Please vote: Just an inference on my part...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

Last edited Sat Jan 26, 2013, 05:53 PM - Edit history (1)

...here; many pro-control folks seem convinced that the primary reason for the violent crime rate being higher in the US than much of Western Europe is the greater freedom to own a gun in the US.

If there was strong evidence from an unimpeachable source that firearm availability did not much influence the violent crime rate, would you still advocate for more restrictive gun laws?

Please share your thoughts if you care to.

10 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	1 (10%)
	No
	9 (90%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Warren Stupidity]

1. You substituted "violent crime rate" for "murder rate."

On the other hand if you can demonstrate that the gun crime rate does not correlate to gun availability....

[gejohnston]

2. available to whom?

gun availability for law abiding Mexicans is almost non existent. To the cartels on the other hand...............

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

3. Thanks

I fixed that.

Re: "...if you can demonstrate that the gun crime rate does not correlate to gun availability..."

Violent crime victims are generally unconcerned about the tool used in their victimization. I am unconcerned about whether one third, two thirds or all murder victims are murdered using a gun. I am concerned about what will change the overall rate of murder. I think everyone should view it as progress if the overall rate of murder drops by half, regardless of whether none or all of those are murdered using a gun.

I have no interest in demonstrating anything solely about the gun crime rate. Anything which lowers the violent crime rate while respecting the rights of individuals is a good thing.

If all guns magically disappeared, but all of the crime rates remained the same what is improved?

Why is there any need to discuss the gun crime rate?

[Warren Stupidity]

8. because the correlation between gun availability and crimes committed with guns is bloody obvious.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

9. If there is...

...a correlation between a type of criminal activity and a product, does that warrant registration, licensing and other legal restrictions on the commerce of that type of product?

[Warren Stupidity]

10. If there is a public health issue with 30,000 dead every year, yes it does.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

12. You've been well prepared...

Last edited Sun Jan 27, 2013, 10:50 PM - Edit history (1)

...how is it among the borg?


Would you categorize suicide as a "public health issue"?

[jimmy the one]

4. Pass on unscientific poll here, flawed as well

discnt: If there was strong evidence from an unimpeachable source that firearm availability did not much influence the violent crime rate, would you still advocate for more restrictive gun laws?

hahaha, pass but no vote; internet polls are notoriously UNscientific, since they are not done by random; & the computer input is suspect in itself since people can log off & come back under a new screenname or alternate computer & vote again - (to check this I once logged on & off ~5 times to vote in one - just that once is all, & btw the poll was obviously junk science).

wiki, 'violent crime': The comparison of violent crime statistics between countries is usually problematic, due to the way different countries classify crime.[2] Valid comparisons require that similar offences between jurisdictions be compared. Often this is not possible because crime statistics aggregate equivalent offences in such different ways that make it difficult or impossible to obtain a valid comparison.
The United States (BJS) counts five categories of crime as violent crimes: murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and simple assault.
2 .. Canada Canada classifies homicides, attempted murder, all assaults, all sexual offences, abduction and robbery as violent crime
3 .. New Zealand .. has a category for violence that includes homicides, kidnapping, abduction, robbery, assaults, intimidation, threats, and group assembly, while all sexual offences are shown in a separate category from violence
4 ...Australia violent crime is classified under a number of different categories that often indicate a range of both violent and non-violent behaviour. The categories include: Homicide and related offences, covering murder (including conspiracies and attempts), manslaughter and driving causing death.
Acts intended to cause injury, such as Assault, as well as other acts.
Sexual assault and related offences including non-assaultive sexual offences, such as those against a child.
Abduction and related offences such as kidnapping, deprivation of liberty or false imprisonment.
Robbery, extortion and related offences such as blackmail.

A violent crime or crime of violence is a crime in which the offender uses or threatens to use violent force upon the victim. This entails both crimes in which the violent act is the objective, such as murder, as well as crimes in which violence is the means to an end, (including criminal ends) such as robbery.

As well, there are different crime reporting methods per country. England has scant guncrime but more razor & cosh gangs, bloody noses & the like.
A better comparison imo, is to compare gun injury costs between UK & US, where the US has ~70 times higher medical costs for treating gunshot injuries, something like 70 million to 2, or could it be 70 billion to 2 billion, uncertain - not sure if that's after adjust for per capita, perhaps then 70 - 10.
Just curious, who's your 'unimpeachable source'? can't possibly be john 'mary rosh' lott!!!!!!!

[SQUEE]

5. oh my, such weaving of words of substance to say nothing.

He never claimed an actual study, but merely as a thought experiment, an idea to bat around to see for yourself where you stand and why. It's important when attempting intellectual honesty to recognize our own biases.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

7. My reason for asking was a bit more involved but...

...you have the essentials.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. I think I am due beer and travel money after reading this guy's posts.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

13. Please see...

...the link for rates for your local area: http://gsa.gov/portal/category/21287

[Eleanors38]

20. One word: Straw. There's a great future in it. nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

6. It was hypothetical

Your inability to choose among 'yes', 'no' and 'pass' kind of leaves you out here.

[DanTex]

14. Sigh. The violent crime rate here is not higher. The homicide rate is (much) higher.

This is because in the US, a much higher fraction of violent crimes involve guns, and crimes involving guns are far more likely to result in homicide.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

15. Could be...

"...crimes involving guns are far more likely to result in homicide."

Sometimes the homicide of the victim and sometimes of the assailant.

[DanTex]

16. Umm... 10,000 gun homicides, and 300 hundred self-defense homicides.

To even attempt to compare those two numbers is preposterous. But keep the misinformation coming!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. You implied that...

...I compared the numbers. I did nothing of the kind. How could I have as I didn't state the numbers? The fact that you're unable to discern that I agreed with you in part tells me that your interest is in being argumentative.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. I like the part where he says 300 hundred.

say what

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

19. you know how they think...