Gun related post here, feel free to avoid the territory

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

I have read and seen of various newscasts everywhere that George Zimmermann was acquitted. I've also read arguments from both sides on why the verdict was correct or not. This question/poll is NOT about that verdict or those charges.

My questions addressing Zimmermann's behavior/actions before the altercation during which Martin was killed:
- In your opinion, were any of Zimmermann's actions (under current Florida law) illegal? Which ones?
- In your opinion, should any of those actions those have been illegal and, if so, which ones?

Those who disagree with the existing verdict are urged to confine voting on the issues of:
- Does current Florida law need to be changed?
- Was procedure not followed in that Zimmermann was not charged correctly/completely?

21 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	A- Zimmermann broke no current laws, acted reasonably and Florida laws relating to any of his actions need no changes
	11 (52%)
	B- Current laws were broken by Zimmermann and he was not charged
	1 (5%)
	C- Zimmermann broke no current laws but acted unreasonably and Florida laws should be changed to make similar actions illegal
	6 (29%)
	D- Both B and C.
	0 (0%)
	E- Other, abstain... (feel free to add your two cents)
	3 (14%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[stone space]

1. Zimmerman gunstalked an unarmed Black kid with a bag of skittles.

Hunted him down and shot him dead.

Gunstalking should be illegal, because it tends to lead to murder.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

2. vote please

and thanks for the reply

[GGJohn]

3. Except that's not what happened. eom.

[stone space]

78. Bullshit. Zimmerman is a cold-blooded murder.

[TeddyR]

112. Yet he's not

Because a jury of his peers found that he broke no law. So he's not a murderer, though he did shoot and kill someone.

[stone space]

117. You are wrong. Zimmerman IS a murderer.

So he's not a murderer

[Lurks Often]

121. How many other people given a fair trial and found not guilty do you want incarcerated?

[Duckhunter935]

122. I guess you really do not know

How the law works

[NaturalHigh]

4. I'm not familiar enough with Florida law to say.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

13. Neither am I

but I was interested in some other POVs.

[virginia mountainman]

5. He followed the law..

"But" -- Acted very stupidly, the thing is, Martin was clearly in the right, up until the moment, he felt the need to climb on top of Zimmerman, and start pounding his head into the pavement.

That one mistake, turned George Zimmerman, from the aggressor, into the victim, and in the end clearly justified the shooting.

..You cannot retreat if your pinned to the ground, being pounded into the pavement..

[gejohnston]

6. nobody knows who was the first agressor

there is no very good evidence either way.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

14. I'll go out on a limb here

I think Zimmermann clearly acted unwisely and perhaps provoked the attack.
Were I carrying, I would be acting quite the opposite. I'd be overly cautious to avoid any and all possible altercations.

IMHO, not being wrong doesn't lead to being right.

[gejohnston]

17. I would say stupid

or as some jurors speculated that he was trying to answer the operator's "which way did he go". Maybe or maybe not. Dumb, but illegal.
Since it was night and raining, I concentrate on the road in front of me and not much else. Carrying or not, I wouldn't see a wet t shirt contest (I'm a straight guy) let alone what Zimmerman claimed he saw.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

18. I'm with you on all of that

[pablo_marmol]

19. Bingo.......and this is why I believe that Florida passed new legislation post Z

I recall hearing/reading that Florida passed legislation forbidding individuals carrying concealed firearms to behave in the manner of armed security guards. IOW -- if you want to keep an eye on/follow someone, you need to be a licensed security guard with an exposed firearm and a legitimate reason to be doing so.

I share your sentiments, d/i/s --- had a uniformed armed security guard politely questioned TM, we wouldn't have had the outcome we did.

[gejohnston]

20. I don't remember seeing that

but he wouldn't have been covered by that either because he wasn't. He was driving to some store and told the cops he saw TM looking in windows like he was casing houses or something like that. He wasn't driving around playing security guard or anything like that. The media did an excellent job on misreporting it.

What was introduced in the Florida leg was to remove civil immunity. It failed.

[pablo_marmol]

21. "He wasn't driving around playing security guard or anything like that."

Yeah, ge -- I'm aware of that. Looks like I'll have to dig around to try to find the story that I referred to.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

46. Let me know if you find anything on that

I'd be interested.

[Ghost in the Machine]

22. Zimmerman was the first aggressor, plain and simple. He was armed, playing self appointed

neighborhood watchman and stalked a black kid just because he didn't recognize him... *after* he was told by police dispatch to remain at his vehicle until an officer arrived.

I don't know if he really broke any current Fla laws, since I moved away from Miami in 1994, but I can say one thing... I'm 52 years old, right at 6'3", 220 lbs and disabled, but if some strange fucker is following me around at night when I'm minding my own business you can bet your ass I'm going to confront him and ask him what his problem is.

When I was much younger, around 21 or 22, I had a dumbass stick a .44 Magnum in my face because he thought I was trying to take his girlfriend from him. I had an 8-ball of coke and about a half a bottle of Jim Beam in me and felt 10 feet tall and bulletproof. I started pushing my forhead into the barrel of his gun and daring him to pull the trigger. I was watching hid eyes the whole time and could see that he was getting flustered. I kicked him in the nuts and when he doubled over I punched him in the temple and snatched his gun from him and knocked him to the ground with it. I stuck the barrel down his throat, thumbcocked it back abd said "let me show you how to do this boy". I pulled his head up off the ground by his hair then took the gun out of his mouth and shot it into the ground right beside his head. The blast and sound broke his ear drum because I saw the blood start running out of his ear. I took the rest of his bullets out of the cylinder and threw them as far as I could and pistol-whipped his ass then told him "you just had your one chance to kill me. If I EVER see you within 100 yards of me again I'm going to kill you just for the principle of it". I never saw him again either.

