Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumI'm Done Apologizing for Israel
I'm done apologizing for Israel.
It's tiring to apologize over and over. Instead, I've decided to come clean: I am a progressive American rabbi who leans left pretty hard. I've been engaged, as a US faith leader, in work to reform gun laws, extend LGBT rights around the world, grant refuge to illegal immigrants, protect women's reproductive choice, and more. Paint me blue.
So, when it comes to Israel, many of those with whom I engage in social reform expect me to react to Israel's military actions in Gaza with scorn and criticism. To be fair, there are times when I do. My Zionism demands I speak out on behalf of the Israel that remains, in my world-view, the most ambitious project-in-process of the Jewish People. Whereas Israel's 66 short years have witnessed strength and resilience that have redefined Jewish identity in profound ways, the global Jewish family remains interwoven with Israel. If you question this, scan the last week's news for anti-Israel rallies in Antwerp, Los Angeles, Paris, Boston, and elsewhere that featured widespread anti-Semitic chants and violence against Jews.
So I'm a progressive US faith leader. I'm a Zionist in Berkeley, CA. I'm a Jew in the world, worried for my family. So here is my response to those criticizing Israel this week. To those who suggest that Prime Minister Netanyahu is over-reacting to the missiles, I offer this response which I have now shared regularly at campus and communal conversations:
Israel is treating wounded Palestinians during this conflict, risking Israeli lives in surgical strikes to destroy weapons-smuggling tunnels created with building materials Israel allowed into Gaza for infrastructure projects to benefit Palestinian society. Just for a moment, consider the deaths that would result from Israel wishing harm on Palestinian civilians. In just the last 48 hours, Israel has allowed over 10 tons of goods into Gaza. During the past weeks, Israel has agreed to two humanitarian cease-fires. In the first hours of those ceasefires, Hamas rained down over 70 missiles onto Israel civilians.
cont'd...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor/im-done-apologizing-for-i_b_5606650.html
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
shira
(30,109 posts)I ask: What do Israel's enraged critics truly desire? How is it possible to hear indignant claims of human rights violations in the context of Syrians slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands, state-sanctioned terrorism around the globe, and young immigrants treated like chattel by the US and other? Israel is doing its best, sacrificing its own children to preserve the lives of Palestinians.
I also ask, regarding the world's seemingly acceptance of Hamas' tactics as the only remaining option left for a desperate leadership:
Were Hamas to truly lead its people forward to a life of stability and peace, wouldn't it use building materials for schools instead of smuggling tunnels? Wouldn't Hamas stop stockpiling weapons in mosques and transporting them in UN ambulances? Wouldn't Hamas stop firing missiles from civilian population centers if it valued Palestinian lives as much as Israel does? If Israel weren't so concerned for Palestinian lives, wouldn't it respond to Hamas' horrific decisions in kind?
I ask the enraged critics of Israel's defensive responses to Hamas: Would you have us not respond to this monstrosity? Do you think it's not worth losing the PR battle to retain our humanity and save as many lives as possible? What country would stand by when thousands of terrorist missiles assault its citizens? I, a Jew, have lost 20 of my sons in the last three days, because I will not lose my humanity and stage a careless ground war in Gaza that would cause mass casualties. Though I fight monsters, I will not become one.
My response has changed these last few weeks, in which three Jewish teens were murdered by Arab terrorists and Palestinians celebrated by distributing sweets to children and an Arab teen was murdered by Jewish terrorists and the Jewish world condemned the hatred. [font color = "red"]I am done trying to apologetically explain Jewish morality. I am done apologizing for my own Jewish existence.[/font]
Some will call this needless hyperbole. But, having watched in this last week anti-Semitic "die-ins" in Boston, violent assaults against Jews in Los Angeles and Antwerp, and an almost pogrom at a synagogue in Paris, I'm done mincing my own words.
We will do what we must to protect our people. We have that right. We are not less deserving of life and quiet than anyone else.
No more apologies.
