Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumHamas announces new 24-hour Gaza ceasefire with Israel
Palestinian militant group Hamas has announced a 24-hour ceasefire after Israel ended an earlier truce amid continuing rocket fire from Gaza.
Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, said the ceasefire would start from 14:00 local time (11:00 GMT).
There is no formal Israeli response but a military spokesman said the offer was "an opportunity perhaps".
Some 1,060 Palestinians, mostly civilians, and 43 Israeli soldiers and two civilians have died since 8 July.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28511075
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bemildred
(90,061 posts)Things change, of course – the only constant in the Middle East is sudden and dramatic change – but as I write it seems as if Israel is losing the war in Gaza, even as it wins the battle against Hamas’s rocket arsenal, and even as it destroys the tunnels meant to convey terrorists underground to Israel (and to carry Israeli hostages back to Gaza.)
This is not the first time Israel has found itself losing on the battlefield of perception. Why is it happening again? Here are five possible reasons:
1. In a fight between a state actor and a non-state actor, the non-state actor can win merely by surviving. The party with tanks and planes is expected to win; the non-state group merely has to stay alive in order to declare victory. In a completely decontextualized, emotion-driven environment, Hamas can portray itself as the besieged upstart, even when it is the party that rejects ceasefires, and in particular because it is skilled at preventing journalists from documenting the activities of its armed wing. (I am differentiating here between Hamas' leadership and Gaza's victimized civilians, who are genuinely besieged, from all directions.)
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/why-is-israel-losing-a-war-its-winning/375116/
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)2. People talk a lot about the Jewish lobby. But the worldwide Muslim lobby is bigger, comprising, among other components, 54 Muslim-majority states in the United Nations. Many Muslims naturally sympathize with the Palestinian cause. They make their voices heard, and they help shape a global anti-Israel narrative, in particular by focusing relentlessly on Gaza to the exclusion of conflicts in which Muslims are being killed in even greater numbers, but by Muslims (I wrote about this phenomenon here).
Yea, that small minor thing...life in Gaza.
The Look Over There Not Here phenomenon, he might want to write about that one day.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)A good example of the delusional babble coming from inside the Israeli bubble. The one rule is it isn't them, it's never them, this situation has nothing to do with them, it's just an unfortuate circumstance forced upon Israelis by obstinate Palestinians.
Edit: Yeah, Jeffery Goldberg.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)grrr, lots of irony today, bemildred. Damn Palestinians.
Good thread, lots of information..thanks.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I'm just watching at this point, no idea what comes next.
Certain days of the week you get news dumps, other days it's all trite babble and cliches. Sundays are often busy, for some reason.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)change on a dime, imho.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)WASHINGTON (AP) -- Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he realizes world opinion might be shifting away from his nation with every Palestinian civilian's death, but adds that the public relations battle cannot supersede Israel's security.
Netanyahu told CBS' "Face the Nation" on Sunday that Palestinians are using their civilians as what he calls "human shields" against Israel's military campaign into Gaza. Netanyahu says his nation's efforts to secure itself will not yield despite growing concern about deaths at the hands of Israel's lethal force.
Netanyahu insists Israel is not targeting civilians but says that Hamas wants non-military bodies to pile up for cameras to capture. He says the Palestinians must be both discredited and disarmed.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS_NETANYAHU?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-07-27-09-06-43
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Amid Israel's Operation Protective Edge to stop Hamas rocket fire from Gaza, a "Freedom Flotilla" was being organized in Turkey to bring humanitarian aid to the Hamas controlled Palestinian coastal enclave.
The flotilla being organized, called the "Freedom Flotilla II," is the successor of the Mavi Marmara flotilla that sought to break Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip in May 2010.
The new flotilla is being organized by the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief" (Insani Yardim Vakfi), otherwise known as the IHH, the same organization behind the Mavi Marmara ship, which Israel Navy commandos boarded, killing nine aboard who attacked them.
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Freedom-Flotilla-II-set-to-sail-for-Gaza-from-Turkey-369065
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I’ve known Ashraf for 14 years. When I began working as a reporter on Arab affairs, he accompanied me on my journeys to Gaza until, in 2007 if I’m not mistaken, Israeli reporters were forbidden to enter the Strip out of fears for their safety.
