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Tue Sep 20, 2016, 08:42 AM

Looks like we can tell the truth when it suits us.

I wish I had $5 for every time I've heard or read the phrase epidemic of violence. It's what those who push for gun restriction repeat over and over, ad nauseum, even though it's a blatant falsehood.

Looks like Trump has just been endorsed by the National Fraternal Order of Police, and will playing the same card we have for years in posturing as the "law and order candidate". Here's a quote from the Salon article that is really chapping my ass:

Today, a sharp uptick in murder rates in a small number of cities, against the backdrop of mass shootings and bombs scattered across metro New York, is lending Trump and his allies a rare fact that they can shamelessly distort to erroneously claim that crime is “through the roof.” In reality, there are very serious but locally specific problems in cities like Baltimore and Chicago. Overall murder and crime rates are still way down from the early 1990s.

So what's up, fellow Democrats? Is there in fact an "epidemic of violence" in the nation or not? Sure looks like some chickens are coming home to roost.

http://www.salon.com/2016/09/20/the-worst-kind-of-cop-out-of-course-the-fraternal-order-of-police-endorsed-trump/

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Arrow 40 replies Author Time Post
Reply Looks like we can tell the truth when it suits us. (Original post)
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 OP
melm00se Sep 2016 #1
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 #7
Eleanors38 Sep 2016 #9
sarisataka Sep 2016 #2
oneshooter Sep 2016 #4
safeinOhio Sep 2016 #3
DonP Sep 2016 #5
jmg257 Sep 2016 #6
pablo_marmol Sep 2016 #8
Eleanors38 Sep 2016 #10
Nuclear Unicorn Sep 2016 #11
benEzra Sep 2016 #12
safeinOhio Sep 2016 #13
friendly_iconoclast Sep 2016 #14
safeinOhio Sep 2016 #18
Straw Man Sep 2016 #15
Duckhunter935 Sep 2016 #16
safeinOhio Sep 2016 #17
hack89 Sep 2016 #19
Duckhunter935 Sep 2016 #20
safeinOhio Sep 2016 #21
Duckhunter935 Sep 2016 #22
safeinOhio Sep 2016 #25
Marengo Sep 2016 #23
safeinOhio Sep 2016 #26
friendly_iconoclast Sep 2016 #28
safeinOhio Sep 2016 #29
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2016 #30
friendly_iconoclast Sep 2016 #33
DonP Sep 2016 #34
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2016 #35
DonP Sep 2016 #36
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2016 #37
Post removed Sep 2016 #38
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2016 #39
friendly_iconoclast Sep 2016 #31
safeinOhio Sep 2016 #32
Marengo Sep 2016 #40
benEzra Sep 2016 #24
safeinOhio Sep 2016 #27

Response to pablo_marmol (Original post)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 09:20 AM

1. it all depends

upon the time parameters of the analysis.

if you take the narrow view, the spike can be interpreted as mighty troubling.
if you take a broader view, the uptick is more an outlying data point from the overall trend (after all trend slopes are never perfectly straight lines).

which view and interpretation one takes can be a clear indicator of one's bias and ideology.

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Response to melm00se (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 12:34 PM

7. "Which view and interpretation one takes can be a clear indicator of one's bias and ideology."


Yup. The fact that some folks leap at an uptick to prove a political point most certainly does serve as an indicator of bias and ideology.

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Response to melm00se (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 01:48 PM

9. My take is even in the most erudite of Salons one can suffer a chicken coop's explosive diarrhea.

 

They pushed da Big Scare. Now they try to offer a limited warranty.

Salon and its War-on-Drugs-type research advocating gun control can further explain this to those who needed a trigger warning.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Original post)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 09:48 AM

2. Fine examples of doublethink.

Gun violence sweeping the nation/ a sharp uptick in murder rates in a small number of cities

Overall murder and crime rates are still way down from the early 1990s/ epidemic of gun violence

Of course it has been repeatedly pointed out that deception is integral to gun control. Emotion matters more than facts, the illusion of safety over actual safety, Rights are "rights", the end justifies the means.

