NRA Gun Safety Research Restrictions Prevent Violence Solutions, Scientists Tell Biden

[jpak]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/10/nra-gun-safety_n_2449591.html

SAN FRANCISCO, Jan 10 (Reuters) - Research restrictions pushed by the National Rifle Association have stopped the United States from finding solutions to firearms violence, more than a hundred scientists from virtually every major U.S. university told Vice President Joe Biden's task force on gun violence in a letter on Thursday.

In the wake of the December school massacre in Newtown, Connecticut, and other mass homicides, the group of economists, health researchers, educators, doctors and criminologists said funding should be restored to a range of study areas, from gun safety to tracking illegal guns.

President Barack Obama has asked Biden to head a task force to come up with gun policy proposals, and Biden was to meet with NRA representatives on Thursday. He said the task force will have recommendations ready for the president by Tuesday.

"While mortality rates from almost every major cause of death declined dramatically over the past half century, the homicide rate in America today is almost exactly the same as it was in 1950," the academics wrote in a letter organized by scholars at the University of Chicago Crime Lab research center.

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More gun nut douchebaggery from the NRA

yup

[Skyline]

1. This is why.

Quotes like this.

""While mortality rates from almost every major cause of death declined dramatically over the past half century, the homicide rate in America today is almost exactly the same as it was in 1950," the academics wrote in a letter organized by scholars at the University of Chicago Crime Lab research center."

Are true but have been made to be a bad thing.

Violence is around the same levels it was in the 50's which is also down from the 90's. so while the quote is true they made it into a bad thing.

Violence has been on the decline for the last 20 years, and has been declining since the sunset of the AWB in 2004 despite the fact that there are now 300,000,000 firearms and 80,000,000 gun owners in the USA today, yet violence is at the lowest it has been since the late 50's.

This should not be misrepresented as a bad thing like the Chicago crime lab is doing.

I will also add Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the USA but also leads the USA in violence.

[jpak]

2. Strict uniform federal guns laws - with felony penalties - will fix all that

The Backlash is HERE

yup

[Clames]

5. Just like they fixed drugs?

The Backlash is nothing but a parade of ignorance.


Yup.

[jpak]

6. Do it and we'll find out - one way or the other

yup

[Clames]

7. Tried in 1994.

Had 10 years to make it work. Nothing but failure. Some people just like repeating their mistakes no matter what though. Einstein was right about such folks.


yup.

[Skyline]

8. It also cost us everything.

The AWB did nothig to stop crime, and once its sunset came gun sales skyrocketed and crime continued to decline. At the same time the Democrats lost everything because of it, that is something I do not want to see repeated.

[jpak]

9. Not comprehensive and not responsible for 1994

yup

[Clames]

10. Those who created the legislation said it would work.

They promised. They failed.




yup

[jpak]

11. It did - but NRA Douchebag George W. Bush and the asshole GOP repealed it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172102131

yup

[Clames]

12. Still would be a failure with 10 more years.

Even 100 more years. That's all it did was fail.




yup

[jpak]

15. When at first you don't succeed...

Try Try Again

yup

[Clames]

17. Which proves Einstein was right.

And Forest Gump too when it comes down to it.



Yup...

[gejohnston]

13. he said he would sign it

did he put the sunset provision in?

[jpak]

14. Yeah and he said Iraq had WMD

[GreenStormCloud]

19. Wrong.

It wasn't repealed. It sunsetted. Both political parties ran away from it in 2004.

[DanTex]

22. Yes, it is a bad thing that the rates of gun deaths in the US exceed the rest of the developed

world by a factor of 10. Yes, it is a bad thing that we've been able to reduce most major causes of death dramatically, but gun violence rates are still sky-high.

There's a reason why scientists and ignorant gun nuts are on opposite sides of the gun debate, and why the NRA wants to suppress research into gun violence. And it's not "anti-gun bias", except in the sense that reality has a liberal bias.

And by the way, Chicago does not lead the nation in gun violence. That would be New Orleans.


Ya know, these NRA talking points are so familiar, it almost seems to me that you've posted them here before...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

3. the NRA tells lies. It is all a big lie. I know because I read it on the internet.

[jpak]

4. I think I am falling in love

[CokeMachine]

36. Bonjour !!

Love that commercial.

[spin]

16. Ignored is the fact that returning to a homicide rate the same as 1950 ...

is a LARGE improvement.

I grew up in the 50s and 60s. We never locked our doors and often left the keys in our car. Admittedly I grew up in a fairly rural area of Ohio. There were drugs and far more crime in the large urban areas but it was significantly lower than the crime rate was in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Crime in the United States

Crime statistics for the United States are published annually by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the Uniform Crime Reports which represents crimes reported to the police. The Bureau of Justice Statistics conducts the annual National Crime Victimization Survey which captures crimes not reported to the police.

