Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumThe NRA has opposed Obama's nominee for surgeon general, do you support or oppose that nominee?
Do you support or oppose Obama's nominee for surgeon general?
Vivek Murthy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivek_Murthy
20 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited | |
I support the nomination and think the Senate should confirm the nominee | |
9 (45%) |
|
I oppose the nomination and think the Senate should reject the nominee | |
11 (55%) |
|
2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
Show usernames
Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll |
monmouth3
(3,871 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)monmouth3
(3,871 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)but it doesn't come down to gun lovers opposing him simply because guns. Yeah, riiiight.
spin
(17,493 posts)clffrdjk
(905 posts)Why him? What makes him better than every other doctor in the US?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)clffrdjk
(905 posts)Do you have an answer to my question?
Can you give a reason to support him?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)what's the point of even discussing it with you?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)You couldn't think of a reason and decided to look me up and try to use my lack of posts against me.
I am not even looking to debate your reasons. I just want to know why I should support him.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)what's the point?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)uh huh. cut the nonsense. at least own your position. have the courage to state it.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)Until I have valid reasons to support them. You haven't posted a single reason to support him. You have spent more time looking into me then you have looking into the guy you are supporting.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)My or your support is meaningless unless you are actively lobbying opposition to the nominee to the Senate.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)But I am an odd duck in that I like to think for myself, rather than blindly follow someone else's decisions. This is not a state secret there is no good reason that someone can not articulate why the person was chosen over everyone else.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)"Accept the things I cannot change" is key...
clffrdjk
(905 posts)I just find it very odd how I was immediately jumped on for not supporting this guy, when no one can seem to give me a reason to support him.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Than anything imo. Not that it's right, just the way it is. Spending time speaking to your other, more liberal beliefs in other forums adds credibility to your positions. The gungeon is inhabited by good liberal gun owners. ..it is also bait for posers. ..lots of posers over the years have come and gone through the gungeon.
spin
(17,493 posts)I'm an American and we are known as a nation populated with citizens who have a high level of distrust of our government and those we elect.
The only two Presidents I trusted in my lifetime were "Ike" Eisenhower and JFK. JFK was assassinated while I was in high school. I was young, inexperienced and immature and far more gullible in those years.
I will also point out that there are surely many highly qualified doctors who could be nominated to serve as the Surgeon General and would have no problem being confirmed by the Senate.
edited to add that when I posted this I didn't look at that date of your post. Someone dug this thread up from the grave.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"I do not feel he is qualified..."
What then are the precise and objective qualifications, and which of these qualifications does the current candidate not meet?
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)clffrdjk
(905 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)If you have some reason for not wanting it discussed at DU, you just let us know.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)I was just pointing out that the thread was old and no new data was added when it was brought back from the dead. Thus, expecting a response might be a long shot.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)clffrdjk
(905 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)and you'll keep adding reasons why he can't be #1 and why he's not good enough for you.
pretty obvious what's up.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)I noticed how you couldn't show how he met the years of service in a leadership role qualification. Is that one set unreasonably high?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you wrote it in this thread and if you can't be bothered to either remember or even look at what you've posted here, you aren't serious enough to bother discussing this with.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)Last edited Wed Oct 15, 2014, 10:59 PM - Edit history (1)
Why him? What makes him better than every other doctor in the US?
And no I tend not to remember everything I said 8 months ago.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)clffrdjk
(905 posts)Why do you think he is the best choice for the job?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)If you are a True Believer, a certificate from the local Reiki academy
is qualification enough to be Surgeon General of the United States so long as
they say the right things about guns.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)why is that?
i didn't suddenly start supporting the Democratic nominee for surgeon general with this candidate.
i've supported pretty much all of them.
you on the other hand had some sort of issue with this one in particular and it's not guns, not it's not guns you say, it's ummm, not enough executive experience.
i get that we won't agree very often on DU.
but if you won't even be honest about what you think, then i don't think you're posting out of honest conviction, but instead you're just playing a dishonest game with me.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Look at his credentials. I see nothing to object to. How about you? Am I missing something?
clffrdjk
(905 posts)That separates him from the pack. I am still wondering why he is the best choice for the job.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Who else is/was a contender?
clffrdjk
(905 posts)I don't have an alternative candidate that I am supporting. Just plainly asking why him over any other doctor, why is he the best person for the job?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)You have no alternative besides "every doctor in the US"
Looks to me like you are flying your true colors on this one. Why don't you ask some of those doctors if they support his nomination?