I know it's easy to sound like an internet tough-guy, but this is a true story. At the time, I was into martial arts, was 235 lbs of solid muscle and a bouncer at a biker bar. I also look back and know that things could have turned out a lot different and I wouldn't be here now to tell the story. I got lucky and ran into someone who thought a gun made him tough, but he was too scared to pull the trigger. Until I was almost 30 years old I was also an enforcer for a well known 1%er MC gang and had been shot at several times, hit once, shot back at some and hit a couple, been stabbed twice, cut a few times and have had pool cues and bar stools broke over my head and back. I'm lucky to still be alive, and glad I got out when I did. I moved 2 states away and started a new life because I had a kid on the way. My daughter was born when I was 30 and my son when I was 31. I took a vow of non-violence, except in case of self defense or defense of my family, and have lived as a peaceful old hippie ever since.

Ghost

[gejohnston]

23. He was not told to stay in the car

and dispatchers are not allowed to tell you to do anything. The prosecutors, however, did violate Florida law by with holding exculpatory evidence.

the definition of first aggressor is who throws the first punch or illegal act like putting a gun in someones face. There is no evidence to support the claim that Zimmerman did. If it existed, the prosecution failed to present it. In fact, they failed to present any evidence contradicted Zimmerman's self defense claim and went as far as asking the jury ignore the evidence and follow their hearts. One of the eye witnesses did give indications that it was actually Martin. Even the lead investigator, a prosecution witness, said they found no evidence that contradicted Zimmerman's claim. Meanwhile, I was sitting in the fourth row going "what the fuck is this?"

I wanted to see the racist POS that murdered a 12 year old, according to the pictures in the media, ummm swing shall we say. Then I learned that those were lies too. Those were lies from a PR firm Crump and Parks law hired to create political pressure for an arrest so they could make money from a wrongful death suit.

I started reading legal blogs like Talk Left and some with no ideology to see what I was missing. After the prosecution rested their case, I knew what the verdict was going to be, and I was pissed off. I wasn't pissed off at the system, but at the media who fucking lied to me. I was also pissed off at their POS governor, who I never liked anyway, for over riding the local DA by bringing in the very unethical Angela Corey as special prosecutor.

I sat through the entire trial first hand. Given the bullshit and dishonesty pushed by the media and pundits, I was pushed to complete cynicism. Nothing they wrote or said was true. In fact, it was such complete bullshit, I treat MSNBC and TYT the same as Fox: all fucking liars. I also treat Thom Hartman (who I was a big fan of before) the same as I do Bill O'Reilly: totally full of shit. He also knew the facts and chose to be dishonest for ideological loyalty. As far as I am concerned, he went from most trusted progressive pundit to dishonest lower than shit. As for the people who pushed the evidence free prosecution for financial and political gain, I have nothing but contempt. I agree with Alan Dershowitz, the prosecution was irresponsible and should be disbarred.

Stalk has specific meaning. Martin ran out of sight while Zimmerman was in the car. Zimmerman also claimed Martin was on someone's property, looking in windows like he was casing the place. This was an area were there were a lot of recent break ins and home invasions. BTW, where is no "watchman" there is no patrols. The guy was driving to the store.

Nothing he did would be illegal in any state that I know of, nor was it (according to the African American neighborhood watch coordinator) anything outside of their rules at that time.
Two other replies on the same subject:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=163891
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=163954
BTW, why the sudden interest in Zimmerman?
If you don't mind my asking: Is your username derived from the anime Ghost in a Shell?

[virginia mountainman]

33. SWING...

....And knock it out of the park!!

The media has caused so much pain for THEIR lies, simply for ratings... Look at the recent events in Ferguson MO, that were largely a product of the mass media pushing for ratings. The sad thing is, the people that believe the things they are spoon fed by them on the tv, and get upset and refuse to "reconsider their conclusions" when the truth comes out in court. Worse still is when they take it out on their neighbors.

[Ghost in the Machine]

57. "He was not told to stay in the car". When it first happened, that's what I read somewhere...

that he was told not to follow him, but to wait at his vehicle.

I sat in on a murder trial during a high school Civics/Government class back in 1980 in Tennessee that was racially motivated. An ignorant hick about 35 years old had shot a black door to door salesman just because the salesman was walking up to the guys house. You know what his defense was?? "All my life my daddy taught me that those people don't belong around here and if they come on the property to just shoot them". Didn't take long to come back with a guilty verdict for first degree murder. I was born and mostly raised in Miami. We moved to Tn when I was 13, and I moved back to Miami 2 weeks after I graduated in May of '81. I was in Florida City when Hurricane Andrew hit and wiped out everything. That's when I was able to move far away and start over with a new life.


BTW, why the sudden interest in Zimmerman?

It's not a sudden interest, I followed it a little from the start and have read about some of his other scrapes with the law since his first trial. I just never posted on it except for one time, I think, when I said he should be in prison. It might have just been on a poll. Other than that, I haven't had much else to say about it and didn't want to get into the 9000 threads about it.


If you don't mind my asking: Is your username derived from the anime Ghost in a Shell?

No it isn't... I've had others ask if it was the album by The Police, which I had never heard of. I derived it from an old hacker term "there's always a ghost in your machine somewhere", but used Ghost in the Machine instead of "your Machine.

Peace,

Ghost

[gejohnston]

60. still wrong

He was never told to wait in the vehicle. When the operator heard wind on the background, he asked if he were following him. Zimmerman answered yes, then told "we don't need you to do that." Like I said, operators are not allowed to tell anyone to do anything. The operator testified to that fact in court. Here is his complete testimony

Thanks for the personal history, but it isn't relevant here. There is no evidence that race was an issue. I take that back, yes I do think race was an issue, but not in the way you think. There is some anti Hispanic racism among the African American community in that part of Florida. Zimmerman is Hispanic.
I have been on a couple of juries, and have sat through this one. Like I said before, everything we both read was a complete crock of shit.

