Obama administration reveals new ATF gun probe rules

[ellisonz]

Reuters – 34 mins ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Obama administration on Friday revealed new reforms undertaken to improve how it conducts undercover gun trafficking investigations in the wake of a botched operation in which scores of weapons disappeared.

The reforms require additional oversight of undercover operations, including those that involve more than 50 firearms, and, in most cases, ends the practice of paying gun dealers to serve as confidential informants.

Additionally, a new review committee has been established to monitor sensitive undercover cases or those that would have a "significant regional or national impact," according to the Justice Department.

The details were revealed just before Attorney General Eric Holder testifies on Thursday before members of the House of Representatives' Oversight and Government Reform Committee about the bungled operation known as "Fast and Furious."

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-administration-reveals-atf-gun-probe-rules-010306196.html

[TheWraith]

1. Not "scores." The ATF let over two thousand weapons be sold to criminals.

Often overruling the objections of the store owners who wanted to refuse the sales. One of several dozen reasons the ATF is considered a terrible agency run by utterly incompetent people.

[Hoyt]

3. Gun dealers might have wanted to protect their asses, but they were happy to take the money.

If they really did not want to sell guns that might be used to kill someone, THEY WOULD NOT BE IN THE GUN BUSINESS.

[TheWraith]

6. As usual, you parade around your ignorance.

You could just as easily say that if a car dealer didn't want to be selling getaway vehicles to bank robbers, they wouldn't be in the car business.

[Hoyt]

8. Cars and guns aren't quite the same in this context. But, I get the fact you think gun dealers are

essential to our well being . . . . . . well yours maybe.

Now, if car dealers advertised their cars as getaway vehicles they might be analogous. But they don't. Gun dealers on the other hand do stock and sell guns made and marketed to those who want something to kill the boogeyman.

As to my "ignorance," at least I don't have to strap a gun on to walk down the street and I don't promote others doing so as an answer to crime.

[TheWraith]

11. Again, you're reacting to your beliefs rather than actual reality.

Kind of like the Republicans talking about "welfare queens" driving Cadillacs; you create a stereotype in your head and base your opinions on that, instead of trying to gain any kind of accurate view of the people you're talking about.

[rl6214]

13. "Now, if car dealers advertised their cars as getaway vehicles they might be analogous."

Now if gun dealers advertised their guns as being used to kill people, you might have made a point but as usual, you haven't.

"at least I don't have to strap a gun on to walk down the street "

and of course the usual dose of shtick thrown in for comic relief

[one-eyed fat man]

17. At least one bank robber wrote a testimonial to Ford

http://history1900s.about.com/od/1930s/qt/clydeletter.htm

Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker are infamous for their two-year crime spree from 1932 until their deaths in a hail of bullets in 1934. More amazing than his novice murders and robberies was Clyde's uncanny ability to evade the police even when he was surrounded.

Part of Clyde's ability to evade capture was in his skill as a driver, while the other part was most definitely in the choices of cars that he stole. Quite often, Clyde would be in a car that could out maneuver and out run any of the police cars that attempted to follow him.

Additionally, living a life on the run meant that Clyde and Bonnie spent days and even weeks at a time in their car while traveling long distances and sleeping in their car at night.

The car that Clyde preferred, one that offered both speed and comfort, was the Ford V-8. Clyde was so thankful for these cars that he wrote Henry Ford a letter in April 10, 1934.

The letter read:

Tulsa, Okla
10th April

Mr. Henry Ford
Detroit Mich.

Dear Sir: --
While I still have got breath in my lungs I will tell you what a dandy car you make. I have drove Fords exclusively when I could get away with one. For sustained speed and freedom from trouble the Ford has got ever other car skinned and even if my business hasen't been strickly legal it don't hurt anything to tell you what a fine car you got in the V8 --

Yours truly
Clyde Champion Barrow

Over the years, many have questioned the authenticity of Clyde's letter to Henry Ford, based on a discrepancy over handwriting. The letter is currently on display at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan.

Bonnie and Clyde met their death in this stolen Ford V8.