PCIntern
(25,518 posts)I wrote a post here delineating a few things...but to utilize the language of some of the most vociferous apologists for the terrorists here, why the fuck should I?
In the end, the tunnels will be destroyed, significant numbers of terrorists will be removed from the Earth, and we will return to stasis. And then the cycle will begin again. Nothing said here by these people will change these facts.
King_David
(14,851 posts)The most interesting threads are the responses to the multiple antiSemitic "incidents" at the anti - Israel protests. At these rallies and elsewhere most of the demonization of Israel is not just because some support the people of Gaza .
mylye2222
(2,992 posts)And spreading fair peace.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Thanks for posting.
shira
(30,109 posts)Excerpt from much longer article:
http://www.thejc.com/news/israel-news/120792/richard-kemp-analysis-the-war-crimes-have-been-committed-hamas
Those who condemn Israel’s necessary and just war give succour to Hamas, a proscribed terrorist group. They encourage Hamas to keep fighting and to continue using human shields. They encourage extremists everywhere to follow this murderous policy. And such encouragement leads to further loss of innocent lives.
This couldn't be more obvious.
I pay tribute to the more than 30 soldiers who have made the ultimate sacrifice. They have made the greatest contribution to their country that is possible. We owe them our support. Not just out of respect for their courage and sacrifice but because their war is our war, too. They are fighting the 21st century scourge of Islamist terrorism at democracy’s front line.
True. Hamas' western enablers would disagree, but who cares? No apologies.
shira
(30,109 posts)I asked Richard Kemp how Israel might achieve a demilitarized Gaza. He shook his head at the improbability of it. ‘Some kind of peacekeeping force would be essential, but who’d do that? Not the US, not the UK, nobody’
http://www.timesofisrael.com/a-supportive-british-colonel-and-a-bleak-vision-of-endless-costly-military-operations/#ixzz38UH4VaWf
It's a long, very informative but also sobering interview. A must read for those who want to know what Israel really faces.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)don't bother me nearly as much as attempts to blame Israel just because Israel killed them. The fact that I express concern for Palestinian only when praising Israel for not killing more is also amazingly progressive."
Reminds me of "Joe Lieberman is with us on every issue but the war."
If a person believes that the lives and freedom and security of Arabs are less important than those of Jews (or vice versa) then that person is not a progressive.
The kind of mentality where kids of one religion are "our children" and kids of another are not worth worrying about is why there is war.
shira
(30,109 posts)….bother him a lot more. These are supporters of Hamas who enable them in their obvious goal of maximizing Palestinian civilian deaths. Hamas cannot continue with what they're doing without such western support. When these enablers stop supporting Hamas, the game ends and Palestinians will be much safer - no more senseless wars. To be clear, this whole war could've been avoided completely if it weren't for Hamas' western enablers who Hamas knew they could count on.
And when the only choice is kill or be killed, the right thing to do is kill them first.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)whom he considers his people.
I do not get any indication that he considers hundreds of dead Palestinian kids to be anything but a talking point to be dismissed.
He can congratulate himself for bring left-wing and compassionate towards those he considers his own kind, but it's not terribly convincing.
shira
(30,109 posts)….who enable and support Hamas efforts trying to get many more of them killed?
shira
(30,109 posts)
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Are you talking about anyone who criticizes Israeli policy? I don't see that Hamas has any Western enablers, basically at all, at least nobody with any power. Sure, maybe some people living in the West manage to funnel some money over to Hamas. But, overall, the West enables Israel much more than it does Hamas. The US actually gives weapons to Israel, and blocks attempts to use the UN or other international pressure against them. It's Israel that couldn't get away with what they are doing without Western support, not Hamas.
