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SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 06:49 AM Aug 2015

Does owning a gun make you safer?

The United States has the most heavily armed civilian population in the First World; our homes contain enough firearms for every man, woman and child.

Why do so many Americans own guns? The main reason, according to surveys, is protection. Advocates argue that guns in the home both deter crime (criminals refrain from even trying to break in because they fear being shot by an armed citizen) and thwart it (an armed citizen can stop a crime in progress, preventing injury or theft).

The scientific evidence, however, provides little support for these arguments. Quite the opposite.

In terms of deterrence, a recent study found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership have higher levels of firearm crime and do not have lower levels of other types of crime.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0804-hemenway-defensive-gun-home-20150730-story.html
42 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Does owning a gun make you safer? (Original Post) SecularMotion Aug 2015 OP
Not safer just prepared...training and awareness make you safer. ileus Aug 2015 #1
In a lot of rural areas, everybody owns a gun, yet gun crime is almost unheard of Travis_0004 Aug 2015 #2
If you want safety, I propose the Pretty Damn Safe Open Carry system rock Aug 2015 #3
Do let us know when and where we can see *you* demonstrating this... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2015 #4
No problem rock Aug 2015 #5
I was mistaken when you made an incorrect assumption rock Aug 2015 #6
Ok so clffrdjk Aug 2015 #10
You might fiddle with the gun if it's in a holster rock Aug 2015 #11
"belts, tapes, mechanisms". Sounds like bondage! Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #7
I like your style rock Aug 2015 #12
When you are a 2A defender on DU, you rise to the challenge! Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #19
I've always felt the 2A defenders on DU were challenged. SecularMotion Aug 2015 #20
Ba-doom-boom! Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #22
A drum and a cymbal fall down a flight of stairs... beergood Aug 2015 #35
You first, I don't believe in open carry discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2015 #15
Gladly rock Aug 2015 #16
The consequent conjunction of... discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2015 #17
Well, I guess I need to make a few points rock Aug 2015 #18
your points discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2015 #21
Advocating suicide and the functional equivalent rock Aug 2015 #24
Thanks for making my point for me discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2015 #27
Thanks indeed rock Aug 2015 #28
You're very welcome discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2015 #29
Thanks right back rock Aug 2015 #30
My favorite is: DashOneBravo Aug 2015 #31
And it's not the one with your name on it that you need to worry about. discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2015 #39
For the other services sarisataka Aug 2015 #32
No wonder the Air Force has.... discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2015 #40
And last but not least, Advice from Gunny Richerdson USMC. oneshooter Aug 2015 #42
Was there something in that opinion piece that you thought was worth discussing? ManiacJoe Aug 2015 #8
Sure. Kang Colby Aug 2015 #9
If guns don't make you safer, why do the police carry them? the band leader Aug 2015 #13
I know! I know! rock Aug 2015 #25
IDK about you... virginia mountainman Aug 2015 #14
Actually, I made myself safer.nt Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #23
When I had a robbery, and ensuing gunfight at my (former) home ghostsinthemachine Aug 2015 #26
How did you have a gunfight if you didn't have a gun? DonP Aug 2015 #34
I refer to it ias a gunfight becasue it was, I just didn't have a gun ghostsinthemachine Aug 2015 #36
So ... Straw Man Aug 2015 #37
No 3 bad guys with guns. ghostsinthemachine Aug 2015 #38
So the bad guys had legal guns? How do you know that? Straw Man Aug 2015 #41
Me, personally? Yes. Lizzie Poppet Aug 2015 #33

ileus

(15,396 posts)
1. Not safer just prepared...training and awareness make you safer.
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 07:00 AM
Aug 2015

While it's always wise to carry a firearm, it's in no way a magic bullet.

Stay safe and carry on my fellow progressives.

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
2. In a lot of rural areas, everybody owns a gun, yet gun crime is almost unheard of
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 07:12 AM
Aug 2015

In washington DC, very few people own guns, and gun crime is off the charts.

Obviously there is a lot more at play, and as always, correlation does not imply causation.

Here are the 10 states with least gun murders per 100k people (gun ownership percent)

Vermont (42%)
New Hampshire (30%)
Hawaii (6.7)
North Dokota (50.7)
Iowa (42.9)
Idaho (55.3)
Maine (40.5)
Utah (43.9)
Oregon (39.8)
Wyoming (59.7)
Minnesota (41.7)

There are 12 states with gun ownership rates less than 30%. Only one made the top 10 safest states by gun murder rate.
The states with the most guns is wyoming. Yet they are the 9th safest state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

rock

(13,218 posts)
3. If you want safety, I propose the Pretty Damn Safe Open Carry system
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 10:23 AM
Aug 2015