[Ghost in the Machine]

71. He was told that officers were already on the way, then Zimmerman said "he's running away now"

when dispatch asked which way he ran, that's when Zimmie started following him. That's when the dispatcher asked if he was following him and Zimmie said yes and he was told "we don't need you to do that". Now that may not had been a legal order, but Zimmie agreed to wait at his truck for the officers, then later changed his mind and told dispatch to just have the officers call hhim when they got there and he would tell them where he was. He decided to hunt Trayvon down. He had also told dispatch that Trayvon was walking towards him and had his hands in his waistband, then said he had something in his hands but couldn't tell what it was. He also said paraphrasing {there's something wrong with him, or he's on drugs or something}.

Original 911 call:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="

" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I agree most of what we read was a crock of shit. Only 2 people know the real truth as to what transpired before the shooting, but dead people can't tell their side.

I will politely agree to disagree with you because, as far as I'm concerned, being told that officers were on the way and "we don't need you to do that" (following him) means to wait at your vehicle until the officers arrive... even if it wasn't a lawful order. This is why I didn't get into all the threads about it when it happened, and this is the last I'm going to say about it. Zimmerman hunted Trayvon down, Trayvon may have confronted him... and shit went bad quickly. You can have the last word if you wish to...

Peace,

Ghost

[gejohnston]

72. even if the other were alive, doesn't matter

any conflicting evidence goes to the defendant. We still have three witnesses and forensics. There is no doubt Martin had Zimmerman in a ground and pound beating his head in on the sidewalk. There is little doubt Zimmerman was the one screaming for help.
No, it is not a legal order. "We don't need you to do that" is not an order as the operator said. There is no evidence Zimmerman wasn't walking back to his car when he was attacked.

will politely agree to disagree with you because, as far as I'm concerned, being told that officers were on the way and "we don't need you to do that" (following him) means to wait at your vehicle until the officers arrive... even if it wasn't a lawful order.

except that he was walking back to his vehicle when he was ambushed and attacked.

This is why I didn't get into all the threads about it when it happened, and this is the last I'm going to say about it. Zimmerman hunted Trayvon down, Trayvon may have confronted him... and shit went bad quickly. You can have the last word if you wish to...

There is no evidence to support the claim. The evidence (including Trayvon's phone dump) shows Trayvon as the initial aggressor. I know the phone wasn't admitted, but should have been and could have been a reversible error. I think he was in the bushes by Jayne Surdyka's house waiting for Zimmerman to walk back to his car. She said she heard the louder voice several minutes before the confrontation. The person with the deeper voice, possibly talking on the phone.

[braddy]

126. All you have to do is look at what Martin was doing when he was shot and what was happening

to Zimmerman at that moment.

The autopsy and photos and investigation tell us what was going happening at that moment.

[virginia mountainman]

131. That does not matter to some...

That is speaking in FACTS, not fiction.... They have very severe reactions when the facts, and THEIR fiction don't line up.

[stone space]

24. The Gunstalker was the first aggessor.

nobody knows who was the first agressor

When you stalk somebody with a gun, you're looking for trouble.

[gejohnston]

25. you have been lied to as well

there was no stalking. There was no order to stay in the car either. Stalking has a specific meaning, and it doesn't cover running to see where someone went after the police operator asked where he went. See my reply to Ghost in the Machine and the provided links.
First aggressor is legally who does something illegal and aggressive. There was no evidence that he did anything illegal in any state. I'm as liberal as the next person, but I refuse to wallow in dogma and blindly repeat what have been proven to be lies.

[stone space]

26. Following a kid with gun is Gunstalking. (nt)

[gejohnston]

27. you didn't have time to read my reply

and "gun stalking" is not a legal concept.

[stone space]

28. You support the murderous Gunstalker Zimmerman. I don't.

You'd like to see such Gunstalking made legal throughout all 50 states.

I wouldn't.

[gejohnston]

29. I support the facts and the truth

no matter where it falls. Those facts and truth are based on facts and evidence presented under oath and open to cross examination. In this case, it was prosecution witnesses showed that he was a guy getting his head beat in the sidewalk by a violent individual. I am indifferent to the people involved, including Zimmerman. I support the facts, truth, and the jury system. I also support rational and empirically based thought, something that you as a mathematician should understand. If not, then your students are being cheated.

I detest liars, frauds, racists, con artists, race baiters, ideologues, and demagogues. By not supporting the facts and the truth of the case, those are the people you are supporting. In my reply to GITM, I made my points and why I came to them quite clear. Unless you have something worth replying to, this is my last post on the subject, because I'm pretty sick of it.

[stone space]

30. I have never cheated my students. You are a bald faced liar.

something that you as a mathematician should understand. If not, then your students are being cheated.

[gejohnston]

31. I never accused you of anything

unless you are admitting to not supporting rational and empirically based thought.

[stone space]

32. You accused me of cheating my students.

This is simply unacceptable.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

34. your emotions are getting in the way

he never said you cheated your students. take a breath and read the post...

sP

[Fred Sanders]

35. You strongly implied, suggested, or inferred it, obviously, gejohn....Maybe an edit or an apology?

[petronius]

36. 2-5 to leave, if you're interested

On Mon Mar 30, 2015, 11:01 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I support the facts and the truth
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=164401

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Don't accuse people of cheating their students without evidence.

That's a highly uncivil personal attack, and is uncalled for here at DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Mar 30, 2015, 11:09 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There is no personal attack.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster did not accuse the other poster of "cheating his students". He said that a mathematician should understand "rational and empirically based thought" and that if a mathematician did not do so, that would be cheating his students. This alert is based on nothing but a gross misreading of the actual sentence structure.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I didn't bother to comment, but it was clear that there was no personal attack or accusation. Juror #4 said it very well...

[Fred Sanders]

56. So if was not a personal attack it was just an ad hominem attack on mathematicians? Still not cool.

[blueridge3210]

59. It's neither a personal attack

nor an ad hominem attack on all mathematicians. It was an observation that some people seem incapable of judging an event based on the actual facts and let their emotions rule their judgment. Framed against the other poster's repeated appeal to authority based on their claim to be a calculus teacher it highlighted the serious contrast between someone who professed to focus on facts and their repeated statements that have been shown to have no basis in facts.