Still, in those seven years we managed to accumulate quite a few shared experiences. There were cases in which my life was in danger, when Ashraf always knew how to steer me to safety, along with lighter experiences, visits to his family’s home in Beit Hanun, Iftar meals and more. In the past few days we had been in continuous contact and he told me his family had left their town near the Israeli border for fear of being hit and, like tens of thousands of others, had moved to a different neighborhood deeper in the Strip.
On Saturday, several hours into the humanitarian truce, I hoped he wouldn’t call me. Somehow I knew that if he called during those hours, it meant something had happened to the house. And the call came.
“The house is gone,” he said. “My house is gone and my sister’s which was next to it. They’ve destroyed it completely. Completely.”
http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-earthquake-in-gaza/
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)now they want a new one after Israel retaliated for the rockets launched?
PCIntern
(25,531 posts)the terrorists attempt to make the rules. It is up to rational civilized people to rein them in.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)PCIntern
(25,531 posts)Yeah....those terrorist Joooos, right? Hundreds of thousands of Irgun members converged on the Hotel! As far as the eye could see, it was Joooooish terrorists! Blowing up Hotels!!!!!! Hundreds of Hotels!
Give me a fricking break...
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Well if you want to call them that then you go right ahead.
The point being that Israeli terrorists are somehow different from other terrorists?
Terrorism and murder by terrorists is all pretty vile.
So please don't candy coat Israel's bullshit past or run to the "Joooos" moniker.
Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #49)
Post removed
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)But you know that...
bemildred
(90,061 posts)----
Dr Gershon Baskin, who once negotiated with Hamas to release a kidnapped soldier, is calling on
Israel to forge closer ties with Egypt and Jordan and accept Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.
He outlined his plan to British Jews at a meeting for pro-Israel, pro-peace organisation Yachad in North London last week.
Dr Baskin called for a multi-nation Arab Force, led by the Palestinian Authority, to demilitarise the Gaza Strip and offer hope to its 1.7million citizens.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/israeli-academic-urges-britain-back-3921209
bemildred
(90,061 posts)When The Times of Israel’s Avi Issacharoff first reported the content of John Kerry’s ceasefire proposal on Friday afternoon, I wondered if something had gotten lost in translation. It seemed inconceivable that the American secretary of state would have drafted an initiative that, as a priority, did not require the dismantling of Hamas’s rocket arsenal and network of tunnels dug under the Israeli border. Yet the reported text did not address these issues at all, nor call for the demilitarization of Gaza.
t seemed inconceivable that the secretary’s initiative would specify the need to address Hamas’s demands for a lifting of the siege of Gaza, as though Hamas were a legitimate injured party acting in the interests of the people of Gaza — rather than the terror group that violently seized control of the Strip in 2007, diverted Gaza’s resources to its war effort against Israel, and could be relied upon to exploit any lifting of the “siege” in order to import yet more devastating weaponry with which to kill Israelis.
Israel and the US are meant to be allies; the US is meant to be committed to the protection of Israel in this most ruthless of neighborhoods; together, the US and Israel are meant to be trying to marginalize the murderous Islamic extremism that threatens the free world. Yet here was the top US diplomat appearing to accommodate a vicious terrorist organization bent on Israel’s destruction, with a formula that would leave Hamas better equipped to achieve that goal.
The appalled response to the Kerry proposal by the members of the security cabinet on Friday night, however, made plain nothing had gotten lost in translation at all. The secretary’s proposal managed to unite Israel’s disparate group of key political leaders — from Naftali Bennett and Avigdor Liberman on the right, through Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, to Yair Lapid and Tzipi Livni on the center-left — in a unanimous response of horrified rejection and leaked castigation.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/john-kerry-the-betrayal/
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)PCIntern
(25,531 posts)the back-channels contain information none of us will hear about for at least three years. Read any competently written history of the conflicts in the region since 1948 and the kicker is the thing about which you do not know until years later. An example of that in the West was the removal of missiles from Turkey to resolve the Bay of Pigs crisis. Lots going on here...they just had the temerity not to post it on DU.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)So you feel that there are people conspiring in the background? I quite agree.
However:
1.) They often do it incompetently and don't get what they want.
