I need to be informed...

[babylonsister]

In the King James Version, Leviticus 18:22 is translated: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."


I just got this from someone who I'm trying to reason with.

All I can remember is Colbert's FB thingie saying 'God' never said that.

I'm not religious, don't have a clue what the King James version is, so any help would be welcome.

Edit to add: this person doesn't seem to be a gay basher, but has a problem with gay people being married because of religion, even though he's not particularly religious.
I dunno; might be wasting my time trying to inform?

[xfundy]

1. King James Version (KJV-1611)

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorized_King_James_Version

[elleng]

2. I don't know, but

This verse is one of the famous six "clobber" passages from the Bible that is often used to condemn same-sex sexual activity.

In the King James Version, Leviticus 18:22 is translated: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Although the verse appears to most readers to apply only to sexual behavior between two males, at least two Bible translations appear to mistranslate the verse in order to widen its scope to include lesbian sexual activity:

Living Bible: "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin"
New Living Translation: "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh.htm

[msongs]

3. king james is a poetically written collection of myths, superstition, and witchcraft :-)

and only few specific lines are actually practiced or followed by its most serious readers. How many gay bashers are eating their ham and eggs while wearing their poly/cotton clothes, after having just shaved in the morning? hmmm

[babylonsister]

6. Opinion or fact about King James, and do you have a link? That would be GREAT! nt

[SoutherDem]

8. I don't mean to answer for msongs but I would agree,

no link just experience.

When the "New King James" version was published a "reprint" of the original 1611 King James was released this used the exact printing from 1611. It was amazing how many spellings changed among other things, but people do claim that is the "true" bible, I even know some who pray in King James with thees and thous.

Many Christian churches have given up the King James, because it is difficult to understand and many biblical scholars feel it is mistranslated at times.

[Phlem]

12. Still written by man.

Cause the almighty God needs translators for the book he didn't write.

I believe in God but it's a personal and individual relationship. My God laughs at bibles, scripture, and organized religion because his message is a simple four letter sentence, take care of each other. My God is ALL LOVING and FORGIVING. He hates or punishes no one.
That is all man's doing.

God is love, it's as simple as that.

-p

[xfundy]

4. Also--

A great resource for dealing with bible-beating bigots:

www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

[TheWraith]

5. Point out some of the other things Leviticus bans--or allows.

Like the purchase of slaves. Leviticus 25:44.

Eating shellfish, which is an "abomination" like gay sex. Leviticus 11:10.

Wearing garments made from two different kinds of thread. Leviticus 19:19.

Or you could ask them, if God really has it in for homosexuality, why he seems to only be forbidding men from screwing around and giving a free pass to the lesbians.

[babylonsister]

9. He did tell me he didn't have a clue about lesbians.

And we agreed to disagree, but I just thought I'd float this here. I think I read too much on FB that I take for fact. ???

[babylonsister]

13. This person doesn't think gay sex is an abomination. He

has a problem with marriage.

I'll either work on him or give it up for a lost cause.

[Orangepeel]

19. There's really no reasoning with bigotry, but you can try the religious freedom angle

If he has a problem with "gay marriage" he doesn't have to get gay married. Churches that have a problem don't have to sanction same sex marriages, just like they don't have to sanction any marriage that they don't agree with -- like previously divorced people or people that don't go to their counseling sessions or who don't want the word obey in the ceremony or whatever.

But he shouldn't try to limit other people's rights. Nonreligious people and people who can't physically bear children have the right to be married. Churches who do sanction same sex marriage (many Episcopal branches, Unitarians, Reform Jews, etc.) shouldn't be stopped from doing so. That infringes on their religious freedom.

He shouldn't be using his religion to make law, and anyway, it is petty and mean to deny others the right to do something that will not affect him, his marriage or his relationship with god at all.

-------
None of that will actually work, because you can't reason away bigotry. I don't think it really worked on my mother, for example, but it did at least make her pretend to my face that she wasn't against marriage equality anymore.

[pinto]

20. Well said.

[SoutherDem]

7. I don't know how much time you want to devote to the Bible

But, there is a book written by Tom Horner, called Jonathan and David published by Westminster Press which takes each and every passage which is used by those who say homosexuality is a sin. Then breaks them down and shows how they are being misused, or mistranslated.

Yes, it does say that. But Leviticus is full of Jewish laws which include eating pork and among others. The vast majority of Jewish laws are dismissed by Christians, they hold on to just a handful.

