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Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:16 AM

 

Guns in America: For every criminal killed in self-defense, 34 innocent people die

"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun." says Wayne LaPierre, the vice president of the National Rifle Association.

That's become the kernel of the NRA's response to recent mass shooting tragedies -- if only more people carried guns for protection, the thinking goes, then they would be less likely to be victimized by gun-wielding criminals.

“The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun,” LaPierre said

The challenge to that argument is that, data show, guns are rarely used in self-defense -- especially relative to the rate at which they're used in criminal homicides or suicides. A recent report from the Violence Policy Center, a gun control advocacy group, put those numbers in some perspective, and I dug up the raw numbers from the FBI's homicide data. Take a look:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/19/guns-in-america-for-every-criminal-killed-in-self-defense-34-innocent-people-die/

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Reply Guns in America: For every criminal killed in self-defense, 34 innocent people die (Original post)
SecularMotion Jul 2015 OP
hack89 Jul 2015 #1
SecularMotion Jul 2015 #2
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #5
villager Jul 2015 #7
krispos42 Jul 2015 #46
villager Jul 2015 #47
Shamash Jul 2015 #48
krispos42 Jul 2015 #49
villager Jul 2015 #50
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #51
villager Jul 2015 #52
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #54
villager Jul 2015 #56
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #63
Demit Jul 2015 #62
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #64
beevul Jul 2015 #75
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #79
villager Jul 2015 #81
beevul Jul 2015 #86
villager Jul 2015 #87
krispos42 Jul 2015 #55
villager Jul 2015 #58
krispos42 Jul 2015 #67
villager Jul 2015 #70
krispos42 Jul 2015 #71
villager Jul 2015 #72
MicaelS Jul 2015 #65
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #66
hack89 Jul 2015 #8
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #9
blueridge3210 Jul 2015 #33
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #3
SecularMotion Jul 2015 #4
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #6
SecularMotion Jul 2015 #10
DonP Jul 2015 #11
SecularMotion Jul 2015 #12
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #14
SecularMotion Jul 2015 #17
DonP Jul 2015 #31
oneshooter Jul 2015 #13
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #15
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #16
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #18
SecularMotion Jul 2015 #20
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #22
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #43
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #74
beevul Jul 2015 #76
pablo_marmol Jul 2015 #84
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #85
pablo_marmol Jul 2015 #83
Post removed Jul 2015 #19
SecularMotion Jul 2015 #21
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #23
Post removed Jul 2015 #24
SecularMotion Jul 2015 #25
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #26
Shamash Jul 2015 #27
beardown Jul 2015 #29
SecularMotion Jul 2015 #35
blueridge3210 Jul 2015 #36
SecularMotion Jul 2015 #38
blueridge3210 Jul 2015 #39
sarisataka Jul 2015 #42
Shamash Jul 2015 #45
sarisataka Jul 2015 #78
pablo_marmol Jul 2015 #88
beardown Jul 2015 #68
beardown Jul 2015 #30
Lancero Jul 2015 #61
Post removed Jul 2015 #69
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2015 #57
Eleanors38 Jul 2015 #28
Post removed Jul 2015 #32
NaturalHigh Jul 2015 #34
TeddyR Jul 2015 #40
ileus Jul 2015 #37
Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2015 #41
gejohnston Jul 2015 #44
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2015 #59
AtheistCrusader Jul 2015 #53
Straw Man Jul 2015 #60
spin Jul 2015 #73
beevul Jul 2015 #77
Duckhunter935 Jul 2015 #80
pablo_marmol Jul 2015 #82
the band leader Jul 2015 #89

Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:25 AM

1. You are ignoring the three other possible outcomes of DGUs

You can support gun control and still be intellectually honest you know.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:33 AM

2. And you could comment on the article without attacking the messenger

 

or maybe you can't.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:36 AM

5. What are you viewpoints

 

At least he pointed out the flaws in the blog you linked to. You do not even bother to say anything on that topic, you just complain about people actually asking for your opinions.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:39 AM

7. The pro-gun side can't *not* attack the messenger. It's part and parcel of the personality matrix...

 

...evidently.

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Response to villager (Reply #7)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 05:37 PM

46. Your ever see Fred Sanders in action?

Don't make the haughty assumption that only "ammosexuals" are impolite.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #46)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 05:39 PM

47. Not only, but mostly.

 

As a "Grabber/Controller," one comes to expect name calling rather than discussion now.