"War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength"


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Response to sarisataka (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 10:22 AM

4. You forgot one.

"Work will set you free"

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Response to pablo_marmol (Original post)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 10:21 AM

3. Yep, more proof

that firearms for protection are no longer needed.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 10:26 AM

5. It's a good thing that "need" has nothing to do with it, huh?

 

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 11:27 AM

6. Unless you are in cities like Baltimore or Chicago.

Or just want to keep the downward trend going!

( totally joking, certainly more at work then an increase in guns for protection)

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 12:47 PM

8. No wonder we're not trusted by so many citizens.


Invoking the felony-silly and authoritarian "needs" argument as we selectively do.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #8)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 01:51 PM

10. GOD! this is a day for bad-ass irony. I feel a beer comin' on.

 

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 02:00 PM

11. Does a decrease in DUIs proves we no longer need drunk driving laws and PSAs?

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 06:21 PM

12. Then don't own one. You have the right to choose, as do I. (n/t)

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Response to benEzra (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 08:04 PM

13. I own a few

For hunting and other sport shooting. None for protection against crime. I don't need any for crimes. I go with the odds. My home is very secure and for the most part I'm home when the street lights are on. Works for me better than fear.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #13)

Tue Sep 20, 2016, 09:07 PM

14. You are perfectly free to choose for yourself. You are not free to choose for others

 

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #14)

Wed Sep 21, 2016, 08:17 AM

18. I didn't say any thing about choosing for others.

I only said, stats show little or no need for protecting one from violent crime.

You are free to use the poster's stats for any reason you wish, as I am also.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 21, 2016, 12:04 AM

15. In a possibly apocryphal quote attributed to Calvin Coolidge ...

I don't need any for crimes. I go with the odds.

... he is supposed to have said, in response to being told that air travel was so safe that there was only one passenger casualty per million air miles traveled, "Small comfort for the casualty."

In other words, odds are no guarantee of safety. Why not take steps to better them?

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 21, 2016, 05:43 AM

16. Choice is a good thing

 

Too bad you are against others having the choice to own a legal item for their needs.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #16)

Wed Sep 21, 2016, 08:14 AM

17. Show me were I said any such thing.

I am in favor of background checks and registration of hand guns. Neither would be a problem for me or other legal gun buyers.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 21, 2016, 09:55 AM

19. This legal gun owner has a huge problem with registration

UBCs are a very good idea - my state has them.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 21, 2016, 11:49 AM

20. Post #3

 

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #20)

Wed Sep 21, 2016, 12:18 PM

21. Try reading it again.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #21)

Wed Sep 21, 2016, 12:22 PM

22. I know what you meant

 

I take your word that nobody needs weapons for defense. Sounds to me like you are taking their choice away as you decided they are no longer needed per your own post.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #22)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 04:12 AM

25. Might want to get that wax out of your ears.

I say no one needs a beer or glass of wine. Does not mean I want to it illegal.

No one needs religion. Does not mean I want to make it illegal.

No needs to buy a blue car does not mean one wants to take your choice away.

No one needs to get married does mean it should be illegal to do so.

I've said I own a few firearms. MY point is that self defense against crime is less and less an argument for owning a firearm for self defense. This is what I got from the post and the stats it uses.
Now if I or anyone questions the NEED for a gun for defense, you seem to lump them all together. So, from what you post, I may want to say you are a big supporter of Ted Nugent. But, that would be just as bad as you lumping me with those that wish to ban firearms.

