Sifting? When and why did we stop?

[cbayer]

When I was a kid, we sifted everything.




Not just flour, but recipes always said to put in all the dry ingredients and sift them together.

If I recall correctly, sometimes you even were instructed to sift things twice.


But no more. No recipe that I have read in years calls for sifting.

And I don't think I have ever owned one.

What changed?

[Fridays Child]

1. I've had the same sifter for nearly forty years.

I use it for exactly one recipe.

[cbayer]

9. What do you use it for?

[Fridays Child]

50. Banana Chocolate Chunk Cake

[Warpy]

2. I only did it to combine dry ingredients

I really never found it all that necessary unless it was a fussy cake recipe that instructed sifting before measuring.

[cbayer]

10. Do you still use it to combine dry ingredients?

[Warpy]

31. I'm not doing much baking since wheat's off the menu

but if I were, yes. Tumbling it in a sifter seems to mix things a bit more evenly than just throwing everything into a bowl and stirring.

[cbayer]

35. I think I may be too lazy to be a baker.

I made some cookies this week. They were pretty good, but not spectacular.

When I considered the cost of the ingredients and the time it took to make them, it occurred to me that I could have bought better freshly made cookies for less.

I rarely if ever think that for the things I "cook".

[MyNameGoesHere]

3. Well because we don't have many stone ground brands anymore

and almost every kitchen can afford a decent digital scale. I remember back when I was learning to bake with grandma we sifted all the time, and more times than not would find rocks or such in the flour from the mill stones.

[cbayer]

11. Ok, it was to get out rock. That makes sense., but

I don't understand what the digital scale is for (I don't have one).

[MyNameGoesHere]

16. Weighing flour is a better way of cooking

before the digital scale weighing dry goods was cumbersome and costly. Flour tends to compact and a cup isn't really a cup, but if you weigh it, a pound is always a pound. Now a nice digital scale is a 10 dollar investment.

[cbayer]

17. You mean you weigh it instead of using volume?

How do you convert? I don't think I have ever seen a recipe where dry ingredients like flour are given in weight.

[MyNameGoesHere]

18. Lol wait until i finish my edit :)

yes.

[MyNameGoesHere]

19. Yes there are several 100's of thousand conversion sites and apps probably

http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/flour_volume_weight.html

[cbayer]

20. I have seriously never heard of this.

I just dump my measuring cup in my big old flour container and take out what I need.

Perhaps that explains my rather "uneven" results at baking.

[pscot]

22. Bakers like to weigh stuff

because it gives a more predictable result. When they talk about a 60% bread dough or a 70% dough they're necessarily using weight rather than volume.

[Major Nikon]

49. It's far easier and better to measure by weight

The proper way to measure flour by volume is to sift the flour directly into the measure and rake off the excess taking care not to compact the flour and making sure there are no voids in the measure. Using this method you'll get a cup of flour that weighs about 4 1/4 oz, but even doing it this way you'll get some variance. If you just scoop the flour out of the bag it gets compacted and you can easily wind up with a cup of flour that weighs well over 5 oz which is a huge difference and will throw off the hydration level of most any bread recipe. Measuring flour by weight yields far more consistent results and is easier to do.

Depending on the milling, there is some small variance between what weight constitutes a cup. Some flour manufacturers will list their standard cup weights on their web site or you can look at the nutrition label. King Arthur's a/p flour lists a 1/4 cup serving size as 30g. 30g * 4 = 120g = 4.23oz

[kentauros]

4. It sounds like what changed was cooks trying to do baking

without understanding the reasons for sifting. It's not for removing particles that didn't grind well enough or whatever else might be in your flour. It's primary purpose is to aerate the flour so it mixes better.

Here's one reason why I have always loved Rose Levy Beranbaum as a writer of baking cookbooks (she's a former food scientist.) The following is from my 1988 copy of "The Cake Bible":

Sifter
The primary reason flour is sifted is to separate and aerate the flour particles, enabling them to mix more uniformly with the liquid. It does not do an adequate job of mixing dry ingredients; this is better accomplished in the mixer or even by stirring with a fork.

I am not an advocate of the triple sifter because, if I have already weighed the flour, I am never certain how much gets lost in the labyrinth of the sifter. When making genoise, for example, I sift the flour before mixing the batter so that it will be ready to add at the right moment. Then I sift a second time onto the batter. I prefer an electric sifter because it only has one mesh strainer and is very fast. A strainer works well too with a tablespoon to press the flour through it.

So, yes, I use my sifter every time I bake anything with flour
(And I have an 8-cup sifter just like you have pictured.)