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Response to villager (Reply #47)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 05:51 PM

48. Here's a challenge for you

 

Come up with a gun control argument based on liberal principles that you are willing to apply consistently and proportionately on other matters of rights, privileges, laws and preventable harm, and we can actually discuss the merits of your proposal. It would be a big improvement over the factually dubious assertions, cherry-picked data, stereotyping, double standards, demonization, propaganda, logical fallacies and cut & paste that are the only things we ever see from the pro-control side.

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Response to villager (Reply #47)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 05:56 PM

49. Neither of us do that, I think, which is good.

And something I respect about you.

The difficulty, in part, comes from trying to create a brief, common name for the sides of the argument, and we're not doing well with that.

"We" as a nation, I mean.

Some people on DU think gun ownership should be a tightly-regulated privilege extended by the government. They don't want civilian ownership of firearms except for a very few, and very justifiable, reasons, and the guns to be owned also under tight regulation. These people could be reasonably called "anti-gun".

Past that , there is a broad spectrum of opinions that defy easy phrasing, so we get "hoplophobe" and "ammosexual" and others from a fairly long list of names, particularly when in an echo chamber or when things get emotional.

And making assumptions about other people's ultimate motives makes insults even easier to hurl.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #49)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:03 PM

50. Well that's a thoughtful post, Krispos42

 

I appreciate a willingness to think about the two "poles" that way.

If "my" side can "reasonably called 'anti-gun'" -- and maybe that's as accurate a sobriquet as is possible (though I'm mostly anti unchecked proliferation, anti barely-disguised-weapons-of-war-on-our-streets, etc.) -- could "your" side reasonably be called "pro-gun?"

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Response to villager (Reply #50)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:07 PM

51. whats a "barely-disguised weapon of war" on our streets?

 

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #51)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:09 PM

52. It's also this kind of intellectual dishonesty....

 

...that makes meaningful discussion impossible.

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Response to villager (Reply #52)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:13 PM

54. How can that be

 

you are the one that brought up the term and I would just like to hear what your definition of them is. I am sorry you have to get so defensive at a simple question. That may be a problem with our two differing viewpoints as it seems any question asked of your side seems to be put up as an attack, it is not. I just want some information. Fine if you do not feel comfortable providing it, but then do not post that thing either.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #54)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:18 PM

56. But you already know what they are. It's a pointless, snarky question.

 

Meant only to stymie discussion, mire it in rhetorical tar, rather than allowing it to continue in a meaningful way.

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Response to villager (Reply #56)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 07:22 PM

63. Is my K31 Swiss?

 

How about my 2 Mosin Nagants? My Colt 1911? Those are all military specification. Funny that my 2 AR-15 variants are not. Those are and always have been civilian versions that are not military specification.

So I know what weapons I have and also know what military weapons of war are. You seem to be trying to include weapons that are not and have not been ever weapons of war and function identically to all semi-auto rifles no matter how scary they look or if they have wood or plastic stocks.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #54)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:56 PM

62. "I am sorry you have to get so defensive"?

 

LOL!

I'm only just perusing this thread, but I had to post my reaction at how you ask your "simple question." So sincere. No passive aggression there!

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Response to Demit (Reply #62)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 07:24 PM

64. yes, I asked a simple question

 

to get clarification of a post that had a description in it that was very generic. I guess it is not allowed to ask for clarification. Thanks you so much.

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Response to villager (Reply #52)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 12:33 PM

75. Asking you to define the term YOU coined...

 

Asking you to define the term YOU coined, is intellectually dishonest?

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Response to beevul (Reply #75)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 01:04 PM

79. Incredible is it not

 

And to take offense at a request for clarification. Makes my day. Almost like they think they will not be challenged at what they post.

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Response to beevul (Reply #75)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 02:03 PM

81. You already know which guns they are too.

 

That's the point.

You seek confrontation and snark, not conversation. And the very idea that my own turn of phrase, in a sub-clause of a sentence while conversing amicably with Krispos was seized upon to be spun into a "gotcha" kind of sub-thread, actually underscores the very point I was making.

Actual, regular conversation is impossible in such a super-heated, thin-skinned, hyper-defensive environment.