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 25, 2014, 08:50 AM - Edit history (1)
Critical of Israel? Then YOU do better at getting rid of Hamas without harming any PalestiniansAs an Israeli, I am 100% confident that Israel is doing its utmost to get rid of Hamas while trying its hardest not to harm civilians. Yet civilians have been killed, including children – the most innocent victims of all. People all over the world are outraged, and rightly so, when they see the images of devastation emerging from Gaza. I too am outraged. But the problem is that most people, unlike me, are blaming the wrong culprit – Israel. We pulled the trigger, but we are not the ones to blame. So here’s a question to ponder for all you critics: If Israel is doing such a poor job as you claim, then presumably you can do better. Why aren’t you sending your troops to Gaza to eradicate Hamas in a manner in which not a single Palestinian civilian gets hurt? If you fail to even try, then do you deserve the right to criticize?
=======
Despite the fact that Israel has a proven track record of having a comparable, if not lower (but this is no time to brag), rate of civilian combatant deaths than many other countries or unions such as NATO, we have still failed in the eyes of the world. There are too many dead bodies being shown on tv for the hypocritical armchair critics to feel comfortable with.
Therefore I invite any country to send in their forces, or even their concerned citizens to get rid of Hamas without harming the hair on the head of any Palestinian child. Show us how it can be done. Show us how humanely you critics can do it. This isn’t simply a conflict ‘over there’, better kept at arm’s distance and not to get involved in, and far from your reality, like Syria. It is right there on your television screens each day and each night. And more fool you if you have yet to see that Israel is on the front line of the west versus extremist Islam battle (fighting our shared battle alone, I might add.) What does it matter if the analysis of the Palestinians who have been killed based on Al-Jazeera’s records prove that Israel is not killing indiscriminately? The fact of the matter is that this war is being fought on tv sets all over the world and also on the streets of London, Paris and New York.
=======
I am furious with the world, especially the western ‘civilized’ world. How dare you criticize Israel when you have never been in such a situation that we face, and when faced with a comparable situation (look at the NATO devastation in Belgrade in 1999 for a good start) you yourself have behaved worse. How dare you criticize! How dare you?! How dare you …. unless you are willing to do what needs to be done ‘better’ (more humanely) than us. Put your money (and your lives) where your mouth is. If not, how dare you criticize? A few countries might make excuses. But how can it be that out of over a hundred countries, there is no-one willing to get rid of Hamas without harming any Palestinian civilians. The message is loud and clear – you wouldn’t dare try to prove us wrong since you know we are right. But prove me wrong. Please prove me wrong.
Send in the coalition of the willing. The coalition of the brave. The coalition of the superheroes who can fight a war without creating civilian casualties. You are more than welcome.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/critical-of-israel-then-you-do-better-at-getting-rid-of-hamas-without-harming-any-palestinians/#ixzz38TtB6r86
shira
(30,109 posts)Group of ex-combat soldiers who made aliyah after serving in the IDF as lone soldiers are working to rejoin their units and participate in the fighting in Gaza; ‘We have all been multiple funerals this week, and its frustrating not to be able to help,’ group’s found says; read their open letter
======================
Open Letter
To whom this may concern,
We, The League of Lone Soldiers, are a group of around 30 former lone soldiers who all came to Israel over the last years as part of the Machal program, coming from countries across the world such as the US, UK, France and others. This is a track in the army available to anyone who isn’t an Israeli citizen, it means serving 18 months in the IDF standing shoulder to shoulder with our brothers from Israel. Most of us served in combat units including all Infantry units such as Tzanchanim, Golani, Nachal, Givati and Kfir. We are writing this letter to serve a purpose. When we heard the news of the IDF beginning Operation Protective Edge we opened a WhatsApp group with the aim of discussing how we can re-join the IDF and defend our country. We were all in unison that we didn’t join the IDF in order to serve 18 months and go back to our normal lives. Many of our units are still in active duty. We found it impossible to be in a situation where our “brothers” are fighting and defending our country and we are not there with them. Many of us called in every favour possible in order to try and re-join, however we were met with rejections across the board. We sit at home helpless, reading the news about each soldier who has been injured or killed and each one is like a bullet piercing our hearts. Most of the soldiers who have been killed have been known personally by at least one of us.