[cbayer]

12. Do you measure the flour before you sift it or after?

[kentauros]

23. Well, if you know the weight of your particular flour per cup,

then you weigh it first, and then sift

[cbayer]

25. Is that information available for different flours?

I have never weighed flour, so this is much more complicated that I had originally imagined.

[kentauros]

26. The link that MyNameGoesHere gave has that info.

I have professional baking books here that have that as well, but the online converter is good enough and possibly faster, unless you print out a guide sheet for your kitchen.

The converter doesn't seem to want to work for me in two different browsers, but the measure charts are good enough to make the multiplications yourself

[MyNameGoesHere]

21. That is one theory

I tend to believe my eyes, and back in the day, 40 years ago or more, the PRIMARY purpose was to get unwanted materials and clumps out. Light and fluffy possibly. THough I doubt it made much of a difference. The flour itself lends more to that factor.

[kentauros]

24. I gave the reasoning of a food scientist

that became an award winning baker. I'll go with her reasons for sifting, because I've also seen the results of it in my home kitchen versus making the same kind of cakes (genoise) in large quantities without sifting in a restaurant

[MyNameGoesHere]

30. The question was why we stopped.

I gave the most logical and fact filled. WHeat is rarely ground by stone anymore. Now judging the fluffiness and divine lightness of something is very much arbitrary and I am thinking that 10 random people testing sifted vs. unsifted would not know the difference.
I am surprised the food scientist didn't mention the early way flour was processed as one of the reasons flour was always sifted.

[kentauros]

32. And I answered for one of the major reasons why people stopped sifting.

Because they don't understand how the flour works in the recipe or how it mixes together with the other ingredients. Beranbaum explained all that, and quite logically and fact-filled as well. Sifted flour mixes with the liquids in the recipe better than simply dumping it in. Mentioning why people sifted in the past isn't part of the science of how the ingredients go together.

[Le Taz Hot]

51. " It's primary purpose is to aerate the flour so it mixes better. "

I was just going to say this. I'm glad I checked down thread. It's the difference between my biscuits being leaden disks or light, fluffy morsels.

[kentauros]

52. The thing is, I can't remember ever using a sifter when I worked in bakeries.

Unless it's a small batch of something. One thing that can be done when using tens of pounds of flour (or even home-baking amounts) is to whisk the flour and other dry ingredients in the bowl for a couple of minutes, and aerate that way

[grasswire]

5. I sift.

For cakes and for some cookies.

But I don't usually use my old sifter like the one above. I use a sieve, and tap it with a spoon to pass the flour or powdered sugar through.

[cbayer]

13. That's what got me thinking about this.

I made some wedding cookies the other day and wanted to sift confex sugar over them. It was then I remembered using a sifter in the past to do this and wondered what had changed.

[eShirl]

6. WHAT? You're kidding right?

Unless you're given the flour measurement BY WEIGHT you are supposed to sift. Not only to aerate, but to get the correct amount. It's one of those things that's considered so basic to baking that it doesn't need to be spelled out. Like discarding the shell when the recipe calls for eggs.

[cbayer]

14. No, I'm not kidding and I never sift.

When I was young, recipes said specifically to do it, but I haven't seen that in a recipe for years. Not any recipe anywhere.

So you sift then measure?

[grasswire]

37. you are correct.

And please note that there is a difference between:

1 cup sifted flour

and

1 cup flour, sifted.

A difference in weight and volume.

[intheflow]

7. My grandmother told me she sifted to make sure the bugs were out.

Last edited Tue Jan 21, 2014, 11:54 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't bake so can't comment on the other reasons given in this thread, but for Grandma, growing up in the rural mid-west in the early part of the 20th century, it was all about making sure whatever bugs lived in the flour bin didn't add extra protein to their breads and cakes. Apparently, she wasn't the only one sifting for this reason: http://practical-parsimony.blogspot.com/2012/10/great-depression-solution-weevils-in.html

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

8. Remember always to choose the lesser of two weevils

[msanthrope]

46. I love that movie. nt

[cbayer]

15. That makes sense to me as well and would explain why we don't really do it anymore.

[northoftheborder]

27. I also had noticed the sifting step left out of contemporary recipes.

I was taught in Home Ec. that sifting was necessary (before measuring) to obtain the correct amount for cakes, and breads, especially, because the correct proportions of dry to liquid, etc. is essential for the desired result. It's not as crucial in pie dough, cookies. There is a different measure for a cup of flour dipped directly out of the flour bin, and after you sift that flour. Of course, measuring by weight is the easiest, although the above discussion of needing to sift again to aerate the flour for better mixing into the other ingredients is also needed, which I didn't realize was necessary.

