‘Slightest doubt’ cancels mission, says top Israeli pilot

[shira]

Although there have been many civilian casualties in Gaza, Lt. Col. T, an F-16I squadron commander, says his team goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid harming innocents

http://www.timesofisrael.com/slightest-doubt-cancels-mission-says-iaf-officer/#ixzz37URrkzn0


Related...


IDF Releases Recording of Phone Call Warning to Gaza Resident Prior to Striking Terror Target (VIDEO)

The Israel Defense Forces on Sunday released a recording of a phone call made to a Gaza resident on Saturday warning of an impending strike on a terror target in his vicinity.

“Hi, do you speak Hebrew,” an IDF operator asks in the call. “How are you? Is everything okay?” The IDF needs to target the building that is located close to you,” he continues.”We are doing everything in our power to not hit buildings nearby. We are trying to make sure before we strike the target, that there are no civilians in the vicinity.”

“Make sure and tell everyone. Because in 5 minutes we will strike the target,” he concludes.

The video then shows the Israel Air Force firing a warning shot known as “knocking on the roof” before destroying the building.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/13/idf-releases-recording-of-phone-call-warning-to-gaza-resident-prior-to-striking-terror-target-video/

[Scootaloo]

1. And yet the large bulk of the dead are civilians

These pilots know that targeting a home for the disabled is going to kill people who can't run. They did it anyway. They know targeting private homes is going to kill people. They do it anyway.

Must be a lot of terrorists udner the age of ten, I guess, to warrant such ironclad certainty.

[shira]

2. Is Hamas responsible 4 trying to get....

...as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible?

What do you say?

What is Hamas' exact responsibility in all this?

[Scootaloo]

4. I don't absolve Hamas at all for thir part in this, Shira

I just think the greater bulk of responsibility falls into the hands of people who use guided missiles to target homes, hospitals, and sports bars. Israel has a choice. It chooses to target civilians with massive explosions. it is responsible for that choice and bears the onus for the deaths it causes from that choice.

[shira]

5. I'd say the greater bulk of responsibility falls on Hamas

They're attacking Israeli citizens while hiding behind their own. Israel has a responsibility too; just not as much as Hamas.

Geneva War Conventions place most of the blame on Hamas too. What they're doing is a double war-crime.

[Scootaloo]

6. Of course you do.

You have been very consistent with your belief that any amount of mass murder through any means necessary - hail of bullets, rain of misisles, a planted bomb, a rolled grenade, whatever - is okay so long as you say "there was a bad guy there!" And no matter the death toll, no matter how indefensible, Israel always pats your ass and assures you, "there was a bad guy there." Even if they didn't, you'd assume there was because, hey, they're Arabs. Even with nothing to back the claim aside from the assurances of the guys who threw the missile, you're certain they're right, because otherwise that would mean Israel is wrong about something.

And you're in too deep to think such thoughts now.

[shira]

7. Your problem is with Geneva/International Law.

International Law doesn't allow for Israel to go wild based on what Hamas does, and they're not. All indications point to Israel complying with International Law.

[Scootaloo]

9. Oh, the Geneva conventions are worth defense now?

Excellent, I look forward to your arguments to completely dismantle the settlements, return Golan, provide restitution and rehabilitation to the refugees caused by ethnic cleansing, the prosecution of hte war criminals responsible for that act of inhuman barbarity, et all.

But before i applaud you for suddenly deciding international law is worth following, I want to point out that ethics and law are different subjects. An amazing number of unethical things are legal. Remember that officer beating the shit out of the lady on the roadside? if he says "she was assaulting an officer," boom, he's in the clear. That's all it takes. Remember Trayvon Martin? he was stalked and gunned down by a racist psychopath, who stood in front of the court, said "I wuz skurred!" and boom, he's legally in the clear.

Sort of like how Israel says every single strike it launches at civilian targets is defensible because, oh, there was a guy in the roof. legal? Probably. Apparently so was everything the US did in iraq, given there have been no arrests, much less prosecutions or convictions. Even when legally i nthe wrong, the powerful have a way of beign cleared of wrongdoing against the powerless.