2.) It is dififcult to see the outcome ahead of time, and yet people often think they do.
In this case I see various "solutions" and "offers" being sent up as trial balloons, and those trial balloons being viewed with horror by other parties who don't like them.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Hamas spokesman said truce went into effect at 2pm local time (noon UK time) today ahead of the end of Ramadan
Ceasefire is the second in two days after Israel responded to rocket fire during previous lull with air strikes
But as 2pm came and went, journalists and residents could still hear shelling in Gaza and rocket sirens in Israel
Yesterday scores of bodies were pulled from the rubble in Gaza City raising overall Palestinian death toll to 1,060
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2707326/Second-Gaza-ceasefire.html
bemildred
(90,061 posts)ERUSALEM, July 27 (UPI) --The United Nations appealed to Israel on Sunday to accept a 24-hour cease-fire agreed to by Hamas.
Israel and Hamas hadn't been able to come to an agreement over the weekend on a potential 24-hour cease-fire as a rocket from Gaza killed one Israeli soldier in the 19th day of fighting.
A 12-hour truce between the two sides expired at 8 p.m. local time Saturday, or 1 p.m. ET. Israel agreed to a four-hour extension of the cease-fire, but at the conclusion of the 12-hour period, rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel.
A second truce, for 24 hours, was proposed by the United Nations and Israel agreed as long as it could continue destroying tunnels leading from Gaza into Israel.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2014/07/27/Hamas-agrees-to-24-hour-truce-UN-appealing-to-Israel/6101406473339/
As usual, they are bickering over who gets to go first.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)The Palestinian Authority is fuming at US Secretary of State John Kerry, accusing him of trying to undermine the Egyptian ceasefire initiative endorsed by Israel and the PA last week and rejected by Hamas, an Arab daily reported on Sunday.
Palestinian sources told the London-based A-Sharq Al-Awsat that Kerry had initially agreed to an Egyptian proposal for an immediate ceasefire followed by five days of negotiations between Israel and the PA, with American assurances to address some of Hamas’s demands. But on Friday evening Kerry produced a new plan based on consultations with Qatar and Turkey and conducted between “the State of Israel” and “the Palestinian factions,” excluding the PA. The Israeli cabinet unanimously rejected Kerry’s plan.
“Kerry tried, through his latest plan, to destroy the Egyptian bid and the Palestinian remarks on it (the Abbas plan). His initiative is an alternative to ours,” an unnamed Palestinian official told A-Sharq Al-Awsat. “Kerry was in fact trying to create an alternative framework to the Egyptian initiative and our understanding of it, in a way that placates the Qataris and the Turks.”
The Palestinian source said that PA negotiators were “very close” to finalizing a ceasefire deal that would insure the lifting of the blockade over Gaza and “realize all Palestinian demands.”
http://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-fumes-at-kerry-over-alternative-ceasefire-bid/
bemildred
(90,061 posts)The cease-fire draft U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry presented to Israel on Friday evening contained practically no mention of Israel's security needs or of demilitarizing the Gaza Strip of rockets and heavy weaponry or of the need of destroying the terror tunnels linking Gaza to Israeli territory, according to a draft of the document obtained by Haaretz, revealed here for the first time.
The one-page document, marked "confidential," was submitted to the Prime Minister's Bureau on Friday at 5 P.M. as the security cabinet was meeting. The draft is titled "Framework for Humanitarian Ceasefire in Gaza."
The draft described the urgent need of "protecting civilian lives, ending all hostilities in and from the Gaza Strip and achieving a sustainable cease-fire and enduring resolution of the crisis." The draft said that as such, the two sides - "the Palestinian factions and the State of Israel" have agreed to make the following commitments, detailed in three subsequent clauses:
a) Establish a humanitarian cease-fire, ending all hostilities in and from the Gaza Strip, beginning in 48 hours [Sunday evening], and lasting for a period of seven days
b) Build on the Cairo cease-fire understandings of November 2012 [reached following Operation Cast Lead]
c) Convene in Cairo, at the invitation of Egypt, within 48 hours to negotiate resolution of all issues necessary to achieve a sustainable cease-fire and enduring solution to the crisis in Gaza.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.607379
deathrind
(1,786 posts)PCIntern
(25,531 posts)thus evening out the score. After all, there is nothing duller than a blowout athletic contest now, is there?