Or is the opinion of Dr Rand Paul more to your liking? Maybe you'd prefer him for the job.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)To avoid answering the simple question of, why him? Is it really that hard? Do you not know why you think he is the right person for the job?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)clffrdjk
(905 posts)Just maybe we can discredit the question by insinuating that he is a right winger. And then we don't have to answer it. Or even wonder why we support that man in the first place.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)His education and public service experience is astounding.
A quick google search indicates that this man is head and shoulders above most physicians. The only folk that seem to question his qualifications are the NRA (and those politicans "afraid" of the NRA and their money) and right wingers. This is a truly impressive man.
Dr. Vivek Hallegere Murthy is the Co-Founder and President of Doctors for America, a position he has held since 2009. Dr. Murthy is also a Hospitalist Attending Physician and Instructor in Medicine at Brigham and Womens Hospital at Harvard Medical School, a position he has held since 2006. In 2011, Dr. Murthy was appointed to serve as a Member of the Advisory Group on Prevention, Health Promotion, and Integrative and Public Health. Dr. Murthy has been the Co-Founder and Chairman of the Board of TrialNetworks, formerly known as Epernicus, since 2007. Dr. Murthy co-founded VISIONS Worldwide in 1995, a non-profit organization focused on HIV/AIDS education in India and the United States, where he served as President from 1995 to 2000 and Chairman of the Board from 2000 to 2003. Dr. Murthy received a B.A. from Harvard University, an M.B.A. from Yale School of Management, and an M.D. from Yale School of Medicine.http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/blogs/white-coat-notes/2013/11/14/obama-nominating-vivek-murthy-harvard-and-brigham-and-women-surgeon-general/eo6mit1nNtLpUxE6VrizLJ/blog.html
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)He's not head of his department. He also lacks sufficient management experience.
What makes him qualified to run the vastly larger United States Public Health Service
Comissioned Corps?
I don't doubt that he's a fine physician and excellent professor, but he's not yet ready for the
job he's being touted for.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)on the same basis? no executive experience?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Obama was a member of the Senate, so he had knowledge of how the Federal government
runs things. Murthy doesn't even run a department where he works. He's not even
on the faculty at his universities' School of Public Health:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/faculty/#M
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)correct?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Which is to say, not at all...
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)though what he does have is impressive. There have to be tons of docs who have long time experience in public health that may have been a better choice.
CTyankee
(63,909 posts)be OPPOSED vehemently by the 2A folks. They will inevitably come down on the side of more sensible gun laws in this country. It is the only intelligent and informed way to come down. Public health docs see the ravages of our insane gun culture every day in EDs across this country.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)I personally know several docs that have the experience. Moot point now. I hope he can get spun up quickly and I hope he does well.
CTyankee
(63,909 posts)I'm sure he will have lots of good folks working for him that can help.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Or do you no longer support Obama and his choices?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...other times, I'm down with the POTUS.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)So, why not vote?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Besides that, are you really sure you want to tout DU polls,
given the results of another one we both voted in?:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024662934
"Should America work towards becoming a gun-free Country?"
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)I see you decided to be a fence sitter on this, even though you say you oppose him. Interesting.
I considered voting "neither" in the other poll, because the question is loaded. Gun free is not my ideal, but gun sane is and the way the NRA and gun industry is peddling it's junk and fear, maybe gun free is the only way.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)taking all the same positions.
thank you for taking that position.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I think the reasons are far more nefarious
Gun Laws: A New Litmus Test For Surgeon General?