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Response to villager (Reply #81)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 07:20 PM

86. I do?

 


You already know which guns they are too.


I do? Do you mean all semi-automatic weapons by this? Only some semi-automatics?

The fact of the matter, is that I really don't know what you're referring to. So many variations on what you're saying have been defined and redefined time and time again, that theres just no way to know what you mean when you said it.


That leaves it up to you to make sure others understand your meaning. Nobody can clarify it other than you.





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Response to beevul (Reply #86)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 07:30 PM

87. OK. Well, in a thread where *that's actually the topic being discussed*, I may list the guns/models

 

...we both already know.

However, that's not really the topic I set out to discuss with Krispos, and since he and I have discussed and found common ground here on this discussion board, I'm gonna leave it at that.

Peace out! And such.

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Response to villager (Reply #50)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:17 PM

55. Those are the terms I usually use.

It forces things into a simple binary system, but each pole, as you put it, has considerable internal variation.

There are the cultural warriors as well as the regulation proponents, which is another fun topic.



FYI, I haven't been posting much because I moved a couple of months ago and still don't have internet or my desktop, so I've been posting from my phone. Long posts are hard to do!

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #55)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:19 PM

58. I admire phone-posting.

 

I rarely do it. Though perhaps it would force a certain brevity and concision on me.

Congrats on the move -- hope it's a good one, that there is flourishing in the new place, etc....

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Response to villager (Reply #58)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 08:57 PM

67. Thanks

Unfortunately, things are going very badly for my roommate... who is my former fiancé.

It's a long story.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #67)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 10:33 PM

70. Oh jeez.... sorry to hear that.

 

Healing wishes to your roomie/Ex, if there's room for such energies to work any changes at this point...

Take care...

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Response to villager (Reply #70)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:17 PM

71. It's MS.

She's only 37, too.

Thanks for the healing vibes. She desperately needs them.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #71)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:30 PM

72. A good friend of mine out Texas way has had that since his 30's

 

He's a writer/editor, and uses a lot of herb to cope with the good and bad days. Especially the latter.

He also moves more slowly now, though is still working, and still with a pretty resilient attitude about things... He's in his late 40's now...

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Response to villager (Reply #7)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 08:21 PM

65. The same applies to the Gun Control side.

Constant slurs about penis size, sexual ability, sexual performance, wanting to have sex with guns, confusing guns with sex, etc, etc, etc.

The penis / sex slurs against men are are really popular here, not just in this area, and god, the hypocrisy. If someone here said something similar about some woman's sex life, or breast size, or genitalia, the reaction would be thermonuclear.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #65)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 08:33 PM

66. you just get stoned like one

 

long term member. But firearms owners her and male firearms owners it is permitted and accepted conduct.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:40 AM

8. I can multitask

Especially when we have discussed DGUs at great length here. You ignoring all those previous discussions to post this tripe certainly makes the messenger a valid target.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #8)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:42 AM

9. You are so going to get alerted on

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 01:30 PM

33. So, why do you think the author of the OP

 

chose not to count wounding, shooting and missing, presenting a firearm or advising an assailant they were armed as "defensive gun uses"? Was he afraid the real number of DGU would make his article pointless? Kind of hard to engage in an honest debate if one side of the debate will not use honest numbers to make their point.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:33 AM

3. You will not get a reply

 

We all know there are more likely higher numbers of other outcomes with DGU. The OP is down to the Google cut and paste romp of opinion blog so, lol. He seems to be afraid to actually partake in a discussion of the topic as per the group SOP. At least he stopped trying to run the group thinking he was actually a host here.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:36 AM

4. You are totally oblivious to the irony of your meta-whining posts, aren't you?

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #4)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:38 AM

6. I at least comment on the cut

 

And paste blog post. You, not so much. Could you bless us with your thoughts on your Google dumped blog posting?

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #6)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:49 AM

10. You're not making a comment

 

You're whining about a post that you disagree with and attempting to derail the thread.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #10)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:09 PM

11. You know, if you spent a little less time complaining and more commenting ...

 

... you might actually accomplish something, besides being the butt of jokes.

But even a cursory review of your posts shows a mindless and trite, "cut and paste anything" mentality with little to no discussion or input on your part.

It's as intellectually bankrupt as the weasels that post an old cartoon 10 or 12 times, pretending it has some intrinsic value to the discussion or somehow represents their personal "deep thoughts" on the issue.