And you know what? The sad fact is that the number of Palestinian dead, FOR WHOM I GRIEVE DESPITE WHAT OTHERS MIGHT SAY HERE, would be a lot smaller if the cowardly Hamas were not hiding behind them.
And you know what else? If the Israelis had not put billions into their defense establishment with respect to Iron Dome and DEW systems, their number would be a lot higher. After all, with their concrete the Israelis built shelters, with their concrete the Hamas built tunnels.
deathrind
(1,786 posts)1.8 million people on a strip of land that is 139 sq miles in size. That is ~13,000 people per sq mile.
There is no defense for shooting the hostage in order to get the hostage taker.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)that Hamas is hunkered down in the urban centers, not out in the open. They plant their rockets, launch sites, weapon depots, etc at hospitals, schools, mosques. It is quite deliberate by Hamas to try to get Israel to maximize civilian deaths. They hope to rally more Palestinians to their side and get the sympathy of the world on their side as well.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)The Israeli army said that 30 rockets were fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel on Sunday.
"So far today, 28 rockets fired from Gaza hit Israel," the Israeli army said on Twitter.
It added that only two rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome anti-missile defense system.
Earlier in the day, the Ezzeddin al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Palestinian faction Hamas, said that it had fired several rockets at Israeli cities, including Tel Aviv and Ashdod.
http://www.aa.com.tr/en/rss/365496--28-gaza-rockets-hit-israel-sunday-army
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Israel’s incremental operational plan for the Gaza operation, beginning with an aerial campaign and slowly increasing in intensity, was a mistake, the former head of Israel’s Military Intelligence directorate said Sunday.
Maj. Gen. (ret) Amos Yadlin said that there are merits in the approach adopted by the government, in that it preserves Israeli legitimacy and it allows multiple exit points for de-escalation, but “in hindsight, this was not the right strategy.”
A sharp, forceful move at the onset, exerting immediate pressure on the military wing of Hamas, he said in a conference call, would have been “a much smarter” option.
The conflict, which is increasingly taking on the proportions of a full-fledged war, is in its 20th day. Thus far, 43 Israeli soldiers have been killed since the beginning of the ground operation on July 17 and over 1,000 people in Gaza have been killed, according to Palestinian sources, since the beginning of the aerial offensive on July 8. Several attempts at nailing down a ceasefire agreement have failed, as have the brief humanitarian windows granted by Israel to residents of the Gaza Strip.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-intel-chief-incremental-strategy-in-gaza-op-a-mistake/
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) on Sunday accused the United Nations of anti-semitism over the Human Rights Council's decision to investigate whether Israel violated international law during its ground operation in Gaza.
"I would, when it came to Israel, condemn the UN Human Rights report that holds Israel responsible for the activity here," Graham said on CNN's "State of the Union." "The UN Human Rights report is a joke. The UN is becoming more anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic."
Graham said that he, along with other senators, will "push back against this report."
The UN has not officially accused Israel of war crimes, but Navi Pillay, the UN high commissioner for human rights, said that Israel might not be doing enough to protect civilians in Gaza.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/graham-accuses-un-anti-semitic
bemildred
(90,061 posts)House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said Sunday that the president has been “in the lead” in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
“The president’s leadership has been very strong,” she said on CNN, adding that the presence in the Middle East of Secretary of State John Kerry is a “manifestation of the president’s commitment because it’s a sustained, high-level commitment.”
The California Democrat added that Israel cannot be faulted for defending itself, especially if civilians are accidentally killed because Palestinians are using their people as human shields.
“War is a deadly thing,” she said. “But let me just say that any missile that comes from someplace has a return address. And if Israel is responding to that address, it’s a shame the Palestinians are rumored to be using families and children as shields for their missiles.”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/27/pelosi-obamas-leadership-israel-strong/
bemildred
(90,061 posts)JERUSALEM — A network of tunnels Palestinian militants have dug from Gaza to Israel — dubbed “lower Gaza” by the Israeli military — is taking center stage in the latest war between Hamas and Israel.
