1 Dead, 1 Injured After Neighbor Dispute Over Feeding Deer

[Electric Monk]

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2014/05/06/1-dead-1-injured-after-neighbor-dispute-over-feeding-deer/

Seems like a case of this Neal Zumberge fellow being just another law abiding gun owner (well, mostly, except for the violating a restraining order thing), until he wasn't...

[gejohnston]

1. he possessed a gun while under a restraining order

so, he wasn't. Studies going back at least as far as Marvin Wolfgang's 1958 Patterns in Criminal Homicide show that the "virgin killer thesis" (which is what you are implying this is) is extremely rare.
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/kates/Myth_of_the_Virgin_Killer-Kates-Polsby.pdf

[Electric Monk]

2. So why did he still have his gun(s)? Was the onus on him to voluntarily turn them in?

[gejohnston]

3. Did he ever have them legally?

I don't know what MN state law is, usually the feds don't do much and the locals have no obligation (usually no right to depending on state) to enforce federal law. Before you try to lump in with Bundy, see Washington, Colorado, and medical pot. MN does have UBC probably dating back to the 1920s like Michigan.

My point in bringing up studies like Wolfgang's is that he was probably violating the Gun Control Act before the restraining order.

[Electric Monk]

4. That's a valid question that I don't know the answer to. I guess time will unveil those details. nt

[sarisataka]

6. I am not a lawyer

nor do I play one on the internet.

From what I can determine based on MN law he was not disqualified nor under the Lautenberg Amendment at federal level. In each case, a person is only prohibited firearms possession if it is a restraining order against a family member or other domestic partner. Someone outside of that range does not trigger any disqualification.

I do not think the new MN bill waiting on the governor's signature will change that. It will just clarify and further define rights and responsibilities around domestic violence restraining orders.

This looks like an area to investigate tighten the rules some. Especially for those, as in this case, who then violate a restraining order against a person other than a relative or domestic partner.

[ileus]

5. If the threat is important enough for a court order, one better invest

is something that can stop the threat should the need arise.

Safety first, court papered victim later.

[Electric Monk]

7. Steel plated exterior siding and bullet proof windows?

A gun (or any number of guns) would not have helped the victims in this case.

[Starboard Tack]

8. More guns, there's the answer. More guns = more family fun!

Shoot first, think it over later! Fucking brilliant Ileus!

[gejohnston]

9. target shooting with the family is fun

which is what he meant. It isn't the number of guns, it is who has the guns.

[clffrdjk]

10. That restraining order sure did a lot to protect them.

And I thought you supported concealed carry for people that really need it? Does this not qualify as really needing it?

[Starboard Tack]

12. I do. Does this case have anything to do with CC?

Right, I thought not. The person I responded to thinks guns are safety devices. LOL. He also thinks that teaching his little kids to shoot with their own "personal safety devices" is all part of family fun.
Now, I don't personally have a problem with teaching kids about guns and how to use them responsibly. Guns are extremely lethal weapons and bragging about teaching pre-teens about double-tapping is hardly what I would call "family fun".
You reap what you sow. I wish the best for his kids, his neighbors and all who come into contact with him and his family
Do you think a CC permit would've helped the victims of this killer?

[clffrdjk]

13. Could you at least try to stop contradicting yourself?

Gunz R evil "The person I responded to thinks guns are safety devices. LOL. He also thinks that teaching his little kids to shoot with their own "personal safety devices" is all part of family fun."

but really I am just like you "Now, I don't personally have a problem with teaching kids about guns and how to use them responsibly."

Gunz R evil "Guns are extremely lethal weapons and bragging about teaching pre-teens about double-tapping is hardly what I would call "family fun"."

I have no idea if a concealed weapon would have helped in this case, it sure would not have hurt.

Just how do you rationalize your claimed support of cc with good reason with post #8?

[Starboard Tack]

14. This has nothing to do with concealed carry

I oppose concealed carry on any kind of regular basis, unless the person is under some kind of constant known threat.
I fail to see how a hidden gun would've helped in this case. These poor victims were in a feud wth a sociopath.
Our friend Ileus thinks it is OK to walk around armed just in case he is attacked by some unknown assailant who exists in his fantasy world. He thinks that sharing this practice with small children and teaching them to think as he does is not only healthy, but describes it as "family fun".
If you are defending that kind of behavior then we have nothing further to discuss.