Under PDSOC you may carry the gun with you anywhere and if you have a target you're drawing a bead on, the rules are pretty much as they are under any open carry system. The real fun begins when you are not aiming the firearm, i.e. you are not planning an immediate firing. Because you consider safety first and are a very careful and cautious firearms expert and the last thing you want is to inadvertently harm others you should have no trouble with this part of the PDSOC. There is just one simple rule: when not readying the gun to fire, it must be pointed toward your head. You may use various belts, tape, or mechanisms to hold it in place, with or without the safety on, loaded of unloaded, all your choice. Notice because you are an extremely careful gun expert that this is a pretty damn safe way of carrying the gun, as your head will provide a excellent safety pillow for those around you, (though there is a very small chance that they will get splattered with bone, blood, and brains. But their safety is pretty well assured and that's the important thing. You certainly should be able to sleep well at night knowing that you offer no threat to your friends, family, or for that matter, downright strangers.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
4. Do let us know when and where we can see *you* demonstrating this...
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:20 PM
Aug 2015

...as I have little use for those who attempt to serve dishes they themselves will not eat

rock

(13,218 posts)
5. No problem
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 02:32 PM
Aug 2015

As I only own one gun and it is at my brother's, I don't open carry. Please though, do feel free to support and encourage the use of the PDSOC system. I do not have it copyrighted. As it's not food don't feel constrained by your high standards for serving dishes!

rock

(13,218 posts)
6. I was mistaken when you made an incorrect assumption
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 04:28 PM
Aug 2015

From the way you asked the question you obviously think the PDSOC system is designed for the safety of the gun-toter. But no, the gun-toter has explicit control of the firearm. What could possibly be safer (for him)? The purpose of the system is to provide safety for his companions or passerbys. So I would be glad to demonstate how safe the system is. You bring the gun and ammo, I'll bring the beer. Any time you're ready. I feel safe already!

rock

(13,218 posts)
11. You might fiddle with the gun if it's in a holster
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 09:51 AM
Aug 2015

I'm thinking you'l be extra special careful if the gun's pointed at your head. Besides we don't want to damage the ground or pavement accidentally, do we?

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
15. You first, I don't believe in open carry
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 10:31 AM
Aug 2015

-Treat every firearm as if it's loaded. ...
-Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy. ...
-Always be sure of your target and what is beyond it. ...
-Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
17. The consequent conjunction of...
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 12:33 PM
Aug 2015
"...when not readying the gun to fire, it must be pointed toward your head."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172173664#post3


...and...

Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172173664#post15


...yields you advocating suicide. Sure you want to do that here where control folks blame suicides on gun owners?
I mean next time we get blamed for suicides, we just say that it's your fault.

rock

(13,218 posts)
18. Well, I guess I need to make a few points
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 01:07 PM
Aug 2015

One. "Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy." I never said that, you did. Though it does sound like a good idea.

Two. Advocating suicide. I don't, but the fact is if you're going to use a gun to do that, it might be best to point the gun toward your head.

Three. PDSOC is a recommended method for those that choose open carry to insure maximum safety for those around them.

Four. As you re-position the weapon from "ready" to "safe", you may temporarily point the weapon into some undisciplined area. So PDSOC is not perfect.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
21. your points
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 03:27 PM
Aug 2015
One. "Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy." I never said that, you did.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rules+for+gun+safety&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

I only repeated it. I can google. I'm cool like that. (modest, too)



Two. Advocating suicide. I don't...

If you say so but suggesting pointing a gun at one's own head is a functional equivalent.



Three. PDSOC is a recommended method for those that choose open carry to insure maximum safety for those around them.

And those recommending it are essentially suggesting suicide.



Four. As you re-position the weapon from "ready" to "safe", you may temporarily point the weapon into some undisciplined area. So PDSOC is not perfect.

Nothing's perfect but there are better options.

rock

(13,218 posts)
24. Advocating suicide and the functional equivalent
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 04:49 PM
Aug 2015

I suppose I should argue at least one of your points. The gun-expert goes on relentlessly about how well trained he is and mistake free in the handling of firearms (all gun accidents are the cause of those other Bozos). He never inadvertently fires it. He's much too good at handling of said device. So surely he can point it toward something without discharging it. Ergo, he can point it towards his head and not commit suicide. Or to state it the other way round pointing a gun at your head and waiting for it to go off will more likely result in your dying of old-age. QED.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
27. Thanks for making my point for me
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 04:57 PM
Aug 2015

Hope for the best but plan for the worst.

"He never inadvertently fires it."

In my highly regulated world of requirements and verification activities, proving "never" takes forever.

Hitching your suggestion (point the gun at one's own head) on an unprovable assertion is not the best logic.

