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Sat May 9, 2015, 08:20 PM

should cops lose Glocks

or actually teach them the four rules?
The underlying problem with these pistols is a short trigger pull and the lack of an external safety. In real-world encounters, a short trigger pull can be lethal, in part because a significant percentage of law enforcement officers — some experts say as high as 20% — put their finger on the trigger of their weapons when under stress. According to firearms trainers, most officers are completely unaware of their tendency to do this and have a hard time believing it, even when they’re shown video evidence from training exercises.

For more than 35 years, officer-involved accidental discharges with Glocks and Glock-like weapons have been blamed on a lack of training or negligence on the part of the individual cops. What critics should be addressing instead is the brutal reality that short trigger pulls and natural human reflexes are a deadly combination.

http://bearingarms.com/wrong-gun-popular-gun-law-enforcement-mistake/

My experience with Glock is zero. Any LE opinions, would an exposed hammer DA/SA be better?

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Sat May 9, 2015, 08:24 PM

1. I myself prefer a hammer I can physically see and a decocker and safety.

I wouldn't own a Glock, not because of the trigger safety, I just think it's an ugly gun.

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Sat May 9, 2015, 09:08 PM

2. I've carried one for 20+ years.

 

No problems; never heard of any in the field. I think the issue is training. We were always taught to keep out finger outside the trigger guard when clearing a room to avoid unintentional discharges.

Is there any data to show more unintentional discharges with Glocks as opposed to other weapons? Aesthetics aren't my thing; I'm not worried about looks as opposed to the "bang" when the trigger is pulled.

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Sat May 9, 2015, 10:19 PM

3. I believe the larger problem with glocks negligent discharges

 

Is the idiotic necessity to pull the trigger to tear the gun down...no magazine disconnect because of this stupid design flaw...

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Sat May 9, 2015, 10:32 PM

4. Doesn't explain the NYPD version....

http://eu.glock.com/english/options_triggerspring.htm


There is another non-military version the Glock seems to keep under wraps also involving their infamous trigger safety.

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Response to Historic NY (Reply #4)

Sun May 10, 2015, 01:26 PM

9. You would think that a city so concerned about "gun violence" would choose

 

a weapon with such a potential for misuse.

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Sat May 9, 2015, 10:35 PM

5. I dream of the day a hammer fired Shield is made.

The 2075 and PCR are both double stacks that would be wonderful sized if slimmed down to a single stack.


The bigger problem above and beyond LEOs are the thousands sold to new gun owners that only know to walk into the LGS and say "I want to buy a glock, where are they?"

These folks then take their new gun home, drop it in a purse, or stuff it down their pants. For a select few eventually their lack of firearms knowledge catches up with them. They leave their pistol in the Wal-Mart shitter, Their kid pulls it out of a purse from among the makeup and hand lotion. They drop it when bending over...maybe they get lucky and only shoot a hole in their floor.

They buy the glock because the salesmen convinces them they'll die if they have a manual safety. Or they convince them they're too stupid to shoot/operate a SA/DA semi-auto.

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Response to ileus (Reply #5)

Sat May 9, 2015, 11:14 PM

6. My brother carried a

I noticed that many of the modern Walthers have the same drawback as the Glock minus the field stripping.

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2015, 07:45 AM

7. The tendency to touch the trigger seems to be universal.

I've read multiple articles in gun magazines about this tendency in all kinds of people.

If it's perceived as a trigger pull issue, then the only solution would be to go to either a double-action-only handgun (or equivalent trigger weight), or a traditional double/single action handgun.

No single-action guns, no safe-action guns. Manual safety guns like the 1911 don't help one the gun is drawn; disengaging the safety is part of the action of drawing and presenting the gun.

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2015, 10:44 AM

8. It's a training issue

 

Most of the modern guns being made and issued to the police have a similar set up to the Glock. I owned a Glock 21 in 45 ACP and got rid of it because it was too big for my hands, so I am familiar with the gun.

The Glock was designed to replace the double action revolver, which did not have a manual safety either. The trigger pull can be safely modified on a Glock from a 3 1/2 lb trigger suitable for competition only, a 8lb trigger used by some police departments and 12lb trigger that NYPD is using, which may contribute to their poor hit/miss ratio in recent shootings.

