Assault weapons questions

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

Charles Whitman packed up a sawed off 12-gauge shotgun, a Remington 700 6mm bolt-action hunting rifle, a .35 caliber pump rifle, a .30 caliber carbine, a 9mm Luger pistol, a Galesi-Brescia .25-caliber pistol and a Smith & Wesson M19 .357 Magnum revolver, and over 700 rounds of ammunition, along with food, coffee, vitamins, Dexedrine, Excedrin, earplugs, jugs of water, matches, lighter fluid, rope, binoculars, a machete, three knives, a transistor radio, toilet paper, a razor and a bottle of deodorant, then headed to the tower about 11:00 AM on August 1st 1966.

Today some folks want to make weapons like that Universal carbine illegal. Would that have stopped Whitman?

It's already illegal to shorten a shotgun barrel to less than a prescribed length but we still sell shotguns and saws. As far as I can tell only the carbine with mags over 10 rounds would be outlawed by an "Assault Weapons Ban".

There were 16 killed (including Whitman's family members stabbed the night before) and 32 injured. At the time the country's response was rather universal. Police and sheriff's departments all over began forming SWAT Teams. I believe that was a wise decision.

Harris and Klebold had a TEC-9 during the last AWB. The TEC-9 was an "assault weapon". Did the AWB affect the shooters in any way?

At Virginia Tech that crazy nut shot 50 people including himself and killed 33. He used pistols which wouldn't be banned. What would an "Assault Weapons Ban" have changed?

[friendly_iconoclast]

1. Awkward questions, which you will be attacked for asking...

...because GUNS!1!!...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

3. re: "...you will be attacked for asking..."

Not to worry, I'm a tough old bird, at least according to my wife.

[ileus]

2. as you well know....it's just a start...once proven ineffective that's

when the real action will take place...


Give an inch they'll take a mile.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

5. What did Einstein say...

...about repeating behavior and expecting different results?

[upaloopa]

4. That's called begging the answer or something

isn't it? You set up a premise and ask people to shoot it down.
The idea behind an assault weapons ban is to try and slow the increase in gun violence not prevent all gun violence.
We have tons of laws that do not prevent every event that they were written to prevent but we don't just do nothing because we can't do everything.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

7. I like that answer!

So if "...we don't just do nothing because we can't do everything." we do something, how do we know what we've done is working?

[upaloopa]

10. We review the data and make reasoned

assumptions. The CDC was not permitted to collect data on gun deaths. Now they will do that thanks to President Obama.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

15. re: "The CDC was not permitted to collect data on gun deaths."

2009 - http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf
See table 10 page 39.

2008 - http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr59/nvsr59_02.pdf
See table 2 page 20.

"We review the data and make reasoned assumptions."

How is it okay to legislate the impairment of a right based on assumptions?

[Scuba]

23. Where's the 2010 numbers? 2011?

[AtheistCrusader]

26. They take time to release.

They are always a year or two behind. They were not prohibited from collecting that data. The FBI collects and publishes it as well.

[Scuba]

30. You sure?

http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/15/16532333-obama-plan-eases-freeze-on-cdc-gun-violence-research?lite

The move effectively reverses 17 years of what scientists say has been a virtual ban on basic federal research and is part of a package of new gun control policies aimed at reducing gun violence after tragedies such as the shootings last year in Aurora, Colo., and Newtown, Conn. It would encourage research including links between video games, media images and violence.

The action immediately was praised by scientists who said pro-gun advocates -- including the National Rifle Association -- had choked off funding for CDC firearms research starting in the mid-1990s and imposed a chilling effect on those who dared to pursue it.
"He's saying this is very important and I'm going to back you on this," said Dr. Mark Rosenberg, president of the Task Force for Global Health and director of the CDC's Center for Injury Prevention and Control from 1994 to 1999. "Basically, they've been terrorized by the NRA."

From the mid- 1980s to the mid-1990s, the CDC conducted original, peer-reviewed research into gun violence, including questions such as whether people who had guns in their homes gained protection from the weapons. (The answer, researchers found, was no. Homes with guns had a nearly three times greater risk of homicide and a nearly five times greater risk of suicide than those without, according to a 1993 study in the New England Journal of Medicine.)

