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Sun Aug 25, 2019, 07:00 PM

44 countries with the lowest murder rate and their gun laws.

This is the 44 countries with the lowest murder rate. Next to the countries names are an abbreviated description of their gun rights. If it says yes then they have the right to have guns, may issue or may issue restricted means they have no right to have a gun and the government may issue them if they deem it and restricted means it is heavily regulated. Out of 44 only 1 has the right to have guns and it is more restrictive than our rights. Of course correlation does not imply causation but I believe this is a good place to start.

44 Algeria- may issue
43 Nauru- no
42 Cyprus - Shotguns only
41 Slovenia- may issue
40 Sweden- may issue restricted
39 Serbia - may issue restricted
38 Oman- may issue
37 Portugal- may issue
36 Denmark - may issue
35 Morocco- may issue
34 Tonga - may issue restricted
33 Malta - may issue restricted
32 Australia -may issue
31 Croatia - may issue restricted
30 The United Kingdom - may issue, shall issue for shotguns
29 New Zealand- may issue
28 Iceland - may issue
27 Slovakia- may issue restricted
26 Greece- may issue
25 Germany- may issue
24 Italy- yes may issue
23 The Czech Republic – may issue restricted
22 Burkina Faso- may issue restricted
21 Poland- yes may issue restricted
20 Luxembourg- may issue
19 Switzerland – yes well regulated
18 The United Arab Emirates- may issue restricted
17 China- may issue, restricted
16 Korea – no
15 Spain - may issue
14 The Netherlands- may issue
13 Norway- may issue restricted
12 Madagascar- may issue restricted
11 Ireland- may issue
10 Indonesia- may issue restricted
9 Bahrain- may issue restricted
8 Austria- may issue restricted
7 Brunei- may issue restricted
6 Japan- may issue restricted
5 Singapore- may issue restricted.
4 Liechtenstein- may issue restricted
3 San Marino- may issue restricted
2 Monaco- may issue restricted
1 Andorra- may issue restricted
43-1
My links for the data.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/murder-rate-by-country/
https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland

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Reply 44 countries with the lowest murder rate and their gun laws. (Original post)
Eko Aug 25 OP
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 25 #1
Eko Aug 25 #2
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 26 #22
guillaumeb Aug 25 #3
gejohnston Aug 25 #4
Eko Aug 25 #6
gejohnston Aug 26 #8
Eko Aug 26 #10
gejohnston Aug 26 #13
Eko Aug 26 #15
Eko Aug 25 #7
gejohnston Aug 26 #9
Eko Aug 26 #11
Eko Aug 26 #12
gejohnston Aug 26 #14
Eko Aug 26 #16
gejohnston Aug 26 #17
Eko Aug 26 #18
gejohnston Aug 26 #19
Eko Aug 26 #20
gejohnston Aug 26 #21
friendly_iconoclast Aug 26 #23
riversedge Aug 25 #5

Response to Eko (Original post)

Sun Aug 25, 2019, 07:36 PM

1. re: I believe this is a good place to start.

I'm not seeing the subject of your proposal as deterministic. Please spell it out for me. What is a good place to start?

I do see that Poland, Switzerland and Italy have "yes" and that most of these places say restricted. So propose something. Say what should change.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 25, 2019, 07:46 PM

2. Having more restrictive gun laws.

Pretty evident.

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Response to Eko (Reply #2)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 07:15 AM

22. Burkina Faso... You're kidding me right?

The death toll from the conflict is hard to pin down, analysts say, but the majority of victims have been Muslim. Islamist groups killed approximately 1,110 people in the region last year, according to the Africa Center - a surge from 218 in 2016. https://www.stripes.com/news/africa/islamist-militants-are-targeting-christians-in-burkina-faso-1.595052


OUAGADOUGOU (Reuters) - The Burkina Faso military said 24 soldiers were killed in an attack by unidentified militants on an army unit on Monday, the heaviest loss for the army in its fight to contain Islamist violence.
The army, which earlier put the death toll at 10, said it had launched a land and air operation in response to the attack in Koutougou, in northern Burkina Faso’s Soum province.
Seven other soldiers were wounded and five are still missing, it said in a statement on Tuesday.
Once a pocket of calm in the Sahel, Burkina has suffered a spillover of Islamist violence from its neighbours, including the kind of ethnic attacks that have destabilised Mali in recent years.
Large swathes of the country’s north are now out of control, raising pressure on President Roch Kabore. https://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFKCN1VA1E6-OZATP


"Please spell it out for me. What is a good place to start?"
Narrow it down a bit, like what? If your best idea is another AWB I understand. Please don't bother answering.