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. Spare us the cheap shots (NPI) at gun owners. Zumberge may be mentally ill from Lyme disease

I am NOT excusing what he did, but he may actually be clinically mentally ill and not a just an
asshole. From the link in the OP:

...Zumberge cited the health concerns over deer ticks as the primary carriers of Lyme disease. He included some medical documents that showed treatment for the disease in both himself and his dog...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7943444

Am J Psychiatry. 1994 Nov;151(11):1571-83.
Lyme disease: a neuropsychiatric illness.
Fallon BA1, Nields JA.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

Lyme disease is a multisystemic illness that can affect the central nervous system (CNS), causing neurologic and psychiatric symptoms. The goal of this article is to familiarize psychiatrists with this spirochetal illness.
METHOD:

Relevant books, articles, and abstracts from academic conferences were perused, and additional articles were located through computerized searches and reference sections from published articles.
RESULTS:

Up to 40% of patients with Lyme disease develop neurologic involvement of either the peripheral or central nervous system. Dissemination to the CNS can occur within the first few weeks after skin infection. Like syphilis, Lyme disease may have a latency period of months to years before symptoms of late infection emerge. Early signs include meningitis, encephalitis, cranial neuritis, and radiculoneuropathies. Later, encephalomyelitis and encephalopathy may occur. A broad range of psychiatric reactions have been associated with Lyme disease including paranoia, dementia, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, panic attacks, major depression, anorexia nervosa, and obsessive-compulsive disorder.

http://www.columbia-lyme.org/patients/ld_lyme_symptoms.html

c. Neuropsychiatric Lyme Disease. Neuropsychiatric symptoms can emerge either early or late in the disseminated phase of infection. These symptoms commonly appear as cognitive symptoms (as in the encephalopathy above) and as irritability, easy tearfulness, anxiety, and depression. Rarely, patients with undetected Lyme disease may present with obsessive compulsive disorder, paranoia, auditory/visual hallucinations, or full blown mania. Sleep disturbances are also common in Lyme disease, with patients more often reporting a need for many hours of sleep, including daytime naps. Sensory hyperarousal occurs in about 50% of patients with later stage neurologic Lyme disease, most often affecting hearing and/or vision. These patients may resort to wearing earplugs, sound protectors, and/or sunglasses indoors. Normal sensory stimulation may over-stimulate, causing confusion and triggering a limbic alarm as if one had been assaulted. While psychiatric problems can arise during the course of Lyme disease (or many other central nervous system infections), it is critical to remember that most psychiatric disorders have nothing to do with Lyme disease. It is also important to note that when patients with Lyme disease experience a psychiatric disorder, treatment for the psychiatric disorder should not be delayed; psychiatric consultation should be obtained so that an adjunctive treatment plan with the internist can be initiated.

While we all agree that 'attempted problem-solving by shooting the neighbors' is bad, feeding deer
in an area with endemic Lyme disease is no better than dumping raw sewage into an aquifer.
In any event, Zumberge will probably be locked up, either in a mental hospital or prison

[Starboard Tack]

16. Excuse me! Cheap shots at gun owners?

Please point them out. I have no objection to gun ownership. I do object to assholes who think guns are tools for solving problems in civil society.
I confess they are probably quite efficient problem solvers on the battle field.
In a civilian context, they have no valid use as problem solvers, except in the most extreme of circumstances.
Carrying them to defend oneself against potential bogeymen, things that go bump in the night and other delusional enemies, does nothing to further the cause of freedom or civil rights. Carrying them willinilly in the mistaken belief that doing so will make the world safer is foolish beyond belief.

No way would I endorse feeding deer, under any circumstances, but you seem to be saying this, in some way, mitigates this murder. Otherwise, why mention it?

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. What does all that have to do with the case at hand?

You are perfectly free to oppose civilian gun ownership, but you are
patently using this case as a pretext to bash gun owners.

Also, what parts of the following did you not grasp?:

"I am NOT excusing what he did, but he may actually be clinically mentally ill and not a just an
asshole."

&quot W)e all agree that 'attempted problem-solving by shooting the neighbors' is bad"

[Starboard Tack]

18. OK, fine. His possible impairment due to Lyme disease does not lessen the crime.

So, why bring it up if not to apportion some of the blame on the victims?
Where do you get the idea that I oppose civilian gun ownership? I support the right to own guns. I even support the right to carry when under a credible threat or engaged in a risky task, ike apprehending an armed suspect.
I am a big fan of reality testing and situational awareness.

[friendly_iconoclast]

19. You are correct; I should not have brought the deer feeding up

While it may or may not have set Zumberge off, it doesn't excuse his actions.

You support right to carry where permitted, I support it unless otherwise prohibited-
an important distinction.

[Starboard Tack]

20. That's OK. We now know where we stand. Not too far apart.

I upport carry when and where necessary, not where permitted. It could be anywhere, by anyone, as long s the need is real.
It's far more of a common sense issue with me than a legal/constitutional issue.

[Jenoch]

11. The victim was talking to his friend and co-worker on the

telephone not too long before the shooting. The friend suggested he not go outside. His girlfriend came home 20 minutes later and he went out the front door where she going to enter the house. She should have gone to the back door that was not within sight of the shooter's house across the street.

The shooter's son was arrested the night before for threatening the victim's son. That's why the shooter was unhinged. His son blamed the victim and his family for the lyme disease his father was enduring. Apparently, their dog also has lyme disease. They blamed the neighbors for feeding the deer.

[Jenoch]

21. The shooter's wife has now been charged

with aiding and abetting. She yelled at her husband to shoot their neighbor.

The shooter's older brother shot a cop to death in 1972. He was sentenced to life but only did 16 years. If somebody murders a cop today, they get life without the chance of release.