But in 1996, the NRA, with the help of Congressional leaders, moved to suppress such information and to block future federal research into gun violence, Rosenberg said.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. Different issue.

That is original research quite apart from the numbers we were just discussing. This releases the CDC to study things like correlations between guns in the home and domestic violence, or likelihood of injury. Things like that.

Which I think is great, because some of the earlier studies on risk for guns in the home are quite flawed, and I would like to see the CDC re-visit those studies.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. Here's the link...

...for recent data: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/deaths.htm

[Scuba]

31. There's a difference between data and research. Look it up if you don't believe me.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

34. I trust you on that. :) n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

43. That's not what Upaloopa said.

"The CDC was not permitted to collect data on gun deaths."

That is false. That statement was challenged correctly. Your aim is off.

[gejohnston]

16. they can collect data and have been all along, they do it all the time along with the FBI,

they just can't lobby.

[ZombieHorde]

9. Good catch. nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. No!

This is:



and maybe this:



and this:



and definitely this:

[Lurks Often]

6. You neglected to point that

armed CIVILIANS using personally owned guns opened fire on Whitman forcing him to take cover, which resulted in fewer deaths and allowed police and an armed civilian to enter the building, proceed to the top and shoot Whitman.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

8. That just...

...a rumor. It's never been proven the civilians had any effect.

[spin]

54. According to the Dallas Morning News. ...

Shooting brings back memories of 1966 UT Tower killings for officer who stopped gunman
By MICHAEL E. YOUNG / The Dallas Morning News [e-mail]
Published: 30 September 2010 06:55 AM

When Ramiro "Ray" Martinez heard news of Tuesday's shooting spree at the University of Texas in Austin, his mind snapped back 44 years to a far more tragic rampage on the campus.

***snip***

More than 300 feet below, at the base of the tower, Martinez found a civilian named Allen Crum, a retired Air Force tail gunner who had never fired a shot in combat. Together they worked their way to the top of the tower with another Austin officer, Houston McCoy, following them.
Martinez carried his duty revolver, Crum had an old rifle, and McCoy toted a 12-gauge shotgun.
At the door to the observation deck, Martinez told Crum to cover him and point his gun toward the southwest corner.

"I said, 'If the guy comes around the corner, shoot him,' " Martinez remembered. "Allen thought he heard him running, and he fired a shot."
news/state/headlines/20100929-Shooting-brings-back-memories-of-1966-4343.ece

While Crum may not have taken down the shooter he was there and fired a shot that may have had some impact on the eventual outcome. Hard to say for sure.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

55. perhaps...

...you missed the tag in my post???

[spin]

64. Yup. Sure did. ...

Perhaps I should stop multitasking when posting on DU. It might stop some of my stupid replies.

[Bonhomme Richard]

11. And...Who is taking your guns away?

You can change out your 10 round magazine for another while you are keeping the bad guy at bay.
Just saying.

[Lurks Often]

13. Thanks for that post

It had absolutely zero content.

[Scuba]

12. An assault weapon ban would not have stopped any of them. But the background checks should have ...

... the assault weapon ban would have stopped (or at least greatly slowed) several others.

Just because an AWB wouldn't stop some killers doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

18. re: "...the assault weapon ban would have stopped..."

I'm not following you on why you believe that. Please explain.

[Scuba]

20. Do you doubt the Newtown shooter would have been slowed/stopped if he had been ....

... carrying less firepower?

Are you really willing to pick nits when the lives of our citizens - our children - are at stake?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

21. My single dominating thought...

...regarding every school shooting that I've read or heard about, is that these folks pick up weapons without regard for legality. There is nothing about an assault weapon (in several versions of the definition that I have read) that differ materially from other firearms that can cause equivalent death and injury.

There may even be, as I write this, an engineer hard at work somewhere designing a rifle that accepts more than one 10 round magazine.

Any AWB is a distraction, nothing more.

[Scuba]

22. And others argue that nit picking over definitions like "assault weapon" are a distraction ....

... so we might just as well ban everything with more firepower than a single-shot 22. I'd hate to see that happen, but that's where the intransigence is going to get us.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

25. Single shot 22s...

...are quite plentiful in the US. I believe a .22 revolver was used to kill RFK.

