NRA MEMBERS WANT TRAINING FOR CONCEALED CARRY GUN OWNERS

[Nasty Jack]

Requiring firearms training for concealed carry gun owners would be a step in the right direct except the concealed carry law itself should be banned in the U.S. My point is based on one simple fact. In Arizona if you are not a felon and have a warm body you can buy a gun and take it almost anywhere. No training. Yes, these cowboys can walk into the gun shop, purchase a handgun, and then walk around the streets with it brandished in a holster or hidden in a pocket. They claim it is for their safety but what these gun nuts really want to do is play vigilante. There are studies saying concealed carry saves lives but they are years old and even with the decrease in gun violence over the years there are still over 11,000 firearms related gun deaths each year. The sheer number of guns in this country--300 million--makes the idea of letting someone roam the streets with a hidden weapon plain dumb. But as an example of the lack of training that is prevalent, at least in the state of Arizona, two CC greenhorns at the attack of former Rep. Gabby Giffords in Tucson in 2011 attempted to come to the rescue to stop Jared Lee Laughner and almost shot each other. Laughner was stopped by one of the bystanders.

[littlewolf]

1. to get my CCW I had to take training.

we were required 8 hours of class room plus range time
we had 12 hours of class room plus range time.
I would have preferred longer for alot of the students.
I was very comfortable with the system I was using
but I had 20 years in the military, 10 years DOC and
at the time 8 years working as a DoD contract security.
other folks in the class - not so much.
more training is always better.

[Eleanors38]

2. Well, Nasty, this state of affairs is squarely in the gun-banners' collective lap...

Since these prohibitionists have made gunz into a culture war, and one side has been left argueing with the Anti Saloon League for C Grade office space, you are not going to see much in the restriction of 2A rights. That is "one simple fact."

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. Dude, seriously.

Your commentaries are atrocious. You get so many basic, fundamental concepts and facts incorrect. I haven't read everything you've written at DU but I have yet to see an OP from you that didn't contain some fatal flaw in its argument.

First was your OP conflating GDP with total national income.

Then came your OP making it appear as if it was Boehner, rather than a Capitol Hill LEO that left the loaded gun in Boehner's bathroom.

Then we have you OPs in this group including this one where you confuse the term "brandished" and "in a holster" when discussing concealed weapons.

Then there's this --

The sheer number of guns in this country--300 million--makes the idea of letting someone roam the streets with a hidden weapon plain dumb.

How? This is argument by assertion with no underlying explanation.

This group is made-up of people who can site technical details, case law, history and personal experience. If you don't step up your game you are going to be chewed to bits.

[sarisataka]

4. Gon controllers: trust us

The guide spells out how to talk about gun control and when to press the issue, the best time being in the wake of a publicized shooting. For example, it calls on gun control advocates to speak out, "don't wait" for the facts, after a shooting like Martin's heightens awareness of the issue.

"The debate over gun violence in America is periodically punctuated by high-profile gun violence incidents including Columbine, Virginia Tech, Tucson, the Trayvon Martin killing, Aurora, and Oak Creek. When an incident such as these attracts sustained media attention, it creates a unique climate for our communications efforts," said the guide.

"A high-profile gun violence incident temporarily draws more people into the conversation about gun violence," added the talking points. "We should rely on emotionally powerful language, feelings and images to bring home the terrible impact of gun violence," said the guide, which also urged advocates use images of scary looking guns and shooting scenes to make their point.

[petronius]

6. Sure, but the garbled anecdote about the bad thing that didn't happen--but

totally could have! Seriously! Just wait until next time!--that was pretty compelling, I thought...

[ileus]

8. He won't even get the hits that guy from Italy used to.

[Nasty Jack]

13. Back at you

First, have no idea what you're talking about in my article on sharing the wealth. Didn't even mention GDP. Maybe all those big numbers just confused you.

Second, I was wrong about Boehner leaving the gun and admitted it several times.

Third, apparently you haven't been to Arizona where these cowboys walk around everywhere (including bars) yes, with guns in their holsters and "brandishing" them to those who believe in gun control. Where have you been?

And re. my 300 million guns on the street comment, for gun related murders, the U.S. has by far the highest of all developed countries in the world, four times as many gun-related homicides per-capita as do Turkey and Switzerland. With almost 89 guns per 100 residents in the U.S., only a fool would deny the possibility this has something to do with America being the most gun violent nation in the world.