[Fred Sanders]

61. Like I said, ad hominem.

[blueridge3210]

62. Um, no.

You might look up what that expression means; it in no way describes what the poster said. Highlighting the inconsistency between the self-proclaimed "calculus teacher's" appeal to authority based on their supposed profession and their repeated statements not supported in fact ("gunstalker murderer&quot is in no way an ad hominem attack.

[Fred Sanders]

63. Could be a strawman attack then? Imputing general incompetency from one dubious example?

[blueridge3210]

64. Um, no.

No one has misrepresented an argument by the alleged calculus teacher. The only thing the other poster has done is point out the inconsistency of appealing to authority as a calculus teacher while taking a position that is not supported by facts or evidence.

It's the functional equivalent of someone touting a 120+ IQ as proof of their knowledge about a topic and then making a statement about that topic that is not supported by the facts.

[beevul]

87. Look up the meaning of the word "if", Fred. N/t

[Lurks Often]

37. Here is a novel idea, discuss the actual laws and the case

instead of making up absurd terms like "Gunstalking"

Anyone with an open mind who followed the case closely realized that the physical & forensic evidence as well as the testimony of those who had no personal involvement with either Zimmerman or Martin supported Zimmerman OVERWHELMINGLY.

Zimmerman made any number of poor choices that night, but NONE of them were illegal under the laws of the vast majority of states in this country.

[blueridge3210]

38. But, then you cannot engage

in the "culture war" against firearm owners and make lame "appeals to authority" based on a self-reported status as a "calculus" teacher. No fun in that at all.

[Lurks Often]

39. We'll see if I get an answer at all from the calculuz teacher

On the off chance I do, I fully expect an answer that is not based on the laws or the actual case.

He still hasn't explained how he is going to keep firearms out of his classroom if the state he lives in changes the laws to allow the carry of firearms on campus.

[stone space]

40. What do my calculus classes have to do with Goerge Zimmerman's Gunstalking?

He still hasn't explained how he is going to keep firearms out of his classroom

[Lurks Often]

41. Yet again you avoid answering simple, direct questions

[stone space]

42. If George Zimmerman shows up in my calculus class armed, he's going to jail.

There's a simple, direct answer.

I'm not going to put up with that shit.

[Lurks Often]

44. LOL, Still not an answer

Why do you have such a problem answering direct questions?

[DonP]

48. Maybe he's one of those "Online" Calculuz teachers?

OTOH, aggressive obfuscation is a response all by itself.

[Lurks Often]

49. Probably still upset his GD post got locked as META within 15 minutes

[DonP]

50. Ooooh, I missed that

Sorry, I was busy being the "worst right wing troll in the Gungeon", (or was it on all of DU?) this weekend, well that and qualifying my concealed carry classes.

Did that GD post also use a "Z" instead of an "S" in all the words, or just a few?

[Lurks Often]

55. Here is the post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026436995

[DonP]

58. Hmmm? Maybe a new behavior pattern emerging - twice in a week now

When "those evil gun owners" don't agree with you ... and you can't refute or respond intelligently to their post, just call it a lie, as loud as you can in a friendly or safe haven area and maybe someone will believe "they done you wrong".

You don't get any advancement of your cause of course and you change no minds, but you get some sympathy and a shoulder to cry on.

Funny how getting a lock or post hide just makes them go off the deep end.

No lessons learned from it and they have to try and "get even" as fast as they can.

[Duckhunter935]

91. Hell he stalked me by PM

Kept calling me a liar even after I asked him to stop. Had to block his PMs and notify Skinner. I feel sory for him.

[Duckhunter935]

90. Iove it when he whines like that

He is not a thief when he leaves without paying his bill either.

[Duckhunter935]

89. Lol

[sarisataka]

47. Genuinely curious

If George Zimmerman shows up in my calculus class armed, he's going to jail

How? Citizen's arrest?
Why? Being putrid snail slime is an offense but not illegal.

[GGJohn]

68. What is it with you not being able to answer a question directly? eom.

[Duckhunter935]

92. Good question

[gejohnston]

7. someone who sat through the whole thing

and researched self defense laws here, there is no evidence that he violated any law anywhere, and he would have been acquitted or not charged in even most duty to retreat states.

[Duckhunter935]

8. "gun fanciers are still celebrating Zman walking free"

The other groups take from Hoyt.

killing Trayvon Martin.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172164331

I'm betting most see themselves in Zman, and know they could make the same mistake, or worse -- grab their gun and head out with the intent to harass/intimidate an unarmed kid, ready to take it to the limit.

I remember the gungeoneers -- well the ones who haven't been booted as right wing trolls -- had a thread going just months before Zman grabbed his gun and took off to show that kid a thing or two, after Zman had a big fight with his wife.

The thread was about what to do and say to police if you shoot someone so you beat the rap. Zman must have been reading.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12628616

I see they are being dishonest if not outright lying over there. Do you think the host will say anything to correct the facts?

I do not know enough about the laws down in Florida to make an educated statement on that issue. I think the verdict was probably correct in the end.

[GGJohn]

9. Damn!!!!

You beat me to it.
Was just getting ready to post that on this very thread.
It would seem that the OP got under his skin.

[Duckhunter935]

10. to bad he had to fail at facts 101

so who is celebrating Mr. Hoyt? Care to retract that statement, Mr. Hoyt?

[GGJohn]

11. When it comes to the firearm issue,

he fails every single time.

[Duckhunter935]

12. true, and he has a "safe haven"

Last edited Sun Mar 29, 2015, 10:24 PM - Edit history (1)

to get those falsehoods out. We can at least call them out here.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

15. re: "...laws down in Florida..."