I don't know why they are leaving out the "sifted" adjective in the ingredient list. And not many recipes printed in this country use weight measure. That is regrettable, because I don't think they even teach home ec. in school any more. In the "olden days" everybody in my junior high had to take both basic home economics AND shop (boys and girls). I loved both!

[cbayer]

28. That mirrors my experience exactly.

And I remember what a PITA is was to try to sift into a measuring cup.

I wish I had had the opportunity to take shop, but we weren't permitted (and boys weren't permitted to take home ec).

But I am very thankful for my time in home ec.

And typing classes. As it turns out, that was probably THE most important thing I was taught in high school.

[kentauros]

29. I second the need for vocation and home ec classes!

I never took home ec because it was an unspoken rule that only the girls took it, and that was because it was mostly "wife training" with a major focus on cooking and daycare. All I wanted to learn was the cooking, sewing, and other "domestic chores" that the "men" would never do. Unless they became famous professional chefs later in life. I have to wonder how many men these days lament not having the opportunity to learn good cooking techniques outside of the home...

Now, as far as making sifting into a measuring cup easier, here's how I do it:

Lay out a sheet of parchment paper (coated in silicone or not.)
Place the measuring cup in the middle.
Fill your sifter.
Sift over the measuring cup.
Level off with a knife or chopstick (I use the latter to avoid accidents.)
Use measured flour.
Pick up parchment and dump back into flour container.

[cbayer]

33. My home ec classes taught me cooking basics

and sewing, which is something I am really happy to have.

But I'm terrible with tools in general and power tools scare me. I would have loved shop.

Nice method for the sifting. I'm still on the fence as to whether I am going to start sifting or not.

My no-knead bread comes out perfectly every time and my storage space is extremely limited.

I'm even on the fence about a rolling pin, but now that I am experimenting with empanadas, I really should get one.

[kentauros]

34. Somewhere I have your standard rolling pin

with the handles. Yeah, I don't remember where it is at all now. But, I have another rolling pin that I love. It's really just a straight dowel of some typical kitchen wood (probably birch), with slightly rounded ends and nothing else. There are similar pins that are tapered from the middle, but I don't know enough about how those are used to consider buying one. The straight dowel kind is easy to use and control, and long enough to cover the length of my bread board (a decent-sized plank of oiled cypress.)

One thing the no-knead bread irks me is how the gluten still doesn't seem as developed as it is if I knead it. I have the Artisan in 5 Minutes book, but the texture always seems to be rather gummy once it cools. My kneaded bread was rarely like that. Maybe I need to try the other recipes besides the basic one and see if the addition of oils or other ingredients helps.

Have you noticed a gumminess to the texture of those no-knead breads?

[cbayer]

36. Great idea about the dowel.

I could get and store one pretty easily.

My no-knead bread comes out pretty perfectly, imo. It has a crunchy/chewy crust with a very light and delicious inside part.

The trick, I think, is in the cooking times and temperatures. After some experimentation, I have found the combination that works for me.

[grasswire]

38. oh I love my vintage rolling pins

I have five of them, some with red handles, some with green handles and one with no paint that was my grandmothers. They roll so GREAT with whatever mechanism is inside -- ball bearings? I also have a large heavy marble rolling pin but don't use that much. And I used to have a tupperware rolling pin that could be filled with ice water. Heh.

I have built-in bookcases next to my kitchen with cookbook collection, many vintage table linens, rolling pins and many wooden mixing bowls, and jars of pickles and jams from summer. This domesticity makes me really happy. I'm almost out of pickles!!

Do cucumbers grow down there this time of year?

[cbayer]

40. I bet they are beautiful.

No room for collections of any kind on the boat, unless it is really small things.

I bet your bookcases are wonderful and lots of fun.

I rarely see cucumbers in the stores. In Baja, it is basically a desert climate, so things requiring a lot of water tend to be sparse.

Much as I love the boat, I look forward to a day in the future when we have a small place on land and I can garden again.

[kentauros]

39. You could probably just go to a lumber yard

and get a 2" thick dowel. Mine is shorter than I remembered, at 19.5" by 1.75". I assume by lumber shrinkage standards, that's a 2x20 dowel. It's heavier than perhaps birch, but I don't think it's oak. The rounding is about a quarter-inch on the edges, yet leaves a good portion of the ends flat, like about an inch. I don't know if it was unfinished or just oiled, because I've had it so long. If you know how to work with wood, I'm sure you'll figure out what to do. Or just look for one online

Even though I have an apartment electric range and oven (with a loose oven temp knob, no less!) my digital thermometer says I'm within a few degrees when I think I'm on the right temp. I can't get any more accurate than that. I also don't use the steam bath as much. I haven't noticed a difference in the crumb whether I used it or not.