You said, in your advocacy for passage of gun control, last year, that youre tired of politicians playing politics with guns, putting lives at risk because theyre scared of the NRA, Alexander said and then continued with a question: To what extent do you intend to use the surgeon generals office as a bully pulpit for gun control?
http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/03/nra-surgeon-general-vivek-murthy
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)why is this a game to you? your opposition is about guns and for some reason you are afraid to say that.
why?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Of course, when they shoot each other, they still expect EMTs to roll out for them on the public dime.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Maybe a food registry, 10-day waiting period and a cholesterol check before purchasing high-capacity fatty foods would be in order.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Personally, I'd prefer to stay away from the fatty foods as much as possible.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)you'd need a gun.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)People should decide these things for themselves.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...on guns? There are some major issues in the field of public health that are going to
come to the fore in major ways soon, and the Feds really need someone with experience
and political/organizational nous to navigate them:
*Climate change, and the effects on health (the current spread of infectious diseases
such as dengue fever, West Nile virus, Valley fever and Eastern Equine Encephalitis.
*the aging population, in common with other industrialized countries
*the effects of pollutants (got coal sludge?)
*Maybe this isn't quite as urgent as the above, but sleep deprivation
will only get worse in the future- and it's damn sure widespread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/114210992
Even if Murthy had said nothing at all about guns, he'd still be unqualified...
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Ignoring the 'gun' issue, I don't see why the surgeon general has to be an expert on any specific field of medicine, and even if he was, that would rule out his being an expert in pretty much every other field. Specialization sucks a lot of time; it's hard to be an expert in all sorts of subfields of healthcare at the same time. Besides, he's got an MBA in healthcare management in addition to his MD, so he probably has the 'political/organizational nous' you claim he needs.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)So why is he a better choice than she is?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I haven't seen your cousin's CV, but if it's as wide as his, congrats, your cousin has an impressive resume.
Second, amazing as this might be, the 'best' person for any given job rarely gets that job, or is even considered for that job. What happens is that someone, usually some low level grunt, is tasked with finding a 'field' of suitable applicants. People who have input can suggest others who are left out. But here's the fun part. Probably hundreds of other qualified applicants are never considered, simply because they didn't turn up because of whatever original search parameters were used. The field is then winnowed down to what whoever gets to make the final decision considers 'best' from among those still in the running.
And this happens every day, for all sorts of jobs, not just 'surgeon general'. I'm having a tough time finding a hospital nursing job locally, even though I've seen all sorts of nurses I wouldn't trust to be my own nurse who got hired on just fine somehow.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)What you have failed to mention is what set him apart from the crowd? You are absolutely right they did not just draw his name out of a hat, there was a process.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)The only people who know specifically what set him apart from the others under consideration are those involved in the selection process, since they didn't make their process notes public.
Maybe he's spent time in Chicago (I didn't look back over his CV to find out) since so many of the Presidential picks for all sorts of posts tend to be Chicago people.
But because we don't and can't know, there's no real point in complaining about him being chosen as opposed to anyone else, unless you actually have someone you think is far more qualified who was actually interested in the job and who was even considered.
Are there better qualified people out there? Probably. What were the qualifications being looked for beyond a certain minimum competence as a physician? None of us know.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)just finished residency a few years ago, I would like someone with more experience.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)thank you.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Have to see what the candidates overall experience is, the issue with guns makes no difference to me. The Surgeon General does not make laws.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)what's fascinating are all the acrobatics to make it sound like it doesn't.
not even the courage to post your actual reasoning on the matter. wow.
Token Republican
(242 posts)a candidate with the exact same qualifications who was 150% behind the NRA's position?
Odds are no you wouldn't, since he's under qualified and is hostile to your views.
Would you it be a factor if he had 30 more years experience.
Odds are you might support him then, but with reservations.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)if i did oppose him on the basis of his position on guns.
i sure as hell wouldn't try to blame my opposition on some other reason.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)please do not tell me what my position is.
I answered your question and you do not seem to comprehend my answer, I thought I was quite clear, He is to young and inexperienced to lead the entire US health system, I would like to see a nominee with more experience.
The gun issue is a non-issue to me
CAN YOU READ THAT LAST PART AND UNDERSTAND IT
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Shall we have it out in the open or you wanna just keep walkin down the block.
You're call caller
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)For the folks who think his positions on gun control are relevant to the post of Surgeon General, what are Murthy's actual positions on gun control?
clffrdjk
(905 posts)Is that the only people in this thread who bring up his stance on guns are the ones who support him. And that all but one of them have refused to even try and give a reason for their support.