I would say 100% of Christians who do not follow or could follow Jewish law. Using the same Bible would also condemn them to hell also. When challenged they tell how Christ came to fulfill the law and do away with it, except for that handful they like.

I have a Jewish friend who has tried to explain the way Jewish law works and I do not understand but long story short he is gay and does not feel he is doing anything wrong. In other words Christians who don't study Jewish law feels gay is bad, many if not most Jews who do study Jewish law does not feel gay is bad.

[babylonsister]

10. Thank you for writing that out. I know how "I" feel,

but there is no religion in my life. I guess I'm trying to understand the ignorance from a supposedly smart person otherwise. It's all about perspectives and influences.

[Plantaganet]

11. Don't waste your time!

Religion is the ultimate safe haven for the homophobic. No point in trying to educate them.

[Prism]

14. soulforce.org

They're a great resource.

http://www.soulforce.org/resources/what-the-bible-says-and-doesnt-say-about-homosexuality/

[babylonsister]

15. Heh. I love DU; just forwarded this to my friend. Thank you! nt

[Rowdyboy]

17. I only skimmed the link and I intend to come back tomorrow and read in depth

It looks seriously good. Looks like you have what you need...

[Prism]

22. Soulforce was a lifeline for me

I grew up in a stereotypical socially conservative Irish Catholic family. When I was coming out, I used to read what Soulforce posted all the time so I was fortified when the moment came with my parents. Very, very helpful people there.

[Prism]

23. Any time. There's another article

I can't seem to find it now. It used to be entitled "Six Bible Passages," and it covered all the different translations from the original Greek and Latin and how the King James version is a severe out of context mistranslation in some places.

If I can find the time to rummage it up, I'll post it here.

Thanks for engaging your friend!

[johnnypneumatic]

16. ask him to explain why king David had 700 wives

if one man one woman marriage is so important, why did kind David have 700 wives and 300 concubines, and that is all ok
seems marriage has been "redefined" a great many times...

Then ask him about Leviticus 20:13
The NIV version, which is a more modern translation than the KJV, says:
‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Ask him if he really believes all gay men deserve to die. Ask him if he wants to kill you or me.
Because, in effect, the bible is a death threat and an incitement to violence.

Or, might it be perhaps, that the bible was written by primitive psychopaths and should be regarded the same way as ancient "knowledge" such as the earth is flat and if you sail too far you will fall of the edge?


the King James bible was based on the Textus Receptus, one of the first greek bibles converted into printed text. Unfortunately, it was based on about the worst possible source, a version that had been copied (miscopied and creatively edited) over and over for a thousand years, with many thousands of errors when compared to earlier manuscripts. Then it was "translated" into old English.

[foo_bar]

18. there's another theory on Lev 20:13

The translations of this verse found in most English Bibles cannot be supported by the Hebrew text.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (KJV)

Correct translation:

And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman's bed, both of them have made an abomination. Dying they will be put to death; their blood is on them.

http://hoperemains.webs.com/leviticus2013.htm

I'm not a scholar of ancient Hebrew (or anything else), and I always thought "as he lieth with a woman" meant no threesomes, but I can't say either translation makes less sense: either the Lord is against same-sex spooning, or it's one of those weird technicalities like not seething a goat in his mother's milk, and the message is "Let not the spunk of another man brusheth the bedchamber linens of thine wife", which would make sense since God is very OCD about these kinds of things, as in "Do not plant your field with two different kinds of seed" (Leviticus 19:19).

[dickthegrouch]

21. "meant no threesomes" roflmao

I had to re-read that three times before I understood how you made that leap. Outstanding!!!! You made my year

[johnnypneumatic]

26. sorry, it was his son King Solomon who had 700 wives

although King David started it by marrying many princesses of other groups to solidify alliances

[Bohunk68]

24. There are some

really strange things that should be understood about Leviticus. First, it doesn't appear in Jewish history until the time when all the temples were being consolidated into one temple in Jerusalem. The joke amongst many scholars is that one day as they were destroying a temple, they came upon this other book written by Moishe and exclaimed, "Look, another book by Moishe, and, miracle of miracles, the ink isn't dry!" Leviticus is best understood as being a book written to prescribe the behavior expected of priests and not to apply to the general public. Remember, it also says that a priest has to be perfect in body. Which would eliminate anyone with an infirmity, such as poor eyesight, or walking with the aid of an implement. Authorship by Moses is highly doubtful.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. Leviticus endorses and codifies Slavery. Calls a ham and cheese sandwich an abomination.

You do the math.