Clyde Barrow was particularly partial to the BAR. His were stolen from National Guard Armories and he had modified them to suit. Colt, starting in 1931 manufactured a “civilian” version of the BAR called the Monitor, for the police market. When Bonnie & Clyde met their end, Frank Hamer (the Texas Ranger that led ambush that killed them)requested, and received four Colt 'Monitors' with two magazines each of armor-piecing ammunition. The posse consisting of two Texas and two Louisiana lawmen fired a total of 167 rounds.

Along with the bodies of Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker the stolen 1934 Ford Deluxe Sedan contained:

* Three 30-caliber Browning automatic rifles (BARs)
* One ten-gauge sawed-off shotgun
* One twenty-gauge sawed-off shotgun
* Six Colt 45-caliber automatic pistols
* One Colt 32-caliber automatic pistol
* One Colt 38-caliber revolver
* One Colt 45-caliber revolver
* 3000 rounds of ammunition
* The most heinous weapon of all: one saxophone!

[burf]

9. Yea, it sure did show a lack of accountability

by those gun suppliers, not by the guys who sold them but by those who were called by concerned dealers an told them "let the guns go".

You are catching on, slowly, but you're gettin' there.

[Hoyt]

10. They were not required to sell them. Plus, they mere fact they are in the business is enough for me.

Fortunately, F&F is now yielding convictions and has slowed down the trafficking of guns to Mexico.

I hope the ATF modifies some aspects of the program, but keeps it up there and nationwide. It will pay dividends in the future, although I admit it pisses off members of the "gun culture" afraid their pipeline to more and more guns might be narrowed.

[beevul]

14. Yea, you're right, they didn't HAVE to cooperate with ATF.

" They were not required to sell them."

Yeay, you're right, they didn't HAVE to cooperate with ATF.

That IS of course, the accurate description at hand.

Or had you forgotten:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5001612

"collateral damage".

Pfft.

Of course, if they hadn't cooperated with ATF you'd be all over that, telling us all how "baser" or "rude" they were, or some other such contrived nonsense designed to paint them in one evil fashion or another.

You know it, and everyone here knows it.

Must be nice to have it both ways.

[rl6214]

15. How does/did/could F&F narrow someone in the "gun culture" pipeline to more guns?

Really? The guns were going to Mexico. I don't think anyone in the "gun culture" are getting their guns from Mexico.

[rl6214]

12. Of course they wanted to protect their asses

and of course if you had proof they were "happy to take the money" you would prove it BUT as usual, you don't. That make about as much sense as this comment:

"If they really did not want to sell guns that might be used to kill someone, THEY WOULD NOT BE IN THE GUN BUSINESS."

Because of course they don't sell at all to hunters, only to murderers.

[Atypical Liberal]

18. You are ignoring the fact that some gun stores called the ATF and raised a red flag.

You are ignoring the fact that some gun stores called the ATF and raised a red flag, but they were told to proceed with the sales by the ATF.

If they really did not want to sell guns that might be used to kill someone, THEY WOULD NOT BE IN THE GUN BUSINESS.

This is like saying if a car dealership did not want to sell cars that might be used to kill someone they would not be in the car business.

[SteveW]

19. Yes, I can see why the "new" approch won't rely on gun dealers...

...since the ATF didn't pay any attention to them in the first place.

[jody]

2. Obama's administration wasn't just caught with its pants down but bare ass naked. If they were

private citizens, they would be facing long prison sentences.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. Horribly inaccurate title on the article

Your title is a direct quote and I am not taking you to task for it.

The BATF has changed its rules on how it will run major sting operations.

The BATF and the administration can not control how the Congress chooses to investigate/probe the situation.

[ellisonz]

7. Okie.

1. How do I send a correction or letter to the editor?
Send an e-mail to [e-mail] and it will be forwarded to the reporter or editor.

http://www.ap.org/pages/about/faq.html#1

Always an option...

[X_Digger]

5. A coat of whitewash before Holder's testimony.

I applaud the changes, but I question the timing.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

16. Politically derived progress...

...always has an element of timing.