I don't know enough to say either. However, as I said in #14, not being wrong doesn't lead to being right.

ETA- Re: host corrections, I don't think that's a host's responsibility. If I were the host I wouldn't.

[Duckhunter935]

16. very true

[stone space]

80. No, Zimmerman is a racist, gun-stalking, cold-blooded murderer.

I think the verdict was probably correct in the end.

[oneshooter]

86. Would you be willing to place

the noose around his neck.
And pull the lever?

Cause it sure sounds like it to me.

[stone space]

88. I am not a murderer.

Would you be willing to place

the noose around his neck.
And pull the lever?

Cause it sure sounds like it to me.

I don't believe in capitol punishment.

That's just a lie on your part.

Why do ammosexuals assume that others are as murderous as them?

That ASSumption says more about the ammosexuals than it does about normal folks.

I oppose the execution of George Zimmerman for the same reason that I oppose the execution of Charles Manson.

Why are you lying?

[beevul]

94. You murder logic with impunity quite frequently, hereabouts. N/T

[Straw Man]

95. Lies.

Would you be willing to place

the noose around his neck.
And pull the lever?

Cause it sure sounds like it to me.

I don't believe in capitol punishment.

That's just a lie on your part.

"Sounds like it to me" is a subjective opinion; therefore, by definition it can't be a lie.

[Duckhunter935]

103. That is your favorite word, lol

Your anseer to any question, yell LIE!

[Straw Man]

109. Who, me?

Your anseer to any question, yell LIE!

I think you're responding to the wrong post. Maybe my title line is causing some confusion.

[Duckhunter935]

110. Yep, should have been to Stoney

[oneshooter]

97. What lie?

It was just a simple question.

[Lurks Often]

98. How many other people given a fair trial do you want incarcerated?

You must have a long list of people you think should be in jail based strictly on your emotions.

[stone space]

100. Zimmerman is a racist cold blooded murderer, and his DU supporters are trolls.

[Lurks Often]

101. More personals attacks from you, just shows that you don't understand criminal law

and you didn't answer the question you were asked, which is typical.

[stone space]

104. How is that a personal attack? Folks who support cold-blooded murder are trolls.

More personals attacks from you, just shows that you don't understand criminal law

This is a simple statement of fact, not a personal attack.

[DonP]

107. Quick! You need to alert Skinner in ATA to all the Trolls on his website you've found!

I'm sure he'll give you a big reward for cluing him in. He can get rid of MIRT too, I bet.

He'll probably make you the official Zampolit for keeping gun trolls off DU and close the Gungeon for you.

He might even erase all your hides, multiple "vacations" and give you a cookie.

Just tell him you're a good friend of Iverglas and Mr. Benchley, that'll impress him.

[Duckhunter935]

111. Lol, he did when he was mad at me for posting his unwanted PMs

to me. Skinner basically laughed at him

[beevul]

118. Uh oh, what did I miss? N/T

[Duckhunter935]

123. Let me hunt down the posts

[Duckhunter935]

142. here, hasd to post down thread as he accused me of harrassment

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=192465

[beevul]

150. Thats rich.

Hes behaving like a bully cop...

Beating the piss out of a person while screaming extra loud so everyone within miles can hear "STOP RESISTING!!!".

[Duckhunter935]

151. And he posted an outright lie in this post I had to correct

with proof of his false statement. I do not expect any more replies but at least it is in the open for all to see.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=192555

[beevul]

115. *Snort*

Just tell him you're a good friend of Iverglas and Mr. Benchley, that'll impress him.

*snicker*

[Lurks Often]

108. Only he wasn't convicted

Last edited Sat May 7, 2016, 02:44 PM - Edit history (1)

So I'll ask again: How many other people given a fair trial and found not guilty do you want incarcerated? You must have a long list of people you think should be in jail based strictly on your emotions.

[TeddyR]

113. You know what else is a "simple statement of fact"?

Zimmerman was found not guilty by a jury, and thus is not a murderer. Do you agree that a jury found him not guilty?

[stone space]

116. No, Zimmerman IS a racist cold-blooded murderer.

...and thus is not a murderer.

[TeddyR]

119. Answer the question

Stone

[Lurks Often]

120. How many other people given a fair trial and found not guilty do you want jailed?

[Duckhunter935]

124. Lol, wrong again

I hope you have a better record at calculus, or your students should sue for malpractice.

[stone space]

134. WTF??? Why should my students sue me? How have I committed "malpractice"?

or your students should sue for malpractice.

My job is not an issue in this thread.

[Duckhunter935]

135. My post stated the reason

I think you can read. Good morning

[Eleanors38]

43. I voted "other." Zimmerman broke no current laws, and I'm not sure if the laws need...

to be changed, but he was ill-advised to act in the role of LEO, including being armed. He placed himself in a position of being confronted, whereas a good cop would have backed out sooner and called for assistance. I am not averse to both neighborhood watch programs and concealed-carry. But the two together are potentially dangerous when seen as an adjunct to trained police.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

45. ^^^ exactamundo

I am not averse to both neighborhood watch programs and concealed-carry. But the two together are potentially dangerous when seen as an adjunct to trained police.

Kind of like reloading and good cigar, they just don't go together.

[Agnosticsherbet]

51. It is not against the law for a white man to stalk and murder a black teenager wearing a hoodie

and armed with skittles, because we live in a racist nation.

It should be.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

52. What???

Murdering anyone of any race, with or without a hoodie should be and IS illegal.

[Agnosticsherbet]

53. I've been watching the courts for years, and in most cases such murders are unpunished.

Though on the books it may be against the law, those whose duty it is to protect the innoncent and prosecute those who murder them act is if it is not.

Our system works on a racist double standard.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

54. Thanks for your vote and opinion

There is a double standard.

[oneshooter]

65. Would you feel the same if the races were reversed? n/t

[Agnosticsherbet]

66. It isn't a feeling. It is a fact of modern life in the USA.

It is white privaledge at work.