A few of us decided enough was enough and we were going to push our way back. We went to the Tel Hashomer base and stood outside for hours on end waiting to be let in. The soldiers at the main gate of the base kept asking us what we were doing there. Our answer remained the same each time. We are here from all over the world to go back to the army and defend our country. The reaction from each soldier who asked us was the same, are you crazy? they asked us, so many Israelis want to get away from the army and you crazy people not only volunteered to join in the first place, you want to go back now? After many long hours under the burning Tel Aviv sun, we managed to get a high ranking officer who happened to pass by us to listen to our story and he brought us into the base. However our happiness was short lived. We were told unequivocally by the Reserve Office that there was no way we could go back. Morale unbroken we decided to take a few days and see what we could come up with to get our wish. Yesterday we, as well as most of the world read a Ynet article on 50 soldiers who refused to answer the call of the country they were born and lived in to go back for reserves after disobeying the Tzav 8 (the IDF order calling reservists back for duty). We were in shock, the immediate reaction of everyone on the group was why waste the Tzav 8 on them? Here we are waiting and ready, bags ready to go back to the army. We decided to write this open letter and send it to whoever will listen.
We, the Lone Soldier family of the IDF, while we mourn the loss of all our brothers throughout the IDF, especially the heart-breaking losses of our friends, Max Steinberg z”l, Shawn Carmeli z”l and Jordan Bensimol z”l. 3 lone soldiers, heroes, who fell while defending this land, this safe zone for Jews across the world. We will not back down, we will not sit quietly in the corner. We want to go back to our boys in the field. Please share this letter on your Facebook so it reaches as many people as possible and opens the ears of those who need to hear about it.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4549763,00.html
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)
deathrind
(1,786 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)deathrind
(1,786 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)When Israel is threatened, I, like any Jew who understands history should be, am threatened. I CHOOSE to remain a Jew in America, a Zionist in an anti-Semitic world, and a progressive in the San Francisco bay area. I grew up with no such “choice.” I was just a stateless Arab Jew stuck in Japan in Catholic MISSIONARY SCHOOLS for too long. I was stateless because my parents had to leave their countries of origin. Iraq and Egypt are Jew-free today. We were already in Japan when Egypt cancelled my father’s passport.
It was hard to explain our statelessness. Surely were born someplace weren’t we? What was our “nationality?” “Ask Nasser” my father snapped when a government employee asked one too many times. I am a Jew. I am also a feminist, a liberal, and member of the LGBT community. I am a progressive who cannot believe what is passing for “progressive” these days.
...In “progressive” communities, being a Zionist, a supporter of Israel’s existence as a Jewish country, threatens progressive credentials. Too many members of my “community” think being “anti-Zionist” is “progressive.” And it has been going on for too long, since the 1970’s when the United Nations promoted the big lie that “Zionism is racism”. Too many “progressive” Jews think its ok to say they “used to be.”
....The left and its sister, the progressive community, is insanely condemning Israel for existing. It’s the progressive thing to do. I don’t hurt when fascists want Israel gone and all Jews disappeared, I expect it. But when “my” community screams hate towards Israel I break until I come back fighting. It is insane to expect Israel to sit and be bombed by Hamas and think it is “progressive” (if fighting back means killing Palestinians).
Yesterday it was the Jews of Europe and Arab Jews who were being ethnically cleansed. Today it is the Arab Christians and all minorities in Iraq and Syria. Forced conversion rages through the region. Where are the progressives? Why such horror towards Israel‘s attempt to exist while Hamas, Hezbollah, Boko Haram, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, and the ayatollahs of Iran, and on and on terrorize in ways we progressives cannot imagine? Are they too busy demanding supermarkets clear their shelves of “Jewish” products and nodding as the United Nations accuses Israel of “war crimes”?