Then when challenged in any way, you start screeching "Meta", as if that substitutes for a POV on anything. If Skinner thought these were actually Meta posts he would have stopped them instead of suggesting you try and be more a grown up when you go whining to ATA about how mean to you everyone is.

No wonder gun control as a group is pathetic and irrelevant now.

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Response to DonP (Reply #11)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:13 PM

12. See post # 10

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #12)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:23 PM

14. Lol, that's rich

 

Whining about use derailing the thread. Each of us has commented on the cut and paste blog post and how it it is so inaccurate. You are the one that has refused to comment on it as asked and changing the subject about whining and meta. Seems to me only one is whining here. The rest of want a discussion of the blog post but you are scared and refuse to.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #14)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:40 PM

17. See post #4

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #12)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 01:26 PM

31. See post #11 (use all your fingers and one toe you'll figure it out)

 

As a person who refuses to do anything but post other people's material and an occasional poor snark, you are truly worthless on a discussion board.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #10)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:20 PM

13. Would you like some crackers and cheese to go with that wine?

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #13)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:23 PM

15. Lol

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:33 PM

16. What a lie.

"The challenge to that argument is that, data show, guns are rarely used in self-defense -- especially relative to the rate at which they're used in criminal homicides or suicides."


They are rarely used to KILL in self defense. But they are used a lot. Upwards of 60-100k per year.

And I wouldn't characterize suicides as 'innocent'. The antonym, guilty, isn't correct either, as neither concepts apply. Suicide is a choice one makes about their own life, there is no 'victim' in that sense.

"8.9 million violent victimizations"

"Victim self-defense

Between 1993 and 2001, about 61% of all victims of violent
crime reported taking a self-defensive measure during the
incident.

Most used nonaggressive means, such as trying to escape,
getting help, or attempting to scare off or warn the
offender. About 13% of victims of violent crime tried to
attack or threaten the offender. About 2% of victims of
violent crime used a weapon to defend themselves; half of
these, about 1% of violent crime victims, brandished a
firearm."


http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/wuvc01.txt

Tell me, what's 1% of 8.9 million?

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #16)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:43 PM

18. Do you actually expect an answer or rebuttal

 

From him?

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #18)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:52 PM

20. You'll notice that AC commented on the article without making any personal attacks

 

or whining about the content.

It's too bad more gunners can't conduct themselves in the same manner, instead of disrupting threads.

My personal opinion is that the most disruptive people on this website are certain long-termers with tens of thousands of posts. I kind of wish we all expected greater accountability and responsibility from ourselves.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=8327

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #20)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:53 PM

22. never knew asking a person to discuss and comment

 

per the SOP was a personal attack, lol

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #20)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 03:22 PM

43. I notice you returned to comment on the conduct of others

Without acknowledging the material I offered in response.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 12:32 PM

74. So uh, just came here for a fight then, huh?

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 12:37 PM

76. I think we all noticed...

 

I think we all noticed that AC commented on the article...

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 04:57 PM

84. "......instead of disrupting threads."


I see. So in your world, calling BS by it's real name is disruptive.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #84)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 05:46 PM

85. Yep

 

Seems to be the case

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 04:54 PM

83. You are correct - absolutely a lie.

Dr. Gary Kleck refers to the ratio we're discussing as "The Ingeniously Specious" ratio for the reason you cited.

I'd take exception to the "ingenious" part but for the fact that it fools so many people. So it is, in fact, tactical genius.

Edited to add: I'm sure it's been mentioned, but the cost/benefit ratio is moronic because the point of defensive gun use isn't to "bag a criminal", but rather to protect the victim of attack from harm/death.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #19)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:52 PM

21. See post #20

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #21)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:55 PM

23. nice kick

 

makes you look kind of childish though.

Care to share your thoughts on the OP

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #21)


Response to Post removed (Reply #24)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 12:57 PM

25. I'm not here to live up to your expectations.

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #25)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 01:02 PM

26. Or discuss the topic

 

Apparently, lol

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #25)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 01:02 PM

27. You forgot "...no matter how low they might be"

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #21)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 01:22 PM

29. Remember the old joke about the prison joke book?

New guy in prison goes to lunch. One guy gets up in front of the group and says page 142 and everybody laughs. Then he says page 167 and the room roars. New guys asks another prisoner, what's with the page numbers and laughing. Other prisoner says we have a joke book here that everybody has read 100 times so everybody knows the book by heart and the guy only has to reference the page to tell the joke.