You do, however, get a B+ for effort and courtesy.

rock

(13,218 posts)
28. Thanks indeed
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 05:02 PM
Aug 2015

I've really enjoyed the discussion with you! You've enabled me to refine some points and to see where some weak points lie. Much thanks.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
29. You're very welcome
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 05:08 PM
Aug 2015

Here's some more basic rules you may find useful:

USMC Rules For Gun Fighting
-Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Bring their friends who have guns.
-If you can, make friends with those on the crew served weapons. Bring them as well. Borrow money from them, it gives them an added incentive to protect you.
-Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
-Only hits count. Close doesn't count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
-If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
-Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
-If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
-In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived and who didn't.
-If you are not shooting, you should be communicating (calling for arty or air support), reloading, and running.
-Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting is more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
-Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."
-Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
-In combat, there are no rules, always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
-Have a plan.
-Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
-Have a back-up, back-up plan in case CentCom or SecDef finds the first two plans "unacceptable".
-Use cover or concealment as much as possible. The only visible target should be in your gun sights.
-Flank your adversary when possible. Protect your flank.
-Don't drop your guard.
-Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
-Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
-Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
-The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
-Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
-Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
-Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
-Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."

And finally, while not about guns, it's quite true: Once you pull the pin, Mr Grenade is no longer your friend.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,470 posts)
39. And it's not the one with your name on it that you need to worry about.
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 04:28 PM
Aug 2015

It's the one addressed to 'To whom it may concern' that really demands your attention.

sarisataka

(18,220 posts)
32. For the other services
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 09:40 PM
Aug 2015
Army Rules for Gun Fighting
-See USMC Rules to gun Fighting.
-Add 60 to 90 days.
-Hope the Marines already destroyed all meaningful resistance.


Navy Rules for Gun Fighting
-Adopt an aggressive offshore posture.
-Send in the Marines.
-Drink Coffee and eat donuts.


Air Force Rules for Gun Fighting
-Kiss the wife goodbye.
-Drive to the base in your sports car.
-Fly to target area, drop bombs, (try not to hit the Canuks) fly back to your home base.
-BBQ some burgers and drink beer in your back yard, and talk shit about the Navy, Army and Marines.

oneshooter

(8,614 posts)
42. And last but not least, Advice from Gunny Richerdson USMC.
Mon Aug 10, 2015, 02:10 PM
Aug 2015

If you are the last one standing

If you are still breathing

If you are not bleeding too much

YOU ARE A WINNER

Standing can be considered optional

 

Kang Colby

(1,941 posts)
9. Sure.
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:45 PM
Aug 2015

David Hemenway, a gun control advocate who has dedicated his life's work to promoting bogus "studies" about gun control, creates another masterpiece, easily refuted via publically available data sets and elementary statistics.

ghostsinthemachine

(3,569 posts)
26. When I had a robbery, and ensuing gunfight at my (former) home
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 04:55 PM
Aug 2015

the one thing I took away from that was that had I had a gun, it would have only made things worse. And that for a gun to be even a factor I would have needed it, locked and loaded, at my side at the time.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
34. How did you have a gunfight if you didn't have a gun?
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 12:14 AM
Aug 2015

Maybe I missed something obvious, but to have a gunfight at least 2 people need to be armed.

FWIW, loaded and on safe, preferably in an instantly accessible safe, is the normal way to keep a firearm for home defense.

ghostsinthemachine

(3,569 posts)
36. I refer to it ias a gunfight becasue it was, I just didn't have a gun
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 01:35 PM
Aug 2015

But three other people did. One tried to kill me but his (Stolen) gun jammed when he pulled the trigger. IN MY FACE. Two other guys had (legal) 357's and fired 20 some shots..... (nobody got hit.

Straw Man

(6,613 posts)
37. So ...
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 02:01 PM
Aug 2015
I refer to it ias a gunfight becasue it was, I just didn't have a gun

But three other people did. One tried to kill me but his (Stolen) gun jammed when he pulled the trigger. IN MY FACE. Two other guys had (legal) 357's and fired 20 some shots..... (nobody got hit.

... am I missing something here, or was a bad guy with a gun stopped by two good guys with guns? And with no one killed or even injured?

I fully respect your decision not to have a gun, but in this case it looks as though you were relying on other people to carry your water for you. Glad it all worked out.

ghostsinthemachine

(3,569 posts)
38. No 3 bad guys with guns.
Fri Aug 7, 2015, 02:04 PM
Aug 2015

There were no good guys, outside of myself. Attempted Robbery of a dope deal perpetrated by my step son. What was funny is that the black kids got arrested and NONE of the white kids did. Only one teeeny weeny part of the story....

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
33. Me, personally? Yes.
Thu Aug 6, 2015, 11:55 PM
Aug 2015

Everyone, as a blanket policy? Nope. A firearm can only make you as safe as you are willing to regularly practice with it, and as you are willing to recognize when it is and is not the appropriate tool for your security.

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