The 5lb trigger is standard from the factory and probably is standard issue for most police and most of the other pistols on the market using the Glock trigger design have a similar trigger pull weight.

ALL guns should be verified that they are unloaded before disassembly. Pulling the trigger to release the striker spring is necessary to disassemble most striker fired guns and many guns can not be disassembled while cocked.

The problem with the DA/SA is that the trigger pull on the first shot will be between 12-15 pounds and the 2nd and all subsequent shots will be about 5 pounds so unless the training is very good, either the first or second shot will likely be a miss as the shooter transitions between the two trigger pull weights.

While I am not LE, I am a long time competitive shooter and many shooters use Glocks and other striker fired guns that use the Glock system and I can't remember the last time I saw a negligent discharge at a match.

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Sun May 10, 2015, 06:02 PM

10. How does the Glock's

lack of an external safety compare to the revolver's lack of external safety?

The problem tends to be a lack of training.

The requirement to pull the trigger to disassemble a Glock does not help any either.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #10)

Sun May 10, 2015, 06:48 PM

11. I think it has to do with trigger pull

for example, the DA trigger pull of Smith and Wesson model 10 (a common .38 revolver used in PDs) was something like 12-14#. The average Glock and similar pistols is closer to six.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #11)

Mon May 11, 2015, 12:07 AM

12. Glocks can be ordered with anything from a 4.75-lb to a 12-lb trigger.

The problem with a very heavy trigger is that it is exceedingly difficult to shoot accurately, especially in a lightweight gun (12 pounds is four or five times as much as a typical modern pistol weighs) so what you gain in preventing discharges from negligent trigger finger placement is lost in errant shots going downrange in the city. NYPD uses the ultra-heavy 12-pound trigger, and has one of the worst records in the nation for shooting innocent bystanders during shooting incidents.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/times-square-shooting-nypd-officers-shoot-two-innocent-bystanders-near-times-square/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/25/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-bullets-shot-all-nine_n_1830007.html

Ultra-heavy triggers can be shot accurately by someone with sufficient hand strength, skill, and lots of practice, but it is harder.

NY state police uses Glocks with 8-pound triggers, I think, as do some other agencies. The standard civilian Glock trigger is 5.5 pounds, with some non-LE Glock 34 target models coming in at about 4.75.

Some interesting commentary from trainer Larry Vickers:

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/trigger-pull-weight/

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Mon May 11, 2015, 12:24 AM

13. My ex-wife owned a Glock 26 with the stock 5.5-lb trigger,

shot it a fair amount, and carried it regularly (she had a Florida CCW license). She never once had a negligent discharge with it. I got to shoot it some myself, so I do have some experience on the platform.

My experience with Glock is zero. Any LE opinions, would an exposed hammer DA/SA be better?

I'm not LE, but I've shot various Glocks, I shoot a striker-fired FN 9mm with a trigger comparable to a Glock (5.5 lb), and I carry a compact DA/SA (S&W 3913 Lady Smith), so I do have some frame of reference. I'll point out that a DA/SA will be considerably lighter on the second shot through the eighteenth shot than a Glock will; typical SA trigger pull on a DA/SA is typically 4-5 pounds with a very short takeup, much shorter than a Glock. So if you have officers who negligently rest their fingers on the trigger, a DA/SA is going to lead to more ND's than otherwise, methinks. Manual safeties aren't a cure-all either, since if the gun is out and pointed, the manual safety will be off.

It is possible to train shooters to keep their finger off the trigger until they are ready to shoot, and most officers have no problem doing so, especially those who come from a post-1970s shooting background and grew up with the Four Rules ingrained. One of the surest signs of a gun enthusiast is that if you hand them a power drill, Windex bottle, or gas pump nozzle, they'll index their finger straight alongside the trigger until they're ready to use it.

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Response to gejohnston (Original post)

Mon May 11, 2015, 09:39 AM

14. It's a training issue.

I really like the Glock platform as a fighting gun. If I ever give up my 1911 it will be for a Glock 19.

Proper training and a clear understanding of the force continuum will get you much further in the safety department than dropping money on a pistol that is harder to shoot under any circumstance.

The biggest danger I see with Glocks is accidental discharges when re-holstering. Then again I knew a Deputy who had the same issues with his Colt Python revolver. Kaboom!!! These days we call it getting "Glocked" or "Glock Leg". Again, it's a training issue.

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