New guy gets the book and finds a great joke and decides to try his hand. He gets up in front of the lunch crowd and says page 75 and nobody laughs. He goes back to his table and asks what went wrong and the other prisoner says " You just don't tell it right".



Per some discussion, if more gun owners used their guns to kill their attackers- would it be a bad thing because it would increase the number of gun deaths (and the ratio of defensive gun deaths to overall gun deaths) or would it be a good thing because it would support the oft repeated meme that all gun owners are psychopaths just itching to kill someone?

Per some other discussion, from the article "CDC data show that there were more than twice as many accidental gun fatalities as as justifiable killings."
I'm assuming that the vast majority of the accidental fatalities did not occur during defensive gun usages. This is like counting all traffic deaths against the deaths that occur during NASCAR races. One usage has virtually no bearing on the other usage, outside of a common object. Seems inappropriate to use when discussing defensive gun usage deaths. Same as including suicide deaths as suicide is not illegal in the USA and being a progressive web site we all support choice, such as abortion, suicide, and gun ownership, oops, well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

Multiple edits, deleted post, bad morning typing, sorry.

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Response to beardown (Reply #29)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 01:46 PM

35. One fact ties together all the intentional and unintentional gun deaths & injuries.

 

There was a firearm present.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #35)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 01:53 PM

36. And a human being present to use the firearm.

 

Absent the human factor the gun would do nothing.

Absent the gun factor the human could still cause injury using fists, feet, or improvised weapons. Given the number of firearms that are legally armed versus the number of criminal uses for firearms, it is clear the issue is the people and not the instrument.

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Response to blueridge3210 (Reply #36)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 02:13 PM

38. There are no advantages to using firearms in self-defense situations.

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #38)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 02:19 PM

39. You would be wrong.

 

An older, smaller, weaker person can use a firearm to ward off a stronger, larger, healthier assailant. Hemenway has no credibility on this issue given the crap research he has done in the past. One must always judge the situation; there may be circumstances where attempting to use a firearm are not advised, but a blanket statement to that effect is fundamentally flawed.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #38)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 03:09 PM

42. Guns are an effective and often used crime deterrent

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #42)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 05:31 PM

45. More particularly

 

The bibliography for that study lists some of Hemenway's papers and still came up with conclusions that are the opposite of Hemenway's. Of course the people the CDC used were experts on firearm violence, which may have something to do with the difference. But Secular would know that if he'd bothered to read the study.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #38)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 12:45 PM

78. Was my previous post too on-topic

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #38)

Tue Jul 21, 2015, 12:49 AM

88. Hey! SecMo knows more than the reigning (liberal) gun violence expert!


Well...........not so much.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #35)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 09:26 PM

68. I thought that it was about the 'innocents'

It's not how many bad guys are killed, but how many good guys aren't. Why even mention 'innocent' in the subject line if it's not a key part of the posting? We have to assume that the 300 gun incidents prevented violence to some innocent parties.

Do you think a more thought provoking metric would have been 1,000 innocent guns owners prevented their own death-injury by the use, lethal or otherwise, of a gun? Then we could debate are saving those 1,000 innocent lives worth the 30,000 other innocent deaths. Then the debate would swing to it's next metric of how to weigh the suicides and crook on crook deaths, etc, but with a new counter weight, ie, the 1,000 saved innocent gun users. Of course, the 1,000 figure would bring a whole new point of contention into the discussion.

Now that would have been interesting, but just saying firearms are present doesn't really lead to any meaningful analysis or discussion as that position doesn't seem to differentiate between a woman shooting a home invader coming at her with an axe and a gang banger shooting a rival gang banger. Perhaps this is a key difference between some of the opposing positions between pro and anti gun folks?



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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #21)


Response to SecularMotion (Reply #21)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:52 PM

61. Jury results, #19 and #69

Last edited Sun Jul 19, 2015, 10:17 PM - Edit history (1)

#19

On Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:43 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Apparently the only opinion Secular has
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=171944

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Wow. What an over-the-top, disgusting rant of a personal attack on the OP author. Those who can't argue, name-call.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Jul 19, 2015, 11:50 PM, and the Jury voted 7-0 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Obvious personal attack
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Most alerts that I've seen for 'personal attacks' were so mild they weren't worth hiding. This one on the other hand...
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Ad hominem attacks have no place here
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: A post filled to the brim with extremely disruptive and OTT personal attacks - Truely, a post made of nothing but.