Without a radical change of heart these communities can no longer legitimately call themselves progressive. It is time to reclaim our “progressive” identity.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/its-not-easy-to-be-progressive/
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)very uncomfortable facts. I've had my liberal/progressive credentials questioned by people who believe every word terrorist hamas says and call everything coming out of Israel a lie. It's why their criticism falls on deaf ears when it comes to the majority of Americans who know hypocrisy when they see it so very clearly.
shira
(30,109 posts)1. The Jews: It is an objective and implacable fact that Zionism is the largest and most significant Jewish project in at least 2,000 years, probably more. There are non-Jews who are Israeli citizens, there are Jews who intensely dislike Zionism, there are even a handful of anti-Zionist Jews in Israel. None of these facts can change the fundamental truth: in Zionism the Jews set out to re-create a national existence on the political playing field, in their ancestral homeland, and Israel is its expression, or outcome, or whatever you wish to call it. The fact that about 50% of the world’s Jews live in Israel strengthens this, (the proportion will soon tip over to more than 50%), and the fact that a majority of self-identifying Jews among the non-Israelis are Zionists, bolsters its strength, but doesn’t change it. You can’t have Jews pining for Israel over millennia and then going there, and not have it be the most important development in all those millennia.
You can rail against this for every remaining day of your life (until 120, as we Jews say), and it still won’t make the slightest difference, not even if you gather around you thousands or tens of thousands of like-minded American Jews. I think it was Abe Lincoln who once said in court something about the strength of a fart in a blizzard or some such. Live with it, Phil, because there’s nothing you can do to change it. Nothing.
(Apropos numbers: there were more Jews at the funeral of Max Steinberg last month, which I blogged a bit about, than all the committed Mondoweis Jews together, and it was just one funeral).
2. Will defend themselves: Look, I know you’re convinced Israel is the once and always, perpetual aggressor. Of course this doesn’t explain how if we’re such agressors the Palestinians keep multiplying and acquiring new assets such as the PA, parts of WB, all of Gaza, international standing etc etc. We must be really really bad at getting our job done. But as we both know, you and I can’t agree on the basic facts of this point, so let’s leave it as I said: A majority of the Jews worldwide and a total majority in Israel know we’re defending ourselves from enemies who would eagerly destroy us if they had the power, just as happened in the past. (Lots of non-Jews agree with us, by the way, either because we’ve got them under our thumb as you see it, or because it’s a simple fact, as I see it).
3. Even if it means killing: My PhD was about Nazis, and I know more about them than most people, so Godwin’s Law doesn’t APPLY to me. I can speak about Nazis as a scholar, not a demagogue. So here’s a thought experiment. Say that in order to end Nazism you had to kill 70,000 (not a few hundred) innocent, non-German civilians, Frenchmen, say. Would that be defensible? 70,000 dead French civilians, all innocent, many children, to end Nazism and as a by-product also end the Holocaust? Would that be moral? Permissible? Defendable in some later discussion? I ask because it’s not a thought experiment, it’s what the USA and UK did in 1944 as they went through France so as to destroy Nazism in Germany. Some goals, my friend, justify even horrible side effects, or collateral damage, or whatever you wish to call it. The reason being that the alternative, of allowing Nazism to stay in place, would hvae been far worse.
So If Israel has to chose between its own safety or refusing to kill any innocent bystanders whatsoever, we’ll choose to defend ourselves. You bet. Of course, we can seek shades of gray, alternatives of greater or lesser destruction, and we can argue about those and indeed, we must seek them and argue about them. But the basic framework remains solid. Our safety is to be assured even if there’s a price to it, even if some innocents die. As few as possible, hopefully, but the inevitably some, yes.
4. Just like every warring nation in history: Simple. Every single nation in human history, including in the 21st century, which finds itself at war, has one of two options regarding the moral dilemna in the preceeding paragraph. Either it accepts that it will kill some inocents in order to protect ts goals, or it doesn’t care. The Syrian don’t care. ISIS certainly doesn’t care. The North Vietnamese probably didn’t care, so far as I can tell. I don’t think the North in your Civil War much cared. The US in WWII didn’t care at all when it came to German civilians in bombable towns. Hamas certainly doesn’t care – well, actually it does. It regrets it doesn’t manage to kill more Jews and Arabs who live among them.