Failed logic at it best when you think someone is really not saying what they mean. I'm questioning the logic in loading up on firearms thinking it is worth the expense to be safe from a small risk. I'd rather spend my $ on fishing rods.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 21, 2016, 10:21 PM

23. You don't need firearms for hunting either, archery tackle can fill that role. As for sport...

 

Shooting, air guns are more than sufficient. Looks like you don't need those guns all. I will look forward to your announcement that you have disposed of them. But, for the short time they remain in your possession, you would not, under any circumstances whatsoever, use them in self-defense?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #23)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 04:26 AM

26. I bow hunt and

have for 45 years and I shoot an air gun more for practice than firearms. A bolt action 30.06 for deer and 22s for small game and target shooting along with my 20 qauge for birds are not for self defense but could be used for such. Then more firearms are used for crime than actually end up preventing crime. If you want an AK or AR for protection, go ahead, I have no problem with it, I just think it's a bad choice.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #26)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 12:38 PM

28. The poster asked if you unequivocally renounce using your guns for self-defense

 

Do you?

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #28)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 02:31 PM

29. That is a loaded question.

Do you still beat your wife?

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #29)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 02:45 PM

30. Answering "no" would not necessarily imply that at any time you did beat your wife.



Of course if you surmise that the game is just a version of tic-tac-toe, the only winning move is not to play.
But here you are.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #30)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 04:17 PM

33. I suspect the reason why a definite answer hasn't been given is that it would not be "yes"

 

Which would mean that personal taste is being palmed off as some sort of ethical choice.

That stance strikes me as somewhat disingenuous in that a person shot with a gun of 19th
century design would be no less dead or wounded than a person shot with one of more modern design.

IOW, Fuddism masquerading as moral superiority...

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #33)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 04:30 PM

34. "Fuddism" = Hypocrisy in action

 

"You guys can't be trusted with the guns you use, but mine are perfectly safe, because, ... well, they're mine"

That is until the Grabnutz decide that scope on your .308 make them look too much like a "military style" sniper rifle, so we better get those out of civilian hands. And ... while they're at it, that 870 shotgun looks too much like a "military style" police riot gun, so we better take that as well, for the greater good. Those C&R WWII service rifles, Nagant, Mauser, Garand, Springfield '03, et. al. are all REAL military weapons, so they obviously have no place in civilian hands.

Well regulated and all that.

Funny how some folks are very careful to write one way to sound "reasonable" in one group but piss, moan, rant and puke all over gun owners in other groups?

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Response to DonP (Reply #34)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 05:09 PM

35. What would they say about an 1894 Winchester in .25-35?

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #35)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 05:12 PM

36. Show a video of Chuck Connors using it ...

 

... in the opening credits of The Rifleman, then tell the media it was "obviously a gun that can easily be converted to full auto".

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Response to DonP (Reply #36)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 05:16 PM

37. Why not? Congress was shown a few minutes of the movie Wargames.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #37)


Response to Post removed (Reply #38)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 10:53 PM

39. The only thing worse than not knowing why the world...

...isn't working for you is denying that and believing it is.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #29)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 03:59 PM

31. It is an awkward question, not a loaded one. A reluctance to answer it speaks volumes...

 

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #31)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 04:09 PM

32. Yes it does

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #26)

Fri Sep 23, 2016, 07:32 AM

40. I assume then that you retain possession of firearms out of want rather than need?

 

You clearly don't need them in any case.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 21, 2016, 10:58 PM

24. It's not a question of pacifism vs. fear,

but of pacifism vs. having the option of self-defense. I do not buckle my seat belt or have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen because I am scared of car accidents or terrified of fire, but rather because I see those steps as reasonable and prudent countermeasures against the unlikely but possible occurrence of same.

I assume you have taken other methods of securing your home (e.g. locks, lighting, sensors, etc. since you do describe it as secure), and I would certainly assume that you did not take those measures because you are scared, but because you view them as reasonable and prudent measures.

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Response to benEzra (Reply #24)

Thu Sep 22, 2016, 04:36 AM

27. I don't think I mentioned pacifism or inferred it.

The methods I use to secure my home cost me much less than most popular weapons. I like my measures because they are cheap and work, even when I'm not home. Seems many firearms used in crime are stolen. A firearm is worthless against a break-in when you are not home. I just try to be cost effective.

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