This country has about half of all the guns in private hands around the world. Semi-autos have been around for 100+ years. AR-15 pattern rifles have been available for around half that time and have become popular in the last 25 years. But they are now about the most popular type of rifle sold. They are modular and accept a variety of optics. They are easily customized to suit the size and uses of the owner. If you want to argue that ARs are also most popular gun of mass shooters, I think everyone can conclude why. It's because they are the most popular type of rifle overall today.

There is high correlation between the flow of money and criminal assaults. Especially in the US where money is everything to many people. Murder isn't always money motivated but a lot of crime is based on it. One place to start is looking into who directly benefits or who turns a profit from it. Every cop and criminologist knows this.

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Response to Eko (Original post)

Sun Aug 25, 2019, 07:50 PM

3. The correlation seem evident.

But when we factor in money being speech, and legalized bribery also being speech, we can see the result.

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Response to Eko (Original post)

Sun Aug 25, 2019, 10:34 PM

4. What was their crime rates before gun laws?

Most of Europe was much lower than now, ad hoc fallacy. I noticed that countries with even stricter laws, buy much higher murder rates, like Mexico, Brazil, and South Africa is absent. In fact, we have some of the lowest murder rates in the world.

Also, look at the factors that criminologists and evolutionary psychologists look at. What do these countries have with the US when it comes to drug gangs, crumbling infrastructure, wealth inequality, and political corruption? Nothing. When it comes to that, we have more in common with Brazil and Mexico, which have far stricter gun laws and higher murder rates. The areas in the US where most of the murders take place, over half is concentrated in two percent of the counties, are those type of places. Also, most of them are gangs killing each other with guns that were not purchased at an FFL nor a gun show.

Sure, either side can cherry pick their favorite countries claim a correlation. Fact is, there is no correlation. The mainstream criminology studies generally show that gun laws and gun ownership rates are irrelevant. Both the CDC and National Academy of Science said as much.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 25, 2019, 11:44 PM

6. Feel free to show their crime rates before gun laws.

If not its just Ipse dixit.
"In fact, we have some of the lowest murder rates in the world. "
Absolutely not, we are 121 out of 197 for lowest murder rates by poplulation with 1 being the lowest. If we were in the below 100 I think you could make a case for that, but 121 out of 197? What? Give me a break. What a blatantly false statement.
"The mainstream criminology studies generally show that gun laws and gun ownership rates are irrelevant. "
Feel free to show some of this. If not, once again Ipse dixit.
Thanks,
Eko.
Link for murder rate. http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/murder-rate-by-country/

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Response to Eko (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 12:09 AM

8. Since most of my information

is in printed material and not easily found on line. I also don't pick one source, too easy to be taken in by confirmation bias. I would like to know where they got their stats from. Also, their 2015 numbers is out dated, and it doesn't stay constant. Also, your source picks from different years for each country. You may or may not be correct on it.

Even then, ours is concentrated in a few urban areas. You also can't compare Europe and Japan, which culturally etc have nothing in common with us. You also can't compare a large pluralistic country with any of these other places. You also can't discount the factors pointed out before. For example, there is a near perfect correlation with wealth inequality with crime rates. You can repeat the the same source, but your reasoning is still fallacious.

https://time.com/4100408/a-criminologists-case-against-gun-control/

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 12:24 AM

10. Well, one persons opinion is obviously the gold standard then.

Way too funny especially since I asked for murder rates before gun laws which you have not provided, you didn't address your mistake that we have one of the lowest murder rates which is patently false and did not show anything from the CDC or National Academy of Science.
Fun stuff.

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Response to Eko (Reply #10)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 12:41 AM

13. I answered your first question,

http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=10881

Certainly the lowest that have anything in common with us, as stated before.