Response to CreekDog (Original post)
Boom Sound 416 This message was self-deleted by its author.
hack89
(39,171 posts)I support him for surgeon general regardless of his view on guns. However, it is hard to imagine him having any impact on the gun debate even if he wanted to.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)that will be ignored by Congress if he tries to do an end run around them in regards to gun control.
beevul
(12,194 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Whatever...
beevul
(12,194 posts)My Dear Creekdog,
It wasn't what you asked, it was why you asked it.
But then, you knew that, didn't you.
What point is there trying to be cute about it, when everyone here knows its the truth.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Didn't you know he/she has exquisite and perfect-pitch leftist & activist credentials? Thus, no moral qualms when he/she says: "It depends..."
spin
(17,493 posts)as an nominee for Surgeon General.
Our nation is currently going through a major overhaul of our healthcare system. The voice of a respected and well qualified physician might help the reform progress and help insure that eventually our nation has a world class healthcare system that we can all be proud of.
While important, the gun control issue is far from the most critical medical issue in our nation. One example ...
Many states are allowing the medical use of marijuiana and some have even legalized the recreational use of this drug. For decades our nation has been told by our government that marijuiana has absolutely no medical value. It now appears that this was most likely propaganda.
The strong voice of a very experienced and well respected Surgeon General on this subject might help form opinions and policy in this debate.
I fear that any advice from a Surgeon General with little experience will be discounted and ignored as foolish by many, especially those with vested interests to protect.
If it is extremely important to Obama to nominate a Surgeon General who supports strong gun control, I'm sure he can easily find one with considerable experience.
CTyankee
(63,909 posts)has LOTS of public health expertise. Too many sights seen in EDs all over this country...
spin
(17,493 posts)emergency rooms in large cities who own firearms for self defense.
My son in law is one. He worked as a emergency tech in a level II trauma center and he has a concealed weapons permit and carries either a Glock 27 or a Ruger LCP.
CTyankee
(63,909 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)
Fort Myers, FL, violent crime, on a scale from 1 (low crime) to 100, is 82. Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. The US average is 41.4.
Fort Myers, FL, property crime, on a scale from 1 (low) to 100, is 57. Property crime includes the offenses of burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson. The object of the theft-type offenses is the taking of money or property, but there is no force or threat of force against the victims. The US average is 43.5.
http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/city/florida/fort_myers
To be fair that is the current crime rate in Ft. Myers and my son in law worked in the emergency room years ago. He is currently a truck driver but regrets not staying in the medical field. He left his job in the emergency room because at the time a job as a long haul truck driver paid far more money. Unfortunately working as a truck driver is far more boring than working in an emergency room. He is considering going back to get the training to update his license.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 24, 2014, 02:24 AM - Edit history (1)
And still not one person can answer the question of why him? I hate being on the outside can some one please tell me what makes him the right choice?
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)clffrdjk
(905 posts)Response to clffrdjk (Reply #67)
clffrdjk This message was self-deleted by its author.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)is this the best you guys can do?
clffrdjk
(905 posts)I am not lobbying against the guy I am just wondering why you feel the need to support him to the point of ridiculing me for not supporting him.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you want an answer? go find it. then make your decision.
oh wait, you already made your decision even though you don't know anything about the man.
maybe you would actually know something about the man if you didn't spend all your time here on guns.
except for sidling up to George Zimmerman last year, you haven't posted on a non-gun topic in ages.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)I don't have very much on the line here all I am asking is why should I support him.
At the very least you could point me in the right direction, what tipped you over the edge?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)especially after you demanded that we do it for you.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)most of us aren't like the few in the gungeon.
who barely post on a non-gun related topic and if so, generally to the right of most people.
so the solution is for the rest of us to be more like you all in here.
because that would make this place much better.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)Why is it so hard to answer such a simple question?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)but i don 't play games with one issue gungeon posters.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)Rather than play this game that you say you don't want to play.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)"oh wait, you already made your decision even though you don't know anything about the man.
maybe you would actually know something about the man if you didn't spend all your time here on guns.
except for sidling up to George Zimmerman last year, you haven't posted on a non-gun topic in ages."
Yep that was totally not an attempt to discredit me.
I am not asking you to research it for me, just a few short points on why you made your decision.