Anericans nowadays do care, as do the British, and a small handful of other mostly enlightened nations, Israel among them. Yet whenever they chose to go to war, they also accept they’ll be killing at least some innocent bystanders – and they then do. In Serbia in the 1990s, in Kuwait in the 1990s, in Afghanistan and Iraq in the 2000s, and yes, I’m sad to tell you, against ISIS in 2014 (and 2015? 2016? 2025?). No-one has existentially threatened the US since the 19th century, or maybe even ever. Which isn’t to say the US hasn’t fought just wars. But they were never about its very existence. And in every one of them they have killed civilians. Tragic, but true. And as long as the US CONTINUES to be at war, for whatever reasons, it will continue to kill civilians. As few as possible, one hopes, and one assumes they’ll take great efforts to limit the numbers, but to pretend you can go to war and not kill civilians is being willfully blind.
[font color = "red"]Israel, unlike the US, faces enemies who proudly broadcast their intention to destroy it, in the most basic meaning of the word “destroy”. So Israel must choose: will it defend itself even if thereby some number of innocent civilians die, or will it not defend itself, and thereby large numbers of its own civilians will die.
The answer is clear. Any other answer would be immoral.[/font]
So, that’s it. I know your methodology, and that of your fans. You’ll now turn to all sorts of other objections and whatabouttery. But I’ve responded to the questions as you posed them, and that’s enough. The whatabouttery is, by definition, about other matters.
- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/themselves-killing-children#sthash.LfQpHmEV.dpuf
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)killing children in the name of self defense is okay?
shira
(30,109 posts)If that means going to war where innocents will inevitably be killed, then that's what must happen.
How many ways do I have to say YES, I agree with Lozowick?
The Rabbi from the OP in posts #1 and #2 said the exact same thing:
We will do what we must to protect our people. We have that right. We are not less deserving of life and quiet than anyone else.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)No one is saying Israel should just go out and kill random children when Jews are threatened.
whosinpower1
(85 posts)Because the "other" side, whomever that would be, will also be stating the exact same criteria. I suppose they have that right too.
"We will do what we must to protect our people. We have that right. We are not less deserving of life and quiet than anyone else."
If that means going to war where innocents will inevitably be killed, then that's what must happen.
shira
(30,109 posts)You should realize that's simply unacceptable.
No other nation on the planet would allow that. And it can be argued that the civilian toll would be far worse had any other nation responded to such attacks.
whosinpower1
(85 posts)Destroy Hamas? If this is so, then Israel has failed every single time. How do you destroy an ideology? After the last "operation", Hamas has come out stronger than ever. Well done.
I think in the case of hamas, the past has proven that a military response is a bandaid to a cancer. But....even a cancer is useful-sadly.
shira
(30,109 posts)Seems like a good goal that would then lead to an end to the blockade and better conditions on the ground for Gazans.
========
The same could be asked of the US regarding ISIS. What's the goal? Without ground troops, bombing from the air will not destroy them. So then what?
whosinpower1
(85 posts)Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
You stated goals and reality are oceans apart....and you know it.
The blockade will never end while Hamas controls Gaza-and now they are more popular there than ever. That is useful to deter any peace process, or land negotiation-is it not?
shira
(30,109 posts)Let's say Bibi decided not to fire back while hundreds, then thousands, of rockets fall on Israel's cities. No military response by Israel.
How long would Bibi remain in office? He'd be replaced by someone even more rightwing.
whosinpower1
(85 posts)And reeks of false choices. Netanyahu had many options available to him-before the rockets. He chose to politicize the kidnappings in favour of exploding the unity government.
Such is the obvious answer when a "greater Israel", is the goal. Hamas is a useful ally in this case-Netanyahu's best friend.
shira
(30,109 posts)Do you not know what Hamas is all about? Read their charter. They don't hide the fact that they seek Israel's destruction and the death of Jews both in Israel and outside of the land. Their goal isn't a peaceful 2-state solution. It's not even a national Palestinian state, but rather an Islamic Caliphate. They treat their own people like shit, so it's no surprise their enemies are to be treated worse.