[oneshooter]

67. Would you "feel" the same about this if the races were reversed.

If the black man had killed the white man under the same circumstances.

[Agnosticsherbet]

69. The races aren't going to be reversed. We are discussing reality not a fantasy novel.

White privaledge is a fact of life in racist America.
We need to open our eyes and recognize it so we can work to put an end to it.

A kid wearing a hoodie and armed with skittles was stalked and killed. He is not alone. It happens again and again.

[gejohnston]

70. you mean mixed race Hispanic privilege?

Last edited Tue Mar 31, 2015, 12:23 AM - Edit history (1)

Show evidence from the trial or anything other than some ideologue's imagination of anything you claim.

[Agnosticsherbet]

73. Check "White Priveledge."

Think about it.

[gejohnston]

74. Yeah

The term sounds like a creation of over privileged white kids and academics who have no clue about the real world feel privileged enough to tell African Americans on how to be black.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article1974786.html
African American defends himself from Hispanic and white attacker. Didn't go to trial, and rightfully so.

http://wreg.com/2014/11/25/salt-lake-cop-cleared-in-shooting-of-unarmed-white-man/
Black cop shoots white unarmed suspect in a city that is as white bread as it gets.

New York is one of the 16 duty to retreat states
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/roderickscott.asp

I thought about it. Speaking as a white person who didn't grow up in a nice middle class household
http://occupywallstreet.net/story/explaining-white-privilege-broke-white-person

[Agnosticsherbet]

75. Actualy it describes racism here in the USA.

A privaledge that we white people enjoy whether we like it or not. It is a symptom of a racist system.

Sometthing that hispanics, blacks, and other people suffer from because we live in a racist nation.

If you bothered to check it out, you would have understood.

[gejohnston]

76. I did check it out

and I do understand. I also have been on this planet for quite awhile and have been around the US and world. While racism still exists, there isn't as much as some on the campus fringe seem to think. Also, not all racists are white. Out of the other countries I have lived in, we are the least racist. Want to see a racist society? Go live in Japan or South Korea for awhile. A black Canadian didn't have to deal with the Jim Crow laws of the US South. However, Japanese Canadians still landed up in "relocation camps" just like Japanese Americans. Then there is the cultural genocide of First Nations peoples, complete with the same abusive boarding schools. Up there, being aboriginal is like being black here.

There is also a gender difference too. While true, blacks are more likely to get a stiffer sentence than whites for the same crime (although I would like to see if that is the same for a middle class or wealthy black vs a "trailer trash" white.) However white women get the lightest sentences, followed by black women. White men get stiffer sentences than black women. Black men, get totally screwed over on the race and gender. The system is also sexist, and it works both ways.

Racism and other bigotry exists in every society. Yes, we are worse than some nations, better than others. Mostly, we are about the same.

[stone space]

77. It amazes me just how much support Zimmerman has in this forum.

[mackdaddy]

82. Zimmerman was and is a Dumbass in my opinion...

It is just that his actions in the incident with Martin were not illegal per the official facts presented in the trial, and the findings of the jury.

The facts as presented at trial by both sides:
Martin walking through neighborhood in rain - Legal
Zimmerman following Martin and calling 911 - Legal, probably dumbass
Martin Assaulting Zimmerman for following him, knocking him to ground - Illegal
Martin sitting on Zimmerman administering a continuous beatdown - Illegal
Zimmerman using licensed weapon to defend from life threatening attack - Adjudicated Legal
Martin killed - Tragic

I do not "support" Zimmerman. I find most the published accounts of his actions before and after this shooting demonstrate him being a dumbass. He is a blemish on the reputation of the vast numbers of citizens with CCW permits.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

125. thanks for your vote

[ManiacJoe]

128. Zimmerman gets no support in this forum.

However, those who claim the support exists confuse knowledge of the facts with such support.

[stone space]

133. In what other DU group would 62% of respondents say Zman acted reasonably?

Zimmerman gets no support in this forum.

However, those who claim the support exists confuse knowledge of the facts with such support.

Hell, if this OP had Zimmerman's name in it, and wasn't posted undercover to limit responses to this group, Zimmerman wouldn't get 62% support.

In what world does claiming that Zimmerman acted reasonably not count as support?

[Lurks Often]

140. How many other people given a fair trial and found not guilty do you want incarcerated?

[Duckhunter935]

145. Funny, never could get an answer

[Lurks Often]

147. Because it would show his complete lack of understanding

of the facts of the case, criminal law and the concept of beyond a reasonable doubt.

[gejohnston]

146. If the case hadn't been politicized,

Everyone who looks at the actual facts of the case and the law. BTW, you never answered my question about the guy that shot the attacking racist. Almost everyone would call that reasonable based on the facts.

[stone space]

155. Claiming that Zimmerman acted reasonably is an opinion, not a fact.

However, those who claim the support exists confuse knowledge of the facts with such support.

53% of respondents to this poll claim that Zimmerman acted reasonably.

That's not a fact, that's an opinion.

And a rather stupid and murderous opinion at that.

[Lurks Often]

156. The jury disagreed with you, as do most people who understand criminal law

[gejohnston]

157. there is an objective standard for reasonableness

The principle of Reasonableness is really an umbrella principle that applies to each of the previous four. The issue here is whether your perceptions and conduct in self-defense were those of a reasonable and prudent person under the same or similar circumstances, and possessing the same specialized skills and knowledge (if any). If your actions were not reasonable by this standard, any claim to self-defense fails.

So, if you believed the other person was an aggressor, but a reasonable person would not have believed this, you did not act in lawful self-defense. Similarly if you believed that the threat was imminent but a reasonable person would not have, or that the force you used was proportional to the threat but a reasonable person would not have, or that you could not have avoided the threat but a reasonable person would have . . . in each case the claim to self defense fails.