CTyankee
(63,909 posts)NancyDL
(140 posts)He called gunshot injuries a public health problem.
pablo_marmol
(2,375 posts)One of the many deceitful strategies of the anti-gunners is to frame the debate as a "public health crisis" - even though gun violence has been declining steadily.
http://www.guncite.com/journals/tennmed.html
Edited to quote:
"And there is a sense in which violence is a public health problem. So let me illustrate the limitations of this line of reasoning with a public-health analogy. After research disclosed that mosquitos were the vector for transmission of yellow fever, the disease was not controlled by sending men in white coats to the swamps to remove the mouth parts from all the insects they could find. The only sensible, efficient way to stop the biting was to attack the environment where the mosquitos bred. Guns are the mouth parts of the violence epidemic. The contemporary urban environment breeds violence no less than swamps breed mosquitos. Attempting to control the problem of violence by trying to disarm the perpetrators is as hopeless as trying to contain yellow fever through mandible control."
James Wright
ileus
(15,396 posts)Laffy Kat
(16,377 posts)It didn't say in wikipedia, but I'm taking it for granted that he supports Choice.
branford
(4,462 posts)Murthy's stance on guns, whether you agree or disagree, makes him extremely, and unnecessarily, controversial to sizable portion of the electorate. His lack of long-established credentials does not help matters. He no doubt has an impressive resume, but you could easily find a number of other loyal Democratic doctors with better credentials and without the baggage.
In fact, the only thing that makes Murthy really stand-out is his position on guns, and it's the very reason why some here and elsewhere are defending a minor and relatively powerless appointee with such passion. The basis for the opposition is also likely the same reason why he was originally selected.
Regardless, the question is not why the NRA or anyone here does or does not support him, but why sufficient number of Democrats in the Senate believe he is problematic enough that they will not vote for him.
If Murthy is as good as some claim, why can't these Democratic Senator's be convinced?
The NRA has stated a position, as is their right. MDA, Bloomberg and anyone who's interested has had more than enough time to reach the electorate. The people who now matter are the voters in swing states generally represented by these vulnerable Senators.
I'll pose more relevant questions: Is Vivek Murthy so important that it could be worth the loss of the Senate? Is it in overall political interests of the Democratic Party to even raise the gun issue at all?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)He's smarter than that.
Guns aren't a public health problem, the public health problems are violent behaviors and self destructive behaviors.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)why do you want us to stop talking about that nominee so badly?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)It's a subject you've been avoiding for months now...
DonP
(6,185 posts)The current acting SG. Great professional resume, proven leadership, more than 6 years of medical experience.
He's already in place and probably an easy confirmation.
While you're trying to stir the shit, why don't you list all those feckless Dem Senators that refused to support Vivek Murthy with a vote, so we can campaign against their re-election, since they must not be real Dems?
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/about/biographies/biosg.html
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)not me.
DonP
(6,185 posts)Or do you just have a hate on for successful doctors from Ukraine?
Sorry you're not getting the response you hoped for ... again.
Maybe you should try the other gun forum.
That's a real hotbed of discussion.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...so kindly spare us the 'self-appointed zampolit' schtick.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)if you want to be taken seriously, pick a position and think about sticking with it.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...so y'all need to just shut up and drink the Kool-aid."
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)and while denying that the primary reason for your opposition is his position on gun injuries and deaths as a public health issue.
this is why your position is bankrupt. it is your position but you pretend it's something else.
i'm not ashamed of my position, why are you and others here ashamed of yours?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)For example, pointing out that Murthy isn't even a department head
where he works isn't an "NRA talking point", it's an inconvenient (for you) truth
Kindly inform us when and how you 'discerned' that my position isn't the one I've stated.
You are merely the latest in a line of gun control advocates claiming the ability
to read minds at a distance.
Do you also practice phrenology and read auras?
beevul
(12,194 posts)Ever heard of the boy who cried wolf?
Now its the guy who cried nra.
Off topic but, I have a couple questions for you:
You anti-gun folk have been ridiculing pro-gun folk, playing guilt by association games, and generally being nasty to people who believe differently than you do on the gun issue, for a couple decades now, and what has it gained you?
Extrapolating from what its gained you to this point, what do you expect it to gain you in the future?