There can be no genuine agreement that Bibi or anyone from Israel's Left can get Hamas to come to terms with.
I suppose if you MUST always see Israel as the monster & aggressor, then it's important to pretend Hamas is reasonable. That way, Hamas is treated as poor little victims of the evil Israeli empire. Fun game to play but wholly unrelated to reality.
The fact is that Netanyahu didn't want a war. He agreed to multiple ceasefire arrangements, all of which Hamas rejected. I will note for the record that NONE of Israel's most hostile critics condemned Hamas for rejecting each ceasefire arrangement. They generally backed Hamas terror in the hopes that Israel would capitulate to their demands. Israel never did cave to Hamas demands and Hamas had their asses handed to them, forced to accept the conditions Israel and Egypt set at the beginning of the war, before 2000 Palestinians were killed. In large part I blame Hamas' western enablers who rooted the terrorists on and did their anti-Israel propaganda for free (cries of genocide, no Hamas human shields, etc.). They should have BEGGED Hamas to cease hostilities. Instead they focused on Israel, damning the Jewish state for daring to defend its citizens.
I posted an article just hours before the war broke out. It was an article calling out all the anti-Israel bashers for NOT condemning Hamas or begging them to stop with the rockets. I'll see if I can find it...
Here it is:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113466312
whosinpower1
(85 posts)I am familiar with Hamas charter - yes. I reject them categorically. I think the rockets are utterly stupid - but Hamas only wants to fight - they are not interested in actually governing. Are you familiar with the Likud Platform?
snip - a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.
Israel also rejected MANY ceasefires. Bibi uses Hamas. And, if it isn't Hamas, it will be some other group - anyone, anyone at all to deter ANY AND ALL NEGOTIATION that includes land.
It has been almost a month now - and no rockets. Are Israel and the unity government negotiating??? Have they eased the blockade??? Why did Israel take 1000 acres in the west bank???? If a person were to merely look up to the Likud platform, then it is clear that it does not matter what Hamas does - if they fire rockets, they are condemned. If they do not fire rockets - they are ignored. If they were to disappear altogether, some other menace would immediately be named as a barrier to negotiating a final peace settlement with the palistinians.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but Israel chose this war, by unleashing a pogrom against Palestinians in the West Bank under the guise of searching for the missing teenagers, then when Israel decided to announce that their bodies had been found it also announced that it had the knowledge that they were dead all along via a phone call in which they were executed by their captures, all of which had everything to do with breaking the unity coalition
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)On Sunday, the tenth day of Israel’s search for three teenagers kidnapped June 12, Deputy Defense Minister Danny Danon (Likud) said he was in favor of a “wide-reaching operation against the civilian population” of Gaza and the West Bank.
Acknowledging that his idea was “harsh,” he suggested that the ends justified the means, and that disrupting the Palestinians’ lives – for example by cutting off electricity for a few days — would be helpful in focusing the world’s attention on the missing teens.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/is-israels-operation-to-find-kidnapped-teens-a-war-crime/#ixzz3DQ2g5ae6
From the moment they first learned of the kidnappings of Shaer, Naftali Fraenkel and Eyal Yifrah, the security forces have had a working assessment that the teenagers were murdered soon after being kidnapped, as they sat in the back seat of the vehicle they entered at the hitchhiking post outside Alon Shvut. Publicly a number of security officials said they believed the youths were still alive.
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/In-extended-version-of-kidnapped-teens-call-to-police-murderers-heard-singing-in-celebration-361270
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)until Israel's pogrom now did they?
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)even Israel's military establishment admitted the target of the tunnels was IDF not civilians
Hebrew version-
טל לב רם
גורם צבאי בכיר העריך הערב (חמישי
בשיחה עם גלי צה"ל כי צה"ל יכול להשלים את המשימה של השמדת המנהרות תוך 48 שעות. הגורם הצבאי אמר כי "כל המנהרות כוונו לעבר מטרות צבאיות ולא לעבר יישובים בעוטף עזה", וכי "לא היה מספיק קשב לאומי-צבאי לעניין המנהרות".
