to fire guided missiles at rockets that threaten to hit populated areas while ignoring others.There have been few injuries and no fatalities from rockets that hit towns or cities results that also reflect Israels extensive investment in air raid sirens and shelters.
Weve been constantly fine-turning the programming of the system, including during the fighting. Our engineers are on the ground, with the military crews, analysing each interception and making adjustments to get the best results, said a Rafael spokesman.
http://www.asianage.com/international/iron-dome-proves-mettle-against-gaza-432
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Additional Iron Dome batteries will be rolled out in the coming days and deployed across Israel.
Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon spoke with the heads of the Rafael defense corporation and Israel Aircraft industries, which manufactures air defense batteries, and thanked them for the extraordinary performance of the anti-rocket system.
"Your efforts, and those of your people in this operation is very impressive, and inspirational," Ya'alon added. "In recent days, you and your people are working with dedication, day and night, to instantly set up more Iron Dome batteries, which will go into operation during [the current] Operation Protective Edge, and will defend the Israeli people," he said.
Ya'alon spoke to Yitzhak Gat (Chairman) and Didi Ya'ari (CEO) of Rafael, and Rafi Maor (Chairman) and Yosi Weiss (CEO) of IAI.
http://www.jpost.com/Defense/More-Iron-Dome-batteries-to-be-rolled-out-in-coming-days-as-rocket-attacks-persist-362409
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)Even though Israels U.S.-funded Iron Dome rocket-defense interceptors appear to be hitting Hamas rockets in recent days, they are almost certainly failing in the crucial job of detonating those rockets shrapnel-packed explosive warheads, expert analysts say.
As a result, rockets fired from Gaza are probably plunging to the ground with intact explosives. The fact that they arent causing injuries or deaths in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and other cities is mainly a matter of luck, the analysts add.
On Thursday, the Israel Defense Forces said missiles from the system had intercepted 56 rockets fired out of Gaza, preventing strikes in several cities. Yet Richard Lloyd, a weapons expert and consultant who is a past Engineering Fellow at Raytheon Integrated Defense Systems, says that because these interceptions had almost certainly not detonated the rockets warheads, the system is essentially failing.
The Iron Dome systemmeant to hit rockets traveling tens of miles from launch to landingis a smaller cousin to the Patriot system, which attempts to hit much longer-range, faster incoming missiles. Iron Dome fires interceptors six inches wide and 10 feet long and uses sensors and real-time guidance systems to try to zero in on the rockets.
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/528916/israeli-rocket-defense-system-is-failing-at-crucial-task-expert-analysts-say/
bemildred
(90,061 posts)ASHKELON, Israel In a sun-scorched field on the outskirts of the Israeli city of Ashkelon, out of sight of the locals busy picking ripe watermelons nearby, two state-of-the-art anti-missile defence batteries stand on high alert.
Shaped like two giant match boxes tilted diagonally towards Gaza, the system comes to life as the wailing of a siren echoes through the nearby loudspeakers.
In the time that it took to read the two sentences above, the iron dome system will have determined whether the rocket soaring through the sky is likely to land in an open field or crash into a building in a city. In case of the latter, a counter-missile will already have been deployed to intercept it. Such a process has been repeated many times since Monday.
More than 360 rockets have been launched at Israel from Gaza in this time. Of these, the iron dome has intercepted more than 70, including approximately 10 missiles that were fired at Tel Aviv.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/11/how-israels-iron-dome-defence-system-has-an-almost-90-success-rate-amid-deluge-of-hamas-rockets/
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)off? He stands by that figure, and another one from NYT from last year...he was not alone.
Weapons Experts Raise Doubts About Israels Antimissile System
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/world/middleeast/israels-iron-dome-system-is-at-center-of-debate.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0&_r=0
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I don't think it has any particular connection to reality, they don't expect to be seriously challenged about it. They are probably correct in that.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 15, 2014, 09:44 AM - Edit history (1)
A correspondent sent me this exchange with Postol, which I have received permission to post.
From:FerozeSidhwa
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 6:16 PM
To:postol@mit.edu
Subject: NPR interview
Dr. Postol,
I heard your interview on NPR the other day on the Iron Dome system.
You said that Hamas is intentionally forc[ing] the Israelis to kill a lot of noncombatants. Do you have any evidence that this is the case? You were talking about this in the context of Gaza being a densely populated place. Do you think Hamas is responsible for the incredible population density of the Gaza Strip, and that their purpose in making it one of the most densely populated places in the world was to make[] the Israelis look worse?