***snip***

Crime over time

Crime has been a long-standing concern in the United States, with high rates at the beginning of the 20th century compared to parts of Western Europe. In 1916, 198 homicides were recorded in Chicago, a city of slightly over 2 million at the time. This level of crime was not exceptional when compared to other American cities such as New York City, but was much higher relative to European cities, such as London, which then had three times the population but recorded only 45 homicides in the same year.[6]

In the long term, homicide in America has been in decline since colonial times.[7]
As shown in the charts above, reported violent crime nationwide nearly quadrupled between 1960 and its peak in 1991. Property crime more than doubled over the same period. Since 1993, crime has declined steeply. Several theories have been proposed to explain the cause.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

But I feel we can do much better. A high percentage of the violence in our nation is due to our failed war on drugs. Chicago is a prime example as a high percentage of gun violence there is due to turf warfare between completing drug gangs. Perhaps we should consider the legalization of some drugs in order to take some of the profit out of the smuggling and distribution.

Our mental health system also needs to be examined. Most shooters who have committed massacres have waved numerous red flags before they ran amok.

Both sides of the gun control issue claim that violent crime is epidemic in our nation. Gun manufacturers try to convince people that a firearm is necessary for protection against home invaders and street thugs in order to increase the sales of the items they produce. Gun control groups all too often portray gun owners as largely fearful paranoid people or bloodthirsty vigilantes looking for an opportunity to kill someone and use the Zimmerman shooting of Trayvon Martin as an example.

Both sides are exaggerating facts for their agenda. We don't really have an epidemic of violent crime but it does exist. 99.99 percent of firearm owners use their weapons responsibly and are not a threat to our society.

I feel that in order to reduce gun violence in our nation it is necessary to first debate the issue in a polite and honest manner. If we do so we might be able to make a true difference.

Trying to convince people that they absolutely need a firearm for self defense or that they need to ban certain or all firearms will accomplish little or nothing. All we will do is yell at each other and throw insults. Ten years from now we will still be doing the exact same thing.

Let's all try to be responsible and respectful toward each other. If we do so we make some true headway in making this a much safer nation than it was even in the 60s. Both sides of the issue can find common ground and pass legislation that will make a true difference.

As long as we have firearms in our nation we will have some tragedies that result. Unfortunately any attempt to remove all firearms from civilian possession will fail in a society such as ours that has 80,000,000 gun owners and 300,000,000 firearms and a strong gun culture. Any attempt to remove certain classes of firearms will cause gun owners to fear that it would merely be a first step to total confiscation.

Gun owners have a vested interest in protecting their investment and their hobby but they also realize the gun violence is a serious threat.

I personally feel both sides can find compromise if the gun rights supporters resist any truly reasonable ideas and the anti-gun forces give up on the idea of turning us into the UK with their draconian gun laws.

[jimmy the one]

18. skyline's propaganda

skyline: Violence has been on the decline for the last 20 years, and has been declining since the sunset of the AWB in 2004

Skyline spews pro gun rightwing propaganda, misleading; fact>> violent crime rates decreased almost every year the assault weapons ban was in effect, from 1994 thru 2004 violent crime rates & murder rates DECLINED under the assault weapons ban, a steady decrease throughout.

despite the fact that there are now 300,000,000 firearms and 80,000,000 gun owners in the USA today, yet violence is at the lowest it has been since the late 50's.

duh, skyline leaves out the part where violent crime & murder INCREASED from the mid 1960s to early 1990's, the same time period where national gunstock DOUBLED to tripled, from about 75 million guns to maybe 225 million in early 90's. So guns tripled & crime rates rose to record highs, but skyline cherry picks 1991 thru 2012 where gunstock increased by 30% and attributes declining crime & murder rates to guns. ANYONE SEE THE SERIOUS FLAW IN THIS MAN'S REASONING????
Skyline is an obvious happy clappy adherent to the 2nd Amendment MYTHOLOGY.

skyline: I will also add Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the USA but also leads the USA in violence.

No it doesn't lead in violence, Detroit with shall issue ccw does, with St Louis with shall issue ccw close behind. Chicago is back in the pack about 20th after these two pro gun states. Grow up skyline, stop spewing rightwing propaganda, it's called LYING.

Compare pro gun Memphis Tennessee with chicago:
2010 Crime Rate Memphis,TN ..... Chicago,IL
Total Crime Risk.. 364.............. 238
Murder Risk .......361.............. 356
Rape Risk..........342.............. 260
Robbery Risk...... 522.............. 465
Assault Risk...... 286.............. 289
Burglary Risk..... 366.............. 122
Larceny Risk...... 205.............. 133
MotVeh TheftRisk.. 374.............. 212
http://www.clrsearch.com/Kennesaw-Demographics/Ga/Crime-Rate

[bubbayugga]

20. Detroit, St Louis, and Chicago all have something in common when it comes to those murder rates

they're all good old boy Republican strongholds, except for Chicago of course.

[Skyline]

21. How adorable

I was taking numbers from the country as a whole, and as a whole crime has been declining for the last 20 years.

I got my info from the FBI but I am sure you will just tell me its fake or something since it does not fit your agenda.