I don't believe bans will have any measurable impact on violence.
BTW .44 caliber black powder pistols are still available by mail order since the ATF doesn't class them as firearms.

[krispos42]

24. You mean like a quad-stack magazine?

Put two 10-rounders, presumably at an angle of some kind, and the gun alternately draws from each one?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

27. That's the idea

"...two 10-rounders, presumably at an angle of some kind..."

That's the idea, exactly. 10 round capacity satisfies the law (and some patentable functions) will not only get you lots of buyers for the guns themselves but royalties from after mag makers.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. His weapon was 1994 AWB legal, just an aside.

[Scuba]

32. Nitpicking while people are dying. I feel sorry for you.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. I know facts are inconvenient things.

I called it an 'aside'. Not primarily germane to the discussion. It DOES speak to the need for any forthcoming legislation to be intelligently targeted to ACTUAL PROBLEMS however.

[Scuba]

36. "ACTUAL PROBLEMS" instead of trivial details like dead children?

[AtheistCrusader]

38. Nice try.

Extending the former 1994 CAWB would have done nothing to prevent those dead kids. Your problem, not mine.

Shame on me for wanting to actually address the real problem.

[Scuba]

40. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen you recommend anything, just whine about those who are trying.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Actually, I've been posting in the gungeon in favor of registration since early DU2.

Started a couple threads on it, took my lumps, etc.
I've also been asking people to consider repealing the Hughes Amendment and 1986 GOPA, and extend the NFA registry downward to include semi-auto weapons, and defending that stance.

So uh... read more?

[Scuba]

44. Glad to hear it. Perhaps you'll repost some of those recommendations now.

[AtheistCrusader]

45. I've been doing it as appropriate since Sandy Hook.

So have several other 'gungeonites'.

[Scuba]

46. Great, can you provide some links please?

[AtheistCrusader]

47. Here's a few

from the more easy to recognize subject lines. There are more.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2189873
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2171390
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=363940
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=363554
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=101388
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2149447
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=98429
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=98208
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=97807
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=94180

[Scuba]

48. Thanks. Your support for background checks and registration is a good start.

[AtheistCrusader]

50. I'm glad it meets with your approval.

[Scuba]

51. I'm pretty sure you don't give a hoot about my approval. That's fine ......

... but I am glad to see another gun owner here who doesn't object to anything and everything being proposed to rein in our gun violence problem.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. Let me take a step back.

I apologize for being sarcastic with you. I interpreted your posts upthread to be overly hostile, and I did that without considering context. This place has been absolutely overrun with trolls of late, and the discourse has become super-acerbic, so if you were short with me or others, I should take that into account.

So, I apologize, and look forward to working WITH you in the future.

[Scuba]

53. Thanks. I also apologize if I was antagonistic. I'm also exasperated with the trolls.

[krispos42]

37. Thought you wanted to come up with effective laws?

If you want to outlaw the gun the Newtown shooter used, and you cheer and clap when anybody proposes reauthorizing the expired 1994 ban, shouldn't it matter that the gun the Newtown shooter used was legal under the ban?

[Scuba]

39. And your point is? Do you think the initiative the Prez announced today WON'T help?

Not even a little?

[krispos42]

42. The 23-point initiative?

That's not what I'm talking about, really, but I can't see it hurting anything.


Of course, the devil is in the details. Insider knowledge and intimate knowledge of the bowels of the bureaucracy are what makes Wall Street and made BushCo so powerful. Who every heard of the Office of Legal Counsel until BushCo used it to legitimize torture and domestic warrantless wiretaps and preventive arrest and all the other Orwellian CRAP that they spewed?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

49. Ohh!

We don't need no stinking warrants. We can make up FISA warrants and put any date we want on them.

Haw, haw haw, hee, hee, hee.

[GreenStormCloud]

59. Law is made up of details and technicalities.

Screw up on those and you create huge loopholes. The 1994 AWB was a massive disaster because of anti-gun people not wanting to learn technical details.

[Scuba]

60. Yes, it's the anti-gunners fault. They wont make that mistake again...

... they'll just ban everything with more firepower than a single-shot 22. That'll solve the problem of their refusal to learn how many twists are ideal for a 26 inch barrel in .308 caliber shooting 150 grain ammo.