As far as I am aware, such claims are only made by Israeli and American government spokespeople, the same ones who constantly claim against all evidence that Iron Dome is shooting down huge numbers of rockets. I dont know why someone would take such peoples claims seriously under any circumstances. On its face the claim seems rather unlikely to be true: the most popular political party in Palestine is actively trying to get Palestinian women and children killed to make Israel look bad? Palestinians must be very stupid people indeed to support such a group.
I would appreciate an answer. You are a highly regarded scientist at a highly regarded institution, so people take your statements seriously. Thank you, I hope you are well.
Norm,
Thought you might find this exchange interesting, or maybe uplifting. Not for posting obviously.
Sent from my iPhone
FerozeSidhwa, M.D., M.P.H.
Surgery Resident, Boston University Medical Center
Email: feroze.sidhwa@post.harvard.edu
***On Jul 12, 2014, at 1:49 PM, <postol@tpostol.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Sidwha:
I sincerely regret that at the end of my four minute interview it appeared to you that I was asserting that Hamas was responsible for the atrocities now going on in Gaza. For our common reference, I have transcribed the very end of that four minute interview:
Interviewer: On the other hand, tens of meters (of accuracy) in a dense place like Gaza city
Postol (Interrupting): That could kill a lot of innocent people
in part this is an important game on the part of the adversary, if you can intentionally force Israelis to kill a lot of noncombatants thats good for your campaign, it makes the Israelis look worse
The interviewers question was related to an earlier discussion we were having about the accuracy of the artillery rockets being fired into Israel relative to the accuracy of bombs being dropped by Israeli pilots in Gaza.
I pointed out that these bombs could kill a lot of it people. My next statement had to do with the tactics that are typically used by almost all guerrilla organizations when they are fighting a vastly more capable adversary. For example, it was typical, in the war over Kosovo in the Balkans, that Serbian guerrillas would set mortars up in town squares so that counter battery fire would certainly result in mass casualties of innocents.
This is one of those terrible facts of unrestrained warfare.
I regard the Israeli bombing of Gaza as completely inexcusable. The Israelis present themselves as a modern state that is integrated into the Western alliance. The values espoused by these countries (which I fully acknowledge are not always followed) clearly and unambiguously treat has more crimes attacks that are executed without regard to the killing of innocent civilians. I agree with those values.
The moral questions raised by how the Israeli government has responded to Palestinian artillery rocket attacks are serious, and, have not been adequately discussed in the Western press.
The Palestinian artillery rocket attacks have had a serious paralyzing effect on Israeli society but they have essentially resulted in no losses of life. This is because the real defense that the Israelis have is being able to take shelter before artillery rockets impact. This passive defense is also aided by the fact that these artillery rockets have quite small warheads, so modest levels of sheltering can be quite effective.
There can be no excuse for dropping 1000 and 2000 pound bombs on a densely populated area under the guise that the response is proportional. The Israeli approach to this intractable confrontation should be totally unacceptable to all states that hold a high value on human life. In fact, the Israeli response to the Gaza conflict raises the same moral questions as that of Assads bombing attacks against civilians in rebel controlled areas in Syria.
I sincerely regret that you misunderstood my statement, and I will be very careful in the future to do what I can to be clearer about my views. I do not wish to make it look like I am making an excuse, but I hope you will also understand that this was a quite short interview that was additionally edited by NPR, who I also believe did the best job they could under the circumstances.
Best regards, Ted Postol
***
From:FerozeSidhwa<feroze.sidhwa@gmail.com>
Date: July 12, 2014 at 5:00:33 PM PDT
To: <postol@tpostol.com> <postol@tpostol.com>
Subject:Re: Your Concerns About My NPR interview
Dr. Postol,
Your empathetic response is exactly what I thought I wouldnt get but was hoping I would. You obviously have a deep understanding and a humanitarian perspective, a rare combination. Or maybe the media just doesnt typically give a platform to scholars who are also decent human beings.
Thank you so much for your response. Its very unusual to meet someone who takes their words so seriously, so please let me thank you sincerely for that.
I hope you are well and will continue your work. Best of luck.
Sent from my iPhone
FerozeSidhwa, M.D., M.P.H.