Hmmm from january-june 2012 there was 240 murders alone in chicago, yep seems safe to me.
[link:http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120626/chicago-homicide-rate-up-38-percent|

You say I make stuff up? I say you do.
Ill add what I posted in another thread.

1968 13,000 murders
1994(AWB date) 23,000 murders
2004(AWB ends) 16,000 murders
2011(more guns in USA than ever) 14,600 murders.

So yes gun violence dropped from 1994-2004 bu not because of gun control. If the AWB is what caused the drop then the sunsetting of it and the increase in firearms would have murder on the rise, it does not and it is still declining.

Although you keep living in your bubble while the murder rate in chicago is up 25% for 2012 from 2011.

[jody]

23. The topic was discussed in Post #10 on 24 Dec 2012 of DU link below

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=97122

Sounds like some group has a disinformation effort in full swing.

[DanTex]

24. "Some group" = "more than a hundred scientists from virtually every major U.S. university".

[jody]

27. The group were "economists, health researchers, educators, doctors and criminologists". A scientist

opinion from that group is acceptable as an "expert" only if she/he has a string of research reports she/he directed and published in referred journals, and accepted by the appropriate community on the topic of gun type/number causing crime.

Given that no research to date has found a link between gun type or number and crime, then it's highly unlikely an expert is among that 100.

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=97122

[DanTex]

28. LOL. "no research to date has found a link between gun type or number and crime".

I gotta say, I'm used to seeing people make stuff up in here, but sometimes I wonder if it is possible to be a pro-gunner and have any regard at all for the truth!

http://home.uchicago.edu/~ludwigj/papers/JPubE_guns_2006FINAL.pdf
http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/dranove/htm/Dranove/coursepages/Mgmt%20469/guns.pdf
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/

Of course, even if you don't accept the peer-reviewed studies linking gun ownership and homicide (I know, I know, science has an "anti-gun bias&quot , there is still no justification for stifling research into gun violence. In fact, that report you keep linking to precisely calls for more research in this area, not less -- exactly the opposite of what the NRA has been doing, which is stifling the research by getting the GOP to withhold funds and data.

[jody]

29. DanTex Task Force on Community Preventive Services and National Research council of the National

Academy of Sciences reviewed all credible research and found none that supported the claim of gun-creationists that guns create crime.

Either one accepts science or faith, your choice.

[DanTex]

31. Wrong. Your claim that no research has found a link between guns and crime is a flat lie.

And you are also wring about what the NRC said. It said that the research is not sufficient to conclusively determine the effectiveness of gun-control policies. For example, it found that research on "shall-issue" laws didn't conclusively prove that increased or decreased crime. That's because there are a lot of factors, and it is hard to isolate the effect of individual policies amid all the noise.

But saying that we don't have conclusive empirical research about the effects of certain gun policies is not at all the same thing as saying there is no research linking guns to homicide rates. If you read the report, it often says thing like that the research is "suggestive, but not conclusive", and suggests further research to back up initial findings. Given the politically-charged atmosphere that surrounded that report, it is not surprising that the conclusions it drew were cautious.

Sorry, it is you against the peer-reviewed science here. For example, all of those studies that I linked to above (some of which were published after 2003, and thus were not covered by the 2003 NRC Panel). And most importantly the NRC recommended that further research be done, which is exactly what the NRA is blocking. Is this really so complicated?

[jody]

33. DanTex I acknowledge your faith. Have a great day. nt

[DanTex]

34. And I acknowledge your ignorance and denialism.

[Lizzie Poppet]

25. The "gun safety" component of that makes zero sense.

Firearms-related deaths and injuries are overwhelmingly the result of criminal activity, not accidents. If anything, gun safety has improved over time, with the rate of accidental deaths by firearms steadily decreasing for many decades. Accidental death by firearm is a very minor player in overall accidental death rates:



I certainly oppose efforts to limit criminological research, but claiming that there's been opposition to gun safety research seems dubious.

[DanTex]

26. Umm, yes, there has been opposition to gun safety research.

First of all, gun safety doesn't just include accidents. For example, keeping a gun in a home with children increases the chances that a child in the home commits suicide. That is certainly a safety issue. Also, the fact that guns in the home increase, rather than decrease, the likelihood that someone in the home will be the victim of a firearm homicide is a safety issue -- people buy guns because they think it will make them more safe, but they end up being less safe.

The NRA is basically opposed to any research that might reveal truths that are politically inconvenient.

[Skyline]

30. Everyone in my family

Was raised with guns and no one has ever had to use them outside of service to this country and no one has ever commited suicide.

Then again we are taught young how to properly use and handle a firearm.

[DanTex]

32. That's fascinating. Do you have any comment about the peer-reviewed research?

[rbixby]

35. I think the intent here wasn't to talk about AWB

But the fact that the NRA is essentially preventing any studies about guns, ammunition, and their relationship to anything, from happening. If guns are are so great and infallible, why not let some studies prove it?

That's kind of the intent of this article, before it got hijacked by the same old argument.