Voting to hide.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Seems like some petty mean name calling to my eyes.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Personal attack
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

#69

On Sun Jul 19, 2015, 08:09 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

The alerter got it wrong. SM has no"Origional Posts" only cut and paste with no comment. n/t
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=172020

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Similar to the previously hidden post, this comment is a attack against another member.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sun Jul 19, 2015, 08:14 PM, and voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

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Response to Lancero (Reply #61)


Response to Post removed (Reply #19)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:18 PM

57. Hmmm

I'd use BASH for such a script. I guess I'm old school.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 01:15 PM

28. Writing X number of anti-gun screeds within X amt of time is a job requirement at WaPo.

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)


Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 01:31 PM

34. How many crimes are prevented by the presence of handguns...

without any shots being fired?

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #34)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 02:58 PM

40. I haven't seen those stats

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 02:08 PM

37. Stat seems to support my progressive stance on carrying a firearm.

In this day and age there's hardly any excuse for not having the means to protect yourself and your family on you.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 03:02 PM

41. How many times were guns used defensively without the attacker being killed and why

does the article omit these uses?

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 03:43 PM

44. how many were in fact innocent?

are gang members and/or drug dealers killing each other innocent? I say no. That is the majority of those murders. When people become soldiers in gangs, they accept all that goes with it.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #44)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:22 PM

59. In for a penny, in for a pound

Gang activity and criminal affiliations aren't harmless.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:09 PM

53. Another thought I had while eating dinner.

There's a delta in the lethality of firearms used in self defense, and used in crimes.

If I shoot someone in self defense, I shoot them until they are no longer a threat. Im using deadly force, but I'm not trying to exterminate them. I'm just trying to stop whatever behavior they were engaged in that cause me to fear for my life or the life of others.

Criminal malfeasance with a firearm is, apparently, often for the purposes of *killing* the target.

There is also the seconds/minutes after a GDU/murder with an inherent difference. If I shoot someone in self defense, I'm on the phone with 911 in seconds. That means I'm putting life saving medical care in motion FOR the person I shot, right away.

If I get shot in the head by some fuck that broke into my house in the middle of the night, it could be days before I'm discovered. Some home invader or mugger or whatever, he's not calling EMS for me.

I'm thinking, and I welcome more study on it, but I'm thinking there's a difference in lethality even when shots hit their mark, between a DGU and an attempted/actual murder.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Sun Jul 19, 2015, 06:41 PM

60. A meaningless stat.

No one has to die in order for a firearm to be successfully used in self-defense. In fact, no one even has to be shot.

Next.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 12:15 PM

73. The object is not to kill but to stop an attack. ...

Two people in my family used a firearm for self defense and in both cases the bad guy ran when he realized his victim was armed.

It is also possible to shoot a person several times and if they get care in time, they survive.

Using the number of criminals killed by civilians to argue against carrying guns is somewhat deceitful when the fact is that in many cases of legitimate self defense involving a firearm, nobody dies.

It is similar to only counting muggings when the bad guy kills his victim.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 12:44 PM

77. This message was hidden by Jury decision.

 

Not really, but I bet I made a few look.




The challenge to that argument is that, data show, guns are rarely used in self-defense -- especially relative to the rate at which they're used in criminal homicides or suicides.


And yet, the default response in every state of the union, and at the federal level, is that when a bad guy with a gun is located, we send good guys with guns to deal with it.

When will you take this study in hand and trod off on a 50 state tour ending in DC to tell every last jurisdiction that they're wrong?


You may be able to argue with wayne lepue, but you can't argue with reality.


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Response to beevul (Reply #77)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 01:07 PM

80. Good head fake

 

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #80)

Mon Jul 20, 2015, 04:49 PM

82. *Extremely* good! Suckered me!


"What?! Beevul of all people got a post hidden?!?!"

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Wed Jul 22, 2015, 01:11 AM

89. maybe they wouldn't have died if they had a gun to defend themselves with?

 

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