Surgery Resident, Boston University Medical Center
Email: feroze.sidhwa@post.harvard.edu
http://normanfinkelstein.com/2014/informative-exchange/
bemildred
(90,061 posts)There you go, couldn't have said it better myself.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Even though Israels U.S.-funded Iron Dome rocket-defense interceptors appear to be hitting Hamas rockets in recent days, they are almost certainly failing in the crucial job of detonating those rockets shrapnel-packed explosive warheads, expert analysts say.
As a result, rockets fired from Gaza are probably plunging to the ground with intact explosives. The fact that they arent causing injuries or deaths in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and other cities is mainly a matter of luck, the analysts add.
On Thursday, the Israel Defense Forces said missiles from the system had intercepted 56 rockets fired out of Gaza, preventing strikes in several cities. Yet Richard Lloyd, a weapons expert and consultant who is a past Engineering Fellow at Raytheon Integrated Defense Systems, says that because these interceptions had almost certainly not detonated the rockets warheads, the system is essentially failing.
The Iron Dome systemmeant to hit rockets traveling tens of miles from launch to landingis a smaller cousin to the Patriot system, which attempts to hit much longer-range, faster incoming missiles. Iron Dome fires interceptors six inches wide and 10 feet long and uses sensors and real-time guidance systems to try to zero in on the rockets.
When an Iron Dome interceptor gets close to an incoming rocket, a proximity fuse triggers the interceptor to detonate, spraying out metal rods that are intended to strike and detonate the warheads on the incoming rockets, neutralizing their ability to maim people and destroy things on the ground.
Ted Postol, the MIT physicist and missile-defense expert who aided Lloyds analysis and who in 1991 debunked claims by the U.S. Army that its Patriot missiles were successfully shooting down Iraqi Scud missiles during the first Gulf War (see Postol vs. the Pentagon and Preventing Fratricide), agrees that Iron Domes interceptors have not been succeeding at this crucial warhead-detonation job.
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/528916/israeli-rocket-defense-system-is-failing-at-crucial-task-expert-analysts-say/
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)By Haaretz | Jul. 15, 2014
A United States congressional committee on Tuesday approved a spending
bill that would double the funding for Israel's Iron Dome anti-missile system, Fox News reported.
The defense spending bill approved by the Senate Appropriations defense subcommittee would provide $621.6 million for Israeli missile defense, including $351 million for the Iron Dome system.
The bill still has to be approved by the full Senate.
The allocation for Israel is only a small part of the full bill, which would provide the U.S. armed forces with $549.3 billion for the fiscal year beginning October 1.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.605370
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Representatives for the Israel Defense Forces claim that Iron Dome has been about 90 percent effective in knocking down Hamas missiles fired from Gaza. Lloyd and a handful of other outside experts, including Theodore Postol of Massachusetts Institute of Technology, have been challenging the IDFs assertions on Iron Domes success rate since at least 2012.
On Monday, Lloyd e-mailed me a copy of a 28-page analysis thats the most detailed critique yet of the holes in the Iron Dome systemholes so big that, if hes right, would justify calling it Iron Sieve. He says his paper is based entirely on open-source documents and observations and was cleared for public release by the Pentagon in late May.
Lloyd wrote the paper for Tesla Laboratories, a defense contractor in Arlington, Va., for which he is a consultant, and plans to post it on the Internet sometime. He spent more than two decades at Raytheon (RTN) and was a past engineering fellow at Raytheon Integrated Defense Systems.
The strength of Lloyds critique is that ordinary people can evaluate the effectiveness of Iron Dome just by looking up in the sky at the contrails of the antimissile systems Tamir interceptors. If its working properly, the interceptor missiles shoot upward and meet incoming Hamas rockets as they fall to the ground at a steep angle. The contrails are short and go straight skyward. If its not working, the contrails form loop-de-loops as the interceptors chase after the rockets and catch them from the side or behind.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-21/israels-iron-dome-weapons-expert-warns-of-major-flaws
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Didn't know the rockets used dynamite.
I think I'll leave the argument about Iron Dome to the experts, but I do find the idea of the spray of rods odd, not the way you would like to do it.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)attached.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)They had all sorts of fancy ideas in the beginning. But the physics is hard. To be agile enough it has to be small, to do the job and have range it has to be big. Fixed targets are much easier, and we were talking about the problems you get into when you want to be really accurate about position. The laser ranging device they have is clever.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)money they'll use to make "peace".
I do appreciate your tech info.though..thanks.