It is within the contours of the principle of Reasonableness that the attacker’s prior acts and/or reputation might be made relevant at trial, even if they were unknown to you at the time. The reasonableness of your perception that the attacker’s behavior was threatening would be strengthened if your attacker had a reputation in the community for behaving in threatening manner. Similarly, the reasonableness of your perception that the attacker was acting in an irrational and frightening manner would be buttressed if your attacker habitually used intoxicants, and was in fact intoxicated at the time of the attack.

http://lawofselfdefense.com/the-five-principles-of-the-law-of-self-defense-in-a-nutshell/

In this case, Martin moved from behind the bushes in front of Jayne Surdyka's house and attacked Zimmerman. Zimmerman yelled for help for almost a minute while Martin sat on him and pounded his head in the sidewalk. That is according to forensics and two eye witnesses. That fits the definition of reasonableness as defined above.

[stone space]

79. Time to resave the list. I see that it is changing from last time I copied it.

A- Zimmermann broke no current laws, acted reasonably and Florida laws relating to any of his actions need no changes

10 (71%)

Abnredleg, shedevil69taz, Surf Fishing Guru, blueridge3210, Big_Mike, Straw Man, virginia mountainman, gejohnston, mog75, Duckhunter935

[gejohnston]

81. it is an empirical question

Last edited Sat May 7, 2016, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)

it has nothing to do with his not so good judgement that lead to the situation or any opinion of him personally.
did Jehrardd Williams violate a law? I do know instructors that use Williams and Zimmerman as examples of what to do and what not to do.
Williams did everything right.
http://www.nbc-2.com/story/28972473/prosecutors-rule-fatal-waffle-house-shooting-case-of-self-defense
http://www.westernjournalism.com/florida-law-enforcement-finds-black-man-shot-white-racist-in-self-defense/

[ileus]

83. Gunz and ammo in the hands are civilians is a bad thing.

[Eleanors38]

84. I voted "other." He broke no laws, but he blurred the line twixt neighborhood patrol...

...and regular LEO patrols and actions. I understand voluntary, organized watch programs don't allow for weapons, but there is nothing keeping someone from driving/walking around with a firearm. Laws which allow for carry affect the rights of over a million citizens; fundamentally changing the law to prevent a Zimmerman-like incident is unreasonable. If anyone has any grand legislative idea in this regard, bring it forward. But I can't think of one.

[stone space]

93. I would contend that the only reason why this poll scores majority support for Zimmerman...

...is that the title skews it towards a certain DU demographic well represented here in this group, so that the response rate of racists is much higher than it might be for a typical DU poll.

A poll not so skewed for racists by its thread title would likely have much different responses.

[Straw Man]

96. Are you suggesting ...

I would contend that the only reason why this poll scores majority support for Zimmerman...

...is that the title skews it towards a certain DU demographic well represented here in this group, so that the response rate of racists is much higher than it might be for a typical DU poll.

... that I am a racist? That the judge, jury, and defense attorneys in this case were all racists? What the hell, let's throw in the prosecutor too, shall we, since she "threw" the case.

I would like an honest and straightforward answer please.

[beevul]

99. Of course he is. Its not like its ambiguous.

No worries though. Sooner or later those who cross the line with the perverse enjoyment of doing so that I'm pretty sure everyone sees now, and has seen several times before, self embolden themselves without the buffer of self awareness and burn out with the fury of ten thousand white hot suns.

Its only a matter of time. The one in question has already made a few practice runs.

[Duckhunter935]

106. Many practice runs,

Only here due to the amnesty

[Duckhunter935]

105. He all but called me a racist

I asked him straight out if I was yes or no and as typical he ran away scared and called me a liar

[TeddyR]

114. Are you calling everyone who responded to the poll

A racist? That's a pretty serious accusation here on DU.

[Big_Mike]

130. "The responce rate of racists"

How in the world can you be a mathematician, yet fail logical thought progression is such a grand manner? How is it that you can make such blanket assumptions regarding the thought patterns and motives of persons whom you have never met? I shudder at the thought that you are representative of the faculty of today's Academia.

My child attends UCLA, and she has stated that some of her Profs and TAs have such logic fails in her Poly Sci and Soc classes, but that is to be expected, given Politics and Sociology as subject matters. Both are, in my view, completely subjective for each person. Perhaps one can determine objectively whether or not a given policy is efficacious, but otherwise I do not believe that the study of either is measurable, unlike the hard sciences. How in the world can a teacher of the logic of mathematics be so utterly bereft in his or her observation of society and how people think and act?

Yet it seems you want to make blanket statements regarding how entire groups of people think. You deem me a racist based solely upon how I comment and vote on a couple of polls? How utterly contemptible you must view a vast number of the adult (age 18+) US population. According to the Census Bureau, there are 245+ million adults in the US with somewhere between 80-125 million owning firearms, depending upon your source material. Rather hubristic of you to ascribe motives to all those folks, don't you think? And to call that many people such belittling things such as Ammosexual? You work in a field littered with giants such as Euclid, Pythagoras, Newton, Gauss, et al. It must be soul crushing to be so mentally limited in such a gifted field.

But I am reacting to your listing of me, and your ascribing of me as a racist. I believe there is one race: the human race. Individuals are good, bad, evil, saintly, and everything in between, depending upon their own viewpoints. Personally, I served in the Army for over 18 years, and I only saw the uniform. The melanin content of the individual is not worth noting. What is worth noting is the individual effort and character displayed by the person. I agree or disagree with them based upon their actions and efforts. If they laid back and preferred to let others do the difficult, dirty, or dangerous work without helping, I did my best to see that they returned to their Home of Record to afflict their friends and neighbors, not drag down the performance of the unit, or endanger other troops or civilians.

Pain in the ass? Most assuredly. Prick? Occasionally, as the situation merits. Racist??? Not ever.

You sir? I'll not besmirch this board with a direct statement of what I think of your character. Be advised, however: I hold the thought processes of a late stage syphilitic in higher esteem than I do yours.