And don't dictate to me what this group is made up of unless you have plans to try and blacklist me for telling the truth.

[gejohnston]

15. just a few things

with guns in their holsters and "brandishing" them to those who believe in gun control. Where have you been?

Have they been criminally charged? If not, why not? Are you redefining brandishing instead of the accepted legal definition?

of all developed countries in the world, four times as many gun-related homicides per-capita as do Turkey and Switzerland. With almost 89 guns per 100 residents in the U.S., only a fool would deny the possibility this has something to do with America being the most gun violent nation in the world.

but using "developed" you are cherry picking to an almost arbitrary term. Especially since every "gun control believer" has yet to explain what economics have to do with it. Also, we are not the most "gun violent nation" nor are we the most violent. When you use the GINI index that compares wealth inequality, we are actually more like Mexico than Switzerland.

[oneshooter]

16. "Brandish" has a legal definition, especially in regards to firearms.

Your apparent "definition" of brandishing is not the legal one.

You might consider the use of a Websters Dictionary before posting further.

It could avoid some future embarrassment.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. Actually, I live in an area with a prominent carrying population.

Again, you might want to check your facts before posting your thoughts.

[Nasty Jack]

21. Apparently you just can't read, or, if you can, you have absolutely no comprehension.

[friendly_iconoclast]

22. She comprehends the meaning of the word 'brandishing' far better than you do

For a purported 'legal professional', your insistence upon acting like Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty...

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

...and ascribing a meaning found nowhere in law is rapidly eroding what little remains of your credibility

[Lizzie Poppet]

30. While I despise those inane penis/firearm analogies as much as anyone...

...perhaps this is an exception:

To constitute "brandishing," you have to take it out and play with it.

[beevul]

23. With your poor track record of word usage in this thread...

With your poor track record of word usage in this thread, you don't have any business criticizing anyone elses.

See: brandish(ing)

[ileus]

5. Blood in the streets!!! Blood in the streets!!! LOL....

Emergency Emergency.....blood, guts, and gore.

Or not.

[Big_Mike]

18. I remember the show "Emergency"

I always thought the nurse (Julie London) was hot.

[ileus]

19. I remember it also, I couldn't have been more than 6 or 7...

Ha....72-79.

I remember an episode where a guy swallowed a pop can tab. That's about it...

[gejohnston]

20. So did Bobby Troop

the guy that played gray haired doc. He married her. I thought she was hot too.
I loved that show.

[DonP]

24. IIRC, He also wrote Route 66

And Julie London made one of the first recordings of it, followed by Nat King Cole and many others.

[sarisataka]

7. "But as an example"

It is a piss-poor example

But as an example of the lack of training that is prevalent, at least in the state of Arizona, two CC greenhorns at the attack of former Rep. Gabby Giffords in Tucson in 2011 attempted to come to the rescue to stop Jared Lee Laughner and almost shot each other

Yet in the chaos and confusion, the untrained carriers did not shoot each other or anyone else, as we have so often been assured would happen at any shooting or car backfire. Instead they were able to determine the situation was under control and no further force was needed.

Pretty damn good for greenhorns with no training. Maybe they could teach police to have such restraint.

[DonP]

9. Wonder what he's doing to make all this happen?

He wants to ban CCW, magazine limits, AWB, blah, blah, blah and the usual Balderdash Plus AND HE REALLY, REALLY MEANS IT!

Haven't seen much about his activity in the real world to make all or any of this happen?

Maybe I just missed his call for more petitions to repeal CCW in his home state and his running count of signatures on his own petitions?

Maybe he tithes to Everytown, MDA or Brady?

He's so dedicated, that I'm sure he does more than just post poorly written and misspelled rants on a blog no one reads.

[beevul]

10. They have these things called paragraphs...

It would be great if you started using them.

[clffrdjk]

11. You lost all of the support you were trying to carry in, with the first sentence.

Requiring firearms training for concealed carry gun owners would be a step in the right direct except the concealed carry law itself should be banned in the U.S.

Boom did you feel that? It was all the people that might have been willing to work with you turning around and walking away.

My point is based on one simple fact. In Arizona if you are not a felon and have a warm body you can buy a gun and take it almost anywhere. No training.

What did you expect, we have all seen the abuses of a may issue system, this is the obvious backlash.