It could be that it's just too wet of a dough, and I'll have to start experimenting with less liquid. That might also mean it will have to proof for a longer period than the original two hours. It's still "new" to me, and I continue to find it difficult not to knead. That's ingrained in me!

[cbayer]

41. That's what I am thinking.

I have been using wine bottles, but, as I am sure you know, they don't work well at all.

I don't use a steam bath at all. 30 minutes in the preheated dutch oven with lid on , then 15 minutes with lid off.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same recipe, though.

This is the one I use:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html?_r=0

[kentauros]

42. That's a rather different recipe.

It looks good, though! The 14-20 hour rise makes me think that it's also souring just a little.

Here's a link for the master recipe of the Artisan in 5 Minutes dough, with photos:

http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/2010/02/09/back-to-basics-tips-and-techniques-to-create-a-great-loaf-in-5-minutes-a-day

Oh, and I found a FAQ page that explains why I might be getting too dense of a crumb. And it comes down to water content and flour quality.

http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/2008/02/10/qa-dense-crumb

[cbayer]

43. If you try the NYT's one, let me know what you think.

I have been so happy with this that I haven't moved on to the Artisan in 6 dough, but I probably should try it.

The one drawback with the NYT bread is the inability to add anything to it (like cheese or even whole wheat flour).

[kentauros]

44. Maybe I'll try it tonight or this afternoon, so it has time to rest

As for adding other ingredients, I noticed from your link that under "Related Recipes" there's a whole wheat version that only rests for four hours.

And I'd add other ingredients (just not dairy) in the mixing. The resting part is simply to proof the yeast and align the gluten strands. I don't see how any flavoring ingredients would interfere with that. Or have you tried and it didn't work?

[cbayer]

45. I tried whole wheat - disaster.

Others have told me you can't add other ingredients, but I haven't tried.

Look forward to what you think.

[kentauros]

48. First, I'll try it without adding anything.

And if I like it enough, I'll try it with something added that won't spoil during the rising. It just doesn't make sense to my knowledge of how dough works that adding a flavoring to the mix in the beginning would not work in the final product.

I do know that there are recipes in the Artisan book that call for adding your flavorings to the dough. Maybe I'll read those to see exactly how they do it before attempting it with the NYT's version.

And I just received a big book on baking from the Cook's Illustrated store today. I'll have a look to see if they have anything on this technique, too

Oh, in the baking book The Tassajara Bread Book, Edward Brown has recipes for unyeasted wheat breads. A quick glance at them shows that he used the same technique of letting the dough rise for 12-24 hours first, then a shaping and forming into a loaf and another rise of 4 hours. The first time I tried that, the second rise overflowed the loaf pan! And the resulting bread was too dense to eat. I have not tried it since, so it might be worth looking at them again, and doing some comparisons.

[msanthrope]

47. No sifting, no "creaming" either. Lost skills. nt

[dem in texas]

53. When you sift, you sift the flour, baking powder or baking soda and salt together

That gets them mixed up. If the baking powder is not mixed well, it will make brown specks in what ever you are making, it does have any effect on taste, but its there. If I am going to go through all the trouble to make a "scratch cake" I want it to look good, so I sift. That said, good old Betty Crocker sure comes in handy.

I have been making Betty Crocker white cake. I follow the box instructions except I decrease the oil and add some softened butter. Add a teaspoon vanilla and a teaspoon almond extract. I bake it in a buttered sheet cake pan.

Then I make rich frosting. 2/3 stick of butter, 1 8oz package cream cheese, 4 cups powdered sugar, 2 teaspoon vanilla, 1/2 teaspoon salt. Thin with cream or Mexican crema, 2 or 3 tablespoons. I use my mixer and beat until it is smooth and creamy. Spread on cooled cake.

Take about 2 or 3 cups coconut and put on chopping board and chop it till is finely chopped. Sprinkle on the cake so the frosting is heavily covered.

The cake tastes like an Italian Cream cake, without all the work. The cream cheese and crema put a little tang in the frosting. Everyone loves this cake.

[FarPoint]

54. I sift my flour and dry ingredients together...

I frequently use a fine strainer and tap the flour thru the mesh and into a mixing bowl. I also bought a hand held shifter...old school style...from E-Bay. I think sifting four adds love to the recipe.