In the late 18th century, Samuel Johnson held that "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." Today it seems rather to be that Academia has replaced Patriotism as the scoundrel's refuge.

[stone space]

132. WTF??? Does it make you feel superior to call me "mentally limited"?

It must be soul crushing to be so mentally limited in such a gifted field.

What's up with the personal insults?

And how did my personal employment even become an issue here in this thread?

WTF???

[Duckhunter935]

137. You are the one that all but called me and others racist

I will give you another opportunity

Simple question, do you believe I am a racist, YES or NO?

[stone space]

138. Stop harassing me.

Simple question, do you believe I am a racist, YES or NO?

You have chased me all over this board, both publicly, and via DU email, demanding that I declare you a "non-racist".

I'm getting sick of your continued harassment.

Whether it's your obsession with being declared a "non-racist", your obsession with my real world employment, saying that I should be fired from my job, your bogus claims of "mal-practice", or your accusations of me being a thief, this stalking from thread to thread is really getting old.

[Lurks Often]

139. Why are you against free speech?

This is a public discussion board, if you post something, people are free to respond. No one forces to post you here. So no, you are NOT being harassed. I presume this false feeling of being harassed is why you ran to the Ask the Administrators forum again? I notice you didn't get a response to your last post there.

If anything YOU are the one who harasses people: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=185304

[Duckhunter935]

143. I expect he will run away again

as the truth has been exposed

[Lurks Often]

144. He has a strong aversion to facts and the truth

[Duckhunter935]

148. Yet, I am the harrasser, lol

[Duckhunter935]

141. Oh, you want to go there again, OK

I NEVER sent you unsolicited DU mails, all I did was respond to yours that you sent me. I asked you to stop and you would not.

For everyone to see, here is the DU mail exchange YOU started with me that was not solicited by me, that SIR is HARRASSMENT

all right, let's get this in the open. your unsolicited mail

stone space
You win. I'm out.

And don't play games.

You did check and you don't want to admit that I was backing you up.

My reply...

I did look and I know you called me a racist and a lier. That is sickening and please do not mail me anymore. I am tired of your insults directed at me. It is best to just post in open forums. Good night
> And don't play games.
>
> You did check and you don't want to admit that I was backing you up.
>
>
>
>

You responded even after I requested you stop.

You lie.

>
> I did look and I know you called me a racist and a lier. That is sickening and please do not mail me anymore. I am tired of your insults directed at me. It is best to just post in open forums. Good night
> > And don't play games.
> >
> > You did check and you don't want to admit that I was backing you up.
> >
> >
> >
> >

My response back....

I see you can not comply with a simple request to stop mailing me but go further and call me a lier. All you have to do is say I am not a racist. Funny how you can't. If you keep sending me insults, I will forward these to the administrators. Please do not send me any more mail unless it is to say I am not a racist. Once again, good night.
> You lie.
>
> >
> > I did look and I know you called me a racist and a lier. That is sickening and please do not mail me anymore. I am tired of your insults directed at me. It is best to just post in open forums. Good night
> > > And don't play games.
> > >
> > > You did check and you don't want to admit that I was backing you up.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

You responded once again even after I requested you stop...

Why do you feel the need to try to force others to declare that you are no9t a racist?

You do realize just how bizarre that is, don't you?

My response back requesting you stop...

Because you said I was , I am now going to send an email to skinner that you are stalking me. Have a good night

your response..

No I didn't. that is a lie.

My final mail to you..

Blocked your mail for the spam you keep sending after I told you to stop

After that last mail I sent a mail to Skinner to inform him of your repeated contact via mail even after I requested you to stop. I also blocked you from sending me any more mail as I think that is the best way to diffuse the situation. The facts are now out in the open for all to see. I hope you have a great day, sir.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=185304

Your question in ATA
Is the posting of private emails acceptable at DU?

Skinner's response
Depends what you mean by "acceptable".
I don't personally approve of the practice. But if someone does it there is no guarantee that a jury will find the practice to be inappropriate.

My advice is that people refrain from sending DU Mail messages that they don't want posted publicly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12599446

By the way this is an open board and I will respond to any post you or others make as I see fit. And once again I see you will not answer that simple question. So yes, it does appear you think myself and others are racist. You just avoid that word and are coy on how you present it.

[beevul]

149. Oh good grief.

Stop harassing me.

You behavior is like that of a bully cop beating the piss out of a person all the while screaming stop resisting.

I'd get your self awareness checked if I were you, since its bleedingly obvious to everyone here, what you're doing.

[Duckhunter935]

136. Wow, we'll stated

[Big_Mike]

152. Thank you

I try to be even handed and listen to others' points of view, but to be called out as a racist really burns me. Additionally, his refusal to acknowledge other peoples' views is irritating beyond belief. This racist call out seems to be the common attack of those either student or faculty in the education system at this time, another fact I find appalling.

He avows himself a mathematics teacher at collegiate level. That means he is supposed to look at an equation or series of equations and determine the correct answer. That requires use of both logic and intellect. The logical leaps he takes would make Olympic gymnasts envious, and an honest intellect would never make some of the statements he has made.

Overall, his comments frustrate and just plain irritate me. So I hit the SMITE key a couple of strokes.

At this point, I am frankly surprised I haven't been blocked for being a bully, but did try to be essentially polite in my response.

[Duckhunter935]

153. Polite seems to be the way, I have found

Post the truth and he runs away. Basically being called a racist by him is what really passed me off and I could not let him get away with it.

[Big_Mike]

154. Likewise, and I understand completely. n/t

[tularetom]

127. I'm torn between A & C

It's clear that Zimmerman broke no laws, but from my vantage point, with my limited knowledge of the incident, it's not possible for me to determine whether or not he acted "reasonably". Even if I were to believe he did not act reasonably, that would not be sufficient cause for me to believe the law should be changed.

[ManiacJoe]

129. Zimmerman's actions were not illegal and were not reasonable.