Gaza’s Hamas rulers view them as a military game changer in its conflict with Israel. The Israeli military says the tunnels pose a serious threat and that destroying the sophisticated underground network is a key objective of its invasion of Gaza.
Israel has known about the tunnels for several years, but has been hard-pressed to find an effective way to block them. Now it is counting on its ground war to at least reduce the threat.
“Israel knew there was a problem with the tunnels, but it didn’t internalize their significance,” said Shlomo Brom, a retired Israeli general. “At any given moment, Hamas could send dozens of militants through separate tunnels to attack communities in Israel.”
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nation-and-world/hamas-tunnels-could-be-game-changer-conflict-israel
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)and such to identify for certain the tunnels and maybe begin to end the madness?
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Like I said, it will take a while for everybody to grasp the situation.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)than later.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)---
Israel later accepted a UN-requested 24-hour ceasefire until the end of Sunday, although it said ground forces would continue to destroy tunnels used by Hamas.
However, the Israeli military announced on Sunday morning it had decided to resume its air, ground and naval raids on Gaza in response to "incessant rocket fire" from Hamas, which has controlled Gaza since seizing power there in 2007.
Shortly after Israeli raids resumed, Hamas said it had decided to agree to a humanitarian truce, starting at 14:00 local time (11:00 GMT).
---
But in an interview with CNN, Mr Netanyahu said: "Hamas doesn't even accept its own ceasefire. It's continuing to fire at us as we speak".
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28515226
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Two decades, thousands of hours of live broadcasts and “a new Middle East” have shown that Al Jazeera not only cheers on revolutions, but also covers radical Islamic movements in the turbulent Middle East with sympathy and empathy. It began with its exclusive releases of al-Qaeda videos back in the days of Osama bin Laden and was subsequently manifest in its unqualified support for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, as well as in its backing of Hamas in Gaza – and this, not for the first time.
Its support of Hamas was especially notable during the coup staged by the movement's military wing in Gaza in June 2007 and the ensuing violent expulsion of Fatah activists. The network’s correspondents in Gaza and its newscasters in Qatar have not criticized the perpetrators of the Gaza coup or the rule of fear established there by Hamas. The editorial line of Al Jazeera on the Palestinian issue has been clear and transparent. It has been and still is hostile to the Palestinian Authority of President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank and favors Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
Hence, the tone of the network’s broadcasts throughout the military operation in Gaza should have come as no surprise to anyone. Nevertheless, for some reason or another, the coordinator of government activities in the territories, as well as other Israeli spokespeople, on behalf of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (the English-speaking spokespeople appeared on Al Jazeera's international broadcasts), decided for some reason to accept the network's invitation. Perhaps, they figured, or hoped, that they would be able to convince its anchors and the tens of millions of its viewers that Hamas is the bad guy in the conflict. The interview went as follows.
Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/qatar-al-jazeera-israel-idf-official-spokespersons-israel.html#ixzz38gbjaHj5
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)One example of bullshit, among others:
Viewers watching nothing but broadcasts of Al Jazeera in Arabic might be misled into believing that Israel has embarked on a military operation in the Gaza Strip out of the blue, for no good reason, and that the Israeli army launched an attack against Hamas targets there just to satisfy the whims of its leaders. Likewise, the devoted viewers of Al Jazeera might have no idea that for 17 days now, Hamas has been firing hundreds of rockets at Israel's civilian population centers.
Poor Israeli policy, so misunderstood, so poorly represented...ack.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)It tells you what they want you to think, and what ideas they want to fend off.
They want you to think Israel is doing this for good reasons, for example, and that tells you they are worried that you won't.
And they want to emphasize the rockets for the same reason, they are the "good reason".
And they want to emphasize that you should pay no attention to al Jazeera, because they question and undermine the "good reason" argument.
That is what that snippet says.
Edit: and you are supposed to feel sorry for them.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)attention to the conflict, or someone who is already predisposed to distrust Arab news..who buys this crap?
I guess it makes sense if you look at it as a just in case defense, always create distrust..it can't hurt your
cause..I don't know.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)If you see what I mean. People who want to understand what is happening now and what is coming have to read around, see what everybody has to say. But since pretty much everybody lies constantly, you have to take a critical eye and look at their argument in the context of their motives. You can find out what they fear and what they want.
