Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe fallacy of "both sides are equal"
in the awful algebra of death, to date: 90 Palestinians are dead, including children, and no Israelis.
If this awful carnage plays out as it has in past attacks on Gaza, casualties will be much more unbalanced.
cali
(114,904 posts)It's an awful game. Hamas wants as many 'martyred' civilians as possible and Israel is only to eager to oblige. The rockets seem to incur little damage. The Israelis have Iron Dome and effective shelters and warning systems. What if Israel simply used those tools without their normal massive overkill reaction? Hamas, I suspect, would soon receive the condemnation of the world and lobbing rockets at Israel would cease to become an effective tool. Yes, I could be wrong, but we can't know, as they won't try that tactic.
ellenrr
(3,864 posts)think there are probably many views among people who belong to Hamas.
I don't think the rockets are a good strategy at all, obviously whoever is lobbing them knows, as we all do, that they will cause an immense, deadly reaction.
so what purpose do they serve?
perhaps they are the frustrated expression of a people who have no self-defense at all.
cali
(114,904 posts)It's a tactic. Not a surprising one. Not a new one. It's reprehensible, but the Israelis seize on it- in my view, in a very cynical way. I don't think it's so much the frustrated expression of people. Hamas is in no way, an admirable organization. They are zealots and the evidence for that is simply overwhelming. That doesn't excuse the inevitable overkill response by Israel in any way.
ellenrr
(3,864 posts)I'm not sure about Hamas. Different views. But we definitely agree on over-kill.
I think if the Palestinian people were not so relentlessly brutalized by Israel, and ignored by the world, for six decades -
perhaps they would not have voted for Hamas.
I'm not going to second guess the Palestinians, I am not Palestinian, and I do not live there.
If I did, I would be in favor of the small left-wing groups that do (or did) exist.
But as an American tax-payer and an American Jew it is my job to fight against Israel killing Palestinians.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)I'm old enough to remember when text books and newspapers used the word Palestinian referred to the jewish persons living in the middle east. The majority of the followers of Islam in the middle east (at that time) referred to themselves as Arabs.
That not withstanding, The various conflicts in the middle east for the last 100 years have been highlighted in media worldwide, both sides receiving credit or blame for each incident depending on the author/source.
1 source (pathe news reels) 20 min hunting = 70+ years of coverage.
shira
(30,109 posts)And the world was silent.
Full stop.
Now if Hamas HAD received condemnation from the world before Israel struck back, this may have been avoided. The same damned thing happened back in 2008-09 when hundreds of missiles were launched at Israel in the hours before Israel responded. The world was also silent back then.
hack89
(39,171 posts)and they reached a point where they could inflict serious harm on Israel - which is what they hope to do judging from their never ending attempts to smuggle more powerful and longer ranged missiles into Gaza. If you know where Hamas wants to go, why help them realize that goal? Take every opportunity to punish Hamas and reduce their military capability and hopefully you will never come to the point where Hamas is a true military threat. Because then the result would be total war that would leave Gaza razed to the ground.
King_David
(14,851 posts)ellenrr
(3,864 posts)Obviously I don't link, unless I am posting an article.
Did you think my comment was an article?
I repeat my request that I made :
pls just say what your beef is, aside that you disagree with me. If you disagree with me, then post something that is factual, or your opinion.
Instead of these phantom violations.
I will be leaving this conversation soon, it is getting ludicrous...
but pls do me the courtesy of answering my questions.
also when you make a charge, that I post articles without a link- please produce the evidence or -
apologize for false claim-
or shut the fuck up.
not saying it is impossible that in a thousand posts, I could have forgotten a link - but your insinuation that I routinely do, is insulting, and obviously a need to discredit my information.
and to distract from the facts at hand.
ellenrr
(3,864 posts)"New threads must be based on a recently-published news item or op-ed piece."
which I don't agree with, but will follow from now on.
---see how easy that was, King David?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Thanks for showing us who we dealing with here.
And NO I will not.
I don't get bullied no matter what your important " vision " is .
ellenrr
(3,864 posts)to show me what articles I posted without a link.
no bullying, but if you make a claim - back it up-- facts please.
ellenrr
(3,864 posts)intended to discredit facts that you disagree with,
and then you slink away.
way to go.
King_David
(14,851 posts)How do you know what's "typical" if I have never spoken to you before .
Is there stereotyping involved here? If so that's not cool at all...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)One of which was a necessity for an OP to be no older than 3 weeks old and
a few sources are not allowed. For example, you posted an OP last night from
Electronic Intifada and it was locked. That source is not allowed as a thread
starter, although I believe it is allowed as a response source.
OP's based on your opinion alone, are not typical, and usually are locked.
However, DU3 is different, and the following OP was allowed to remain:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113459740
So it seems to me and you can ask Lithos the host here, but I think
your OP can remain...the above link is not the only recent example.
There was another similar thread recently posted that was allowed to stay up too.
Welcome to the I/P group..we don't often see more regular DU members post here.
ellenrr
(3,864 posts)I have now read the guidelines and will follow them if I post here.
but one reason why more radical and more discerning people do not come here is bec of the sources allowed.