לגבי מחירי המבצע עד כה, אמר אותו גורם צבאי בכיר כי היה "חותם על כך בשתי ידיים" טרם היציאה למבצע, זאת נוכח ההישגים. גורם אמר לגלי צה"ל כי היה נכון להגיע לפגיעה ביותר בכירי חמאס במבצע הנוכחי, וכי כ-90% מהמנהרות כבר סוכלו ברחבי הרצועה.
http://glz.co.il/1064-47425-he/Galatz.aspx
translated using Google Translate link included just in case
A senior military official told Army Radio this evening that "all the tunnels were aimed at military targets and not at the Gaza vicinity communities" and that the operation was not yet "signs with both hands" in prices to date. Etc. He added: "There was not enough national attention with regard to military tunnels "
Tal Lev Ram
A senior military official estimated that tonight (Thursday) in a conversation with Army Radio that the IDF can complete the task of destroying the tunnels within 48 hours. Military official said: "All the tunnels were aimed at military targets and not at the Gaza vicinity communities" and that "there was not enough international attention regarding the military-tunnel".
Prices for the operation so far, it said that the senior military official was "a mark on it with both hands" yet to the operation, in view of the achievements. Army Radio said the cause was right to reach the most senior Hamas harm to the current operation, and that about 90% of the tunnels in the Gaza Strip have been thwarted.
https://translate.google.com/
shira
(30,109 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)when complaints are shown to be nothing more that just stirring the pot, and trying to get other nations involved, then this would amount to something.
This particular person just writes an article to complain that someone has point by point explained the fallacy.
Complaining about complaints has accomplished exactly nothing in the world.
AwareOne
(404 posts)harboring an illegal nuclear arsenal, undeclared WMDs. They routinely violate international law, treaties and UN sanctions. They routinely violate the sovereignty of other nations , they are thugs and bullies on the international scene.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)their nuclear arsenal illegal?
"I'm a progressive, but hundreds of dead Palestinians don't bother me nearly as much as attempts to blame Israel just because Israel killed them."
That is an amazing statement.
shira
(30,109 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)geek tragedy quoted the same sentence above.
Probably someone told him that displaying his true callous disdain for the lives of Palestinian civilians isn't a good PR strategy.
shira
(30,109 posts)I quoted the entire article in the first 2 posts.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The edit date on the HuffPo article is a long time ago.
enid602
(8,610 posts)"In just the last 48 hours, Israel has allowed over 10 tons of goods into Gaza." So generous. That's over 1/100th of a pound of goods per person. I don't know if I could survive on so few 'goods' over a 48 hour period. This generosity shows what kind of a deal the Palestinians can expect from Bibi the Butcher.
shira
(30,109 posts)....in order to minimize Palestinian casualties. It would have been FAR easier to bomb from the skies and never risk even one soldier's life. Like what NATO did in Kosovo, or what the US does with its drones in Pakistan, and also what the US is doing now to ISIS.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)Of course one can call themselves whatever they want, I could refer to myself as a purple unicorn if I wanted. However, Zionism and progressivism are not compatible
shira
(30,109 posts)An indigenous people returning to their ancient historical and cultural home is extremely progressive.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)But it really boils down to colonialism and nationalism, neither are progressive. This is why American "liberal" Zionists are strangely supportive of right wing coalitions in Israel, they're phonies.
shira
(30,109 posts)Anti-Zionism is what is not progressive.
Replacing a liberal democracy with a fascist totalitarian Hamastan or something on the order of a failed state like Jordan, Syria, or Egypt isn't progressive either.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)Why Israel Lies
shira
(30,109 posts)He was ripped back then...
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=4&x_context=2
And here's a HUGE lie from Hedges article:
How about this, Chris?
How about this, Chris?
How about this, Chris?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fa0_1407071025