Israel, now apprised of the difficulties the tunnels and the improved rockets present, wants Hamas disarmed. It should be explored what price they are willing to pay to get that, most especially because they are not in a position to force the issue. The Palestinians have some real leverage.
And Hamas wants the blockade lifted and the freedom to govern themselves. It should be explored what price they are willing to pay to get that too.
I am kind of pleased that Kerry is looking into that, as it appears, thinking in terms of long-term stability, not short term political maneuvering only. Possibly the US government is getting tired of this shit happening over and over, and is not so interested in dominating the Middle East any more.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Kerry's thinking seems smart and not unreasonable, so far anyway.
I don't want to tick people off so I'll refrain who I believe can be trusted more and why.
Most important is, if talks don't prove fruitful enough, and the death toll rises,
will Kerry and the EU begin to put a different kind of external pressure..they're
dealing with Bibi's crazy cabinet...Bibi being the most sane, I think.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)snip*Kerry isn’t anti-Israeli; on the contrary, he’s a true friend to Israel. But his conduct in recent days over the Gaza cease-fire raises serious doubts over his judgment and perception of regional events. It’s as if he isn’t the foreign minister of the world’s most powerful nation, but an alien, who just disembarked his spaceship in the Mideast. For a few moments Friday one could not avoid recalling the things Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon said about Kerry, and admit that despite the fact that it wasn’t appropriate, he may have had a point.
If Kerry did anything on Friday it was to thwart the possibility of reaching a cease-fire in Gaza. Instead of promoting a cease-fire, Kerry pushed it away. If this failed diplomatic attempt leads Israel to escalate its operation in Gaza, the American secretary of state will be one of those responsible for every additional drop of blood that is spilled.
http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/diplomania/.premium-1.607332
bemildred
(90,061 posts)We have the same problems with our political discourse here, the "manufactured consent" gets so far off the track of what's happening that things stop making sense.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)which Israel is right now, it is impossible to prevent civilian casualties. Could Israel do more to try to limit them? probably, but that probably would require hand to hand, house to house fighting, which might result in an even bloodier outcome. It does not help that Hamas launches its attacks from urban centers, quite deliberately, which increases the chances of civilian casualties (either from Israel striking at those launch sites which then attacks those sites, or from errant missiles from Hamas, Hamas weapons storage sites being blown up, etc)
If you look at other wars where battling in urban center was involved, civilian casualties was always a problem.
Hamas does not help the Palestinian civilians with its tunnels under these urban centers in to Israel. Nor by trying to sneak in to Israel wearing Israeli uniforms (a war crime btw).
Israel needs to do a better job in limiting civilian casualties. But at the same time people need to realize that Hamas is an illegally armed terror organization, that does not follow the rules of war at all.
I hope a permanent cease fire is established, with an armed peace keeping troop put in to Gaza to disarm Hamas, root out all the tunnels. At the same time Israel opens the borders to Gaza to allow in food, humanitarian aid.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I think the elements for it are there. But there is no trust, so something will have to be worked out, probably third party guarantees and peacekeepers and stuff like that. And lots of transparency.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Israel will not find all of the cross-border tunnels in Gaza during this operation. And if Hamas is able to secure ceasefire terms that give it sufficient room to do so, it will commence digging anew after this conflict is over, a former senior commander in the IDF’s Combat Engineering Corps said Sunday.
“We won’t find all of them,” said Col. (res) Atai Shelach, former commander of the elite Yahalom unit that tackles the tunnels, “and the moment we leave. they will start digging again.”
The Israeli army has found more than 30 tunnels that cross underground from Gaza to Israel. The channels are often wider than a man’s shoulders and close to six feet high; they are supported with hundreds of tons of concrete arches and frequently reach a maximum depth of 20 meters below ground level. Most of the tunnels are well lit and properly ventilated. Soldiers on the ground in Gaza have reported finding explosives and arms stashed within the tunnels and, on several occasions after thwarting underground infiltration attempts, have found Hamas operatives armed with zip ties and narcotic drugs meant to facilitate a kidnapping.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-will-restart-tunneling-as-soon-as-we-leave-idf-officer-says/