[GreenStormCloud]

61. Gun-banners don't have that much political power.

Reports say that the NRA has gained 250K members in the past month. That's folks that are paying money to join. And membership is still skyrocketing.

[Scuba]

62. NRA has about 4 million members. Obama for America has about 100 million.

Read 'em and weep.

[spin]

63. Have you ever considered that firearms do save lives? ...

I might not be posting this if my mother would not have been carrying a .22 caliber S&W LadySmith revolver in her purse when she left a bus after work in the 1920s and started to walk home after work.

A man who had been hiding behind some bushes rushed her. Since she had her hand on the gun in the purse she was able to draw it and fire two shots over his head. He ran.

Had she been raped she might never met my father and I would have never been born. Rape is a life changing event and was even more so in those days. Obviously if she had been killed I would not be here. As it was she lived to a ripe old age of 89 and was the mother of three boys.

I greatly regret the fact that firearms have been misused recently to commit tragedies. I actually had a nightmare about the Connecticut shooting shortly after it happened and I rarely have nightmares.

Any honest discussion about gun control should mention that firearms are used by honest and responsible citizens to deter attacks from individuals who intend to seriously injure or kill them and have the capability to do so.

[Eleanors38]

66. Nitpicking? If you want a ban to do something, you had better pick a lot...

School deaths may be avoided by Sen. Barbara Boxer's plan of stationing national guard troops at schools; but that is an "NRA talking point" on steroids, and you don't hear it now since it does not comport with MSM/controller narrative.

[GreenStormCloud]

57. He would have used something else just as deadly. N/T

[Scuba]

58. What? A hammer?

[GreenStormCloud]

56. Background checks would not have stopped Whitman.

His was a rare case. Autopsy revealed that he had a brain tumor in the amygdala, the part of the brain that controls the strength of our impulses. People who knew him state that he behaved normally until a few weeks before the shooting. It is impossible to prove that the brain tumor cause the rampage, but I consider it highly likely.

A background check would not have found anything. However, I fully support background checks as they will catch most, but not all, of the dangerous people.

[jmg257]

14. 1) Apparently not. 2) Depends on how they redefine AW (and whether he would

have had to comply/would have complied).

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

19. Any AWB...

...is nothing more than SNL fodder.

[iiibbb]

65. armed citizens helped stop Whitman

Approximately 20 minutes after first shooting from the observation deck, Whitman began to encounter return fire from both the police and other armed citizens. One Texas Ranger used a student as spotter to help calibrate his shots. At this point, Whitman chose to fire through waterspouts located on each side of the tower walls. This protected him from gunfire below, but limited his range of targets.[44] Police sharpshooter Marion Lee reported from a small airplane that he had observed a single sniper firing from the observation deck. Lee tried to shoot Whitman from the plane, but the turbulence proved too great. Whitman shot at the plane, and it moved off to circle from a greater distance.

[cohioan741]

67. Probably little difference

I tried to do a search as to which guns were used to shoot his victims, but didn't want to take the time to research each one. However, it seems pretty likely that most of the victims shot from the tower were with the scoped bolt-action rifle. Why? Because that would have been the most accurate of the guns he had with him. It would have required deliberate, relatively slow fire shots. At that range such shooting would be more effective than an untrained spray and pray approach with an "assault rifle." The M1 Garand is a high powered semi-automatic, but without a scope it would have limited effectiveness for all but the most skilled marksman. Even less so for the less powerful and less accurate Carbine.

I believe there were two victims of the shotgun. It's important to note that the shotgun and bolt-action hunting rifle would not have been banned by even the new, stringent NY state semi-auto and AW ban.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

68. I concur

While I haven't read anything to confirm that the bolt-action rifle was used for the long range shots, I did read about the family that encountered him in his ascent up the stairs and a few of them were killed with the 12 gauge.

I have fired both Garand and carbine. The joys of M1thumb were explained in detail. These would not be my choice of rifles given the bolt-action with a scope.


IMHO, the most carefully formulated laws, which through the regulating of arms and ammo, seek to eliminate deadly shootings are sure to prevent all but the next deadly shooting.