Yes, these cowboys can walk into the gun shop, purchase a handgun, and then walk around the streets with it brandished in a holster or hidden in a pocket.

You forgot about the background check

They claim it is for their safety but what these gun nuts really want to do is play vigilante.

Care to back that one up? And the study better be recent.

There are studies saying concealed carry saves lives but they are years old and even with the decrease in gun violence over the years there are still over 11,000 firearms related gun deaths each year.

Are the studies incorrect? Are there new studies showing otherwise? How many of those deaths involved a person legally carrying? You should probably exclude the justifiable homicides just to get a more accurate representation.

The sheer number of guns in this country--300 million--makes the idea of letting someone roam the streets with a hidden weapon plain dumb.

How does that work exactly? Why does the number of guns in the US make it dumb for people to defend themselves?

But as an example of the lack of training that is prevalent, at least in the state of Arizona, two CC greenhorns at the attack of former Rep. Gabby Giffords in Tucson in 2011 attempted to come to the rescue to stop Jared Lee Laughner and almost shot each other. Laughner was stopped by one of the bystanders.

By almost shot each other you mean that they both took the time to assess the situation and found that neither needed to fire a single round? How would training have improved that response?

[Straw Man]

12. Um ...

Yes, these cowboys can walk into the gun shop, purchase a handgun, and then walk around the streets with it brandished in a holster or hidden in a pocket.

I think you're supposed to take it out of the holster to brandish it.

There are studies saying concealed carry saves lives but they are years old and even with the decrease in gun violence over the years there are still over 11,000 firearms related gun deaths each year.

Not to mention all the gun deaths that aren't firearms-related ...

The sheer number of guns in this country--300 million--makes the idea of letting someone roam the streets with a hidden weapon plain dumb.

Wait -- you mean someone is roaming the streets with a hidden weapon? Doesn't he know that there are 300 million guns in this country? We have to find that man before he commits a non sequitur!

[benEzra]

14. Here in NC,

I had to take an 8-hour class on NC self-defense law, pass a Federal background check, state background check, FBI fingerprint check, mental health records check, and demonstrate competence with a handgun on a shooting range, in order to obtain a carry license. Yet you would take away my own license just as readily as you'd take an Arizona resident's right to carry away from her, which shows that it's not really gun-owner training that is your goal here.

BTW, Arizona's law allowing concealed carry for lawful purposes without a license was passed in imitation of Vermont. Vermont has never required a license to CCW and has always had one of the lowest rates of violence in the nation.

[clffrdjk]

25. are you really going to let me tear apart your whole op without any response?

[Travis_0004]

26. If studies show it saves lives, it is a good thing

Can you disprove the study?

[ileus]

27. I preformed 300 rounds of training on the CZ75 and Shield yesterday.

[Shamash]

28. Nasty Jack needs to try harder

I took one for the team and went to his blog. Of the 24 stories on the front page (going back about 2 weeks) he has a total of 6 comments, and of his gun control screeds, he has a total of 1 comment. Which means despite spamming DU with his blog rehashes, his personal blog still has not managed to reach even Flamin Lib's level of irrelevance. And he's been trying since 2011...

Hopefully Nasty Jack will soon realize that he's not going to get any extra traffic from here and go find an audience more...intellectually suited to be receptive to what he is peddling.

[Lizzie Poppet]

29. "They claim it is for their safety but what these gun nuts really want to do is play vigilante."

Ah, yes...tele-psychoanalysis. A commonly-employed psychiatric technique...by clueless amateurs with a transparent agenda.

[Duckhunter935]

31. Please kindly take the advice from the host

in the other group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12628881#post2

Posting in ALL CAPS is internet short-hand for shouting, and generally considered quite rude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps

With the advent of the Bulletin board system, or BBS, and later the Internet, typing messages in all caps became closely identified with "shouting" or attention-seeking behavior, and is considered very rude. As a result, netiquette generally discourages the use of all caps when posting messages online. While all caps can be used as an alternative to rich-text "bolding" for a single word or phrase, to express emphasis, repeated use of all caps can be considered "shouting" or irritating. Its equivalence to shouting traces back to 1984 and traces back to printed typography usage of all capitals to mean shouting. Such poor netiquette has led to a number of employees being laid off for this particular reason.

But unlike that group our host generally does not block people.

Training is a good thing, the more the better. I think we need more accessible ranges at reasonable pricing to keep practiced.