But is it right, that's the question I raise.

Also, yes, Hamas has perpetrated war crimes. Ypu're going to have to explain to me the logic where blowing up nearly two hundred Gazans punishes Hamas for that though because I really don't follow. Should this be the standard of operation to penalize war criminals? Would iraq or Afghanistan be justified in pummeling Crawford, TX with missiles becuase a war criminal is hiding among the civilians there?

[shira]

11. You're wrong about Int'l Law as it applies to Israel

As for everything else you wrote.....if you had your way, Israel doesn't respond, and 200 Israelis are dead to 0 Gazans (due to Israel not responding back) how "right" would that be?

[Scootaloo]

12. Meanwhile, back in reality land...

200 Israelis aren't dead. And killing 175+ Gazans didn't save them. Rather, 175+ Gazans are dead, with no gain whatsoever for Israel. But you applaud it anyway because hey, you're in too deep to come up for air now. Thanks for demonstrating that you are still unable to comprehend ethics, and that when presented with such, you run and hide behind pure bullshit and hateful justification for the deaths of children.

[shira]

13. Your way would result in the reverse. Hundreds of Israelis dead.

No military response by Israel, so 0 Gazans dead.

What's "right" about that?

Don't run. Seems you realize your argument is morally bankrupt.

[Scootaloo]

14. You're arguing that killing 175+ Gazans ensures the safety of an equal number of Israelis

You're making this argument to defend and justify those killings, most of whom have been civilians.

You've been arguing for a week now that the murder of innocents is integral to the defense of Israel.

It's not. Not one Israeli - much less two hundred - have been saved by the killing of these people in Gaza.

[shira]

15. You're still deflecting from yr morally bankrupt argument. n/t

[Scootaloo]

16. No, I'm assaulting your bullshit claim, Shira

200 Israelis have not been miraculously saved via blowing up nearly that many people in Gaza, nor by injuring five times as many. That's your claim. It's not true. And now we're done with that bullshit.

Since you are unable to address a question of ethics in any way that is remotely intellectually honest, much less connected to the topic of ethics, we're done here.

I leave you to your celebration of the carnage in Gaza, Shira. I hope you enjoy whatever fruit it may bear for you.

[shira]

17. Now you're arguing a strawman

I never claimed 200 Israelis have been miraculously saved by the IDF attacking Gaza. My point is that eventually >200 Israelis would die if Israel were to do nothing in response. Casualties will pile up. Maybe not all in one week. It might take months for >200 Israelis to get killed. Months of more rockets w/o an IDF response.

But that seems to be fine with you.

[Scootaloo]

18. That's exactly what you said

if you had your way, Israel doesn't respond, and 200 Israelis are dead to 0 Gazans (due to Israel not responding back)

My argument is that the killing of civilians is unnecessary, unproductive, wasteful, and wrong. That shit above, that's your rebuttal to that. Somehow unless Israel is killing those people, 200 Israelis drop dead. That killing them is essential, because otherwise, 200 Israelis would be dead now. where does hat number come from? Who the fuck knows, but that's your claim.

It's a fucking stupid claim and is worth no more of my time.

[shira]

19. What's so difficult about this? You think Hamas can fire rockets....

....without an IDF response and Iron Dome & the bomb shelters will ensure the safety of all Israelis forever? 0 casualties, for months, years.....all while Israelis are in shelters, kids don't go to school, and the economy tanks? It might take months for 200 Israeli deaths but if Israel isn't going to stop Hamas, it will eventually happen. Israeli deaths will pile up, slowly but surely.

That's your plan.

Own it.

[Scootaloo]

22. My point has been blowing up Gaza with missiles does nothing to protect Israel

It does not stop Hamas. It does not weaken Hamas. It does not defend Israelis. It does not advance Israel's security. it doesn't lend any political capital it does not slow rockets it does not do a god damned motherfucking thing except kill people needlessly in big fucking explosions when their houses are blown up.