It is idiocy not to allow Electronic Intifada but to allow the NYTimes.
well goes to show du is a neoliberal site and I wonder why I am here.
as I am a radical not a neoliberal.
thanks tho. I appreciate the information.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)We still manage to get out an honest account of what Israeli policy
is doing to the Palestinians..so stick around.
ellenrr
(3,864 posts)so good that they can get truthful information.
King_David
(14,851 posts)That's clear .
And now we know how to treat and regard your posts.
Thanks for clearing that up though.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Anyone reading these posts.
We can read posts of a self admitted "radical" and now we
( us reading the posts) we the people of this group.
We the DU members.
We the lurkers of the Internet .
You can be excluded from the "we" if you want ? I will cross you off the list.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)You have used "we" in other respects before, so I was checking.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Response to King_David (Reply #18)
cerveza_gratis This message was self-deleted by its author.
King_David
(14,851 posts)And they don't support the United States Democratic Party policies on Israel and Zionism there either.
ellenrr
(3,864 posts)enid602
(8,589 posts)I fear that Netanyahu might be tempted to take advantage of the current Sunni-Shiite schism which keeps both sectors of the Islamic world from effectively uniting against its common enemy. The only problem is that the West now has a schism (US vs EU) in its support of Israel policy. And US support is becoming frayed.
Response to enid602 (Reply #28)
cerveza_gratis This message was self-deleted by its author.
enid602
(8,589 posts)My fear is that Netanyahu, seeing this Sunni-Shiite schism might be tempted to take advantage of it, and go for broke vis a vis the Palestinians. He might be able to get away with it, but I fear the ultimate consequences for Israel would be devastating, given their eroding support and increasing isolation.
Response to enid602 (Reply #32)
cerveza_gratis This message was self-deleted by its author.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)Israeli military leadership
Saudi money
Egyptian (and Arab in general) manpower....
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)By Amira Hass | 05:29 11.07.14
There is a direct connection between the murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir on the one hand, and the Jerusalem municipality, Interior Ministry, Jerusalem police and High Court of Justice on the other. Since the occupation and annexation of East Jerusalem, these official bodies have initiated, implemented and approved deliberately discriminatory policies against its Palestinian residents. Their message is clearly heard by the inciters and has been internalized by the murderers.
A long, long time ago, in other words two or three days ago, before the new war with Gaza began, the murder of Abu Khdeir by Jews aroused condemnation and shock, including from the right-wing establishment: ministers, MKs and settlement rabbis. They managed to present it as a single, isolated incident, unrelated to anything. Although the impression is spoiled by the Facebook storm troopers who praise the murder, and the anonymous individuals who destroyed the monument built by Israelis in the Jerusalem Forest, where the boys body was found, whats important is that people abroad know that Economy Minister Naftali Bennett and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu condemn the act. They are even considering declaring Abu Khdeir a terror victim.
Because what could be easier than condemning the burning of a boy when he was still alive? Its also easy to condemn the murder because the suspects come from the social sector, the community, the accent, the political party and the place of residence that can be conveniently shrugged off. Its not our people. After all, theyre not really normative like us. And the main thing, they arent settlers or hilltop youth.
Rightly it was written here about the incitement that gave rise to the murder after the report of the murder of the three yeshiva students, and about the connection to rabbinical and other incitement in recent years, and the evidence of racism among teens. Rightly there was mention of the attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank, including acts of murder, which were buried in the uncaring bureaucracy of the police and State Prosecution.
On the website Sikha Mekomit [the Hebrew sister site of the +972 blogsite], Haggai Matar rightly wrote about 1,384 Palestinian children and teens killed by Israel Defense Forces soldiers since 2000 (not including victims of the present assault). On average, one child has been killed every 3.7 days, compared to 127 Israeli children killed by Palestinians.
But even these contexts of Abu Khdeirs murder are insufficient. The Israeli government committed three crimes after the occupation of East Jerusalem in 1967: It defined the Palestinians there as non-Jewish immigrants to Israel, according to the Citizenship and Entry Into Israel laws (as though they chose to live in Israel, rather than Israel being the party that entered their home); confiscated from them about 24,500 dunams (about 6,050 acres) of land, mainly private, which were allocated for construction for Jews only; and imposed draconian building restrictions on the Palestinians in the area it left to them.
Those who implement this policy are generations of interior ministers and officials of the ministry and the municipality, its mayors, clerks, planners and architects. And also the police and the National Insurance Institute, the enforcers, and the High Court, which approves directly or indirectly.
These crimes were the source of the other official crimes, laws and regulations, walls and restrictions, which have turned East Jerusalem into what it is today a collection of impoverished, crowded neighborhoods, with an insufficient infrastructure, a shocking school dropout rate and few employment opportunities, cut off from the rest of the Palestinian territory. And every resident lives in fear that his permanent residence status will be revoked and he will be expelled. The bottom line: Living in constant humiliation.
Israels undeclared goal regarding the residents of East Jerusalem is to expel them from the city, or at least to limit their number and weaken them as a national community. Its clear message is: The Palestinians are inferior. Not human beings like us. The racist murder is an extreme but self-evident translation of the message, the policy and the goal.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.604352