You know all this. Not only do you know all of what I just said but you also know that this is exactly what I've been saying this whole time, so you can stop with the bullshit claims otherwise.

You KNOW that hurling missiles into Gaza doesn't protect Israelis. You know it doesn't stop hamas. You know it doesn't slow the rockets. This is impossible not to know because you've been watching the whole time just as I have, and no matter HOW many missiles Israel pounds into gaza, no matter HOW many Arabs, or pieces of Arabs are put into early graves, hamas keeps going, rockets keep flying, Israelis keep running.

It doesn't fucking work. it just kills people. The majority of those people are innocents. every time. Hundreds of people. over two thousand since this notion of blowing up Palestinians to protect Israelis came in vogue. And all it's accomplished is killing those people, mangling thousands more, bereaving and damaging thousands and thousands more, leaving Gaza a heap of rubble with no water and next to no infrastructure, and the rockets keep coming and Hamas keeps preaching.

You know this.

But you still advocate pounding Gaza with missiles. Sunup to sundown. You defend each and every death, young and old, man and woman, as absolutely essential and righteous to the cause of Israel's defense. Every last none. Not a single one of them didn't deserve to die. They were all terrorists. or their family were terrorists. Or they didn't run fast enough. Or whatever halfassed lame excuses you feel like giving to make their deaths their own fault, or hamas' or Sweden's, or B'tselem's, or the UN's, or mine.

Even though you know those strikes accomplish nothing of value, even knowing they just kill people, lots of people, needlessly and indiscriminately - that's what explosions do, and you know that, too - you will defend their absolute necessity to your dying breath.,

Not for the sake of Israel's safety - you know that they don't make Israel any safer.

[shira]

23. What I know is the last couple times Israel went after Hamas....

...there were months of quiet - real quiet. Hamas chose once again to reign hundreds of rockets into Israel. I also know that Israel stopped the Palestinians during Defensive Shield in 2002 and that they could do it again if they have the will.

Had you been in charge of Israel in 2002, multiple suicide bombings per week/month would still be happening til this day due to your policy of having the IDF do nothing in response. Israeli bodies would still be piling up.

Your plan is for the IDF to do nothing now, making Israel into one big Sderot - permanently. Your solution is hateful, depraved, and morally bankrupt. I know you wouldn't be calling for it in any other situation worldwide.

[shaayecanaan]

21. The Jewish underground hid weapons and explosives in synagogues

and deployed its fighters in residential areas just like Hamas does today. Israel is pretty much desert and low hills, urban environments provide the only cover that exists. A guerilla force that fights in the open is a dead one.

The residents of Sderot asked to be evacuated in 2007. Israel ultimately failed to do so, and then whenever a journalist arrived at Ben-Gurion airport they were presented with a thick dossier of material documenting the poor suffering people of Sderot.

So I suppose the Sderot residents have their own propaganda value as well.

[shira]

24. More propaganda.

Did the Jewish underground, like Hamas now, want as many civilians killed as possible?

Sderot residents deserve a helluva lot better but what's your solution to this? How should Israel have handled Hamas' onslaught this time around? No IDF response? All Israel should become one big Sderot? Surprise me.

[Fred Sanders]

3. Since 70% of deaths are innocent civilians the benefit of the doubt is clearly not with the dead.

[Jefferson23]

8. Sick OP. n/t

[shira]

10. What exactly is sick about it? n/t

[azurnoir]

20. events over the weekend unfolded like this from (US time) late Friday evening through Saturday

Israeli bombing causes nearly 1/3 of deaths at that point in this campaign with the numbers jumping from a bit over 100 to 150 including a sick vile attack on a home for the disabled then voila late Saturday/Sunday the bombings decrease Bibi and Ron Dermer take to the US airwaves (by this time the attack on disabled is fish wrap) with video's such as these which have also flooded the press and Dermer's siren stunt

draw your own conclusions