BTW, still haven't addressed the ad hoc fallacy.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #13)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 12:48 AM

15. What was my first question?

I don't see a question mark in any of that post, so feel free to elaborate.
"Certainly the lowest that have anything in common with us, as stated before. "
Feel free to show that data.
From your link ""Policy questions related to gun ownership and proposals for gun control touch on some of the most contentious issues in American politics: Should regulations restrict who may possess firearms? Should there be restrictions on the number or types of guns that can be purchased? Should safety locks be required? These and many related policy questions cannot be answered definitively because of large gaps in the existing science base," said Charles F. Wellford, professor, department of criminology and criminal justice, University of Maryland, College Park, and chair of the committee that wrote the report. "
I dont think that is showing what you wanted at all.
Its only a ad hoc fallacy when you can show that much of Europe was lower than now and you havent provided any data to show that.
Try again.
Eko.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 25, 2019, 11:53 PM

7. How are Mexico's gun laws far stricter?

In Mexico, the right to private gun ownership is conditionally guaranteed by the Constitution,118 119 120 121 as limited by statute law122 123 124
In Mexico, private possession of semi-automatic assault weapons is permitted128 129
In Mexico, private possession of handguns (pistols and revolvers) is permitted,128 129 130 with some exceptions125 39
In Mexico, civilian possession of rifles and shotguns is regulated by law128 129 130 39
In Mexico, the private sale and transfer of firearms is prohibited without an extraordinary permit160 161
I would say that is a bit stricter, but far stricter?

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Response to Eko (Reply #7)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 12:13 AM

9. There is only one legal gun store in the country,

which happens to be sitting in a military base.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Mexico

The cartels, and Australian biker gangs and US drug gangs, use the black market or make their own. Gun laws affect only those who are not the problem.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #9)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 12:27 AM

11. So where do all these people in mexico get their guns from?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #9)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 12:30 AM

12. Ah,

From 2009 to 2014, more than 73,000 guns that were seized in Mexico were traced to the U.S., according to a new update on the effort to fight weapons trafficking along the U.S.-Mexico border.

The figure, based on data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, represents about 70 percent of the 104,850 firearms seized by Mexican authorities that were also submitted to U.S. authorities for tracing.

The data was analyzed by the Government Accountability Office, which notes in its report that U.S. police agencies have acknowledged firearms smuggling is fueling violent crime in Mexico.
Many of those guns were bought legally in the U.S. and then smuggled over the border, according to the GAO.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/12/462781469/in-mexico-tens-of-thousands-of-illegal-guns-come-from-the-u-s

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Response to Eko (Reply #12)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 12:44 AM

14. no,

According to the GAO report, some 30,000 firearms were seized from criminals by Mexican authorities in 2008. Of these 30,000 firearms, information pertaining to 7,200 of them (24 percent) was submitted to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for tracing. Of these 7,200 guns, only about 4,000 could be traced by the ATF, and of these 4,000, some 3,480 (87 percent) were shown to have come from the United States.

This means that the 87 percent figure relates to the number of weapons submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF that could be successfully traced and not from the total number of weapons seized by Mexican authorities or even from the total number of weapons submitted to the ATF for tracing. In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.


https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #14)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 12:57 AM

16. Sure,

but it also means that of those submitted to the the ATF amost half came from the US, it is a safe bet to believe that statistic would hold for the rest.
Thanks,
Eko.

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Response to Eko (Reply #16)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 01:02 AM

17. no,

the ones not submitted were obviously not of US origin. That only means they were made or imported in the US at one time. That includes guns redirected from military and police. Those also include military weapons left over from the US/Communist bloc proxy wars in Central America and Vietnam.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #17)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 01:04 AM

18. How do we know they were obviously not of us origin?

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Response to Eko (Reply #18)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 01:06 AM

19. GAO report said so

also, why wouldn't they?

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #19)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 01:09 AM

20. Really?

"Of course, some or even many of the 22,800 firearms the Mexicans did not submit to ATF for tracing may have originated in the United States."
From your link.
Try again.
Eko.

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Response to Eko (Reply #20)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 01:16 AM

21. Those would be the ones stolen from the Mexican military,

which are US origin and Mexican officials know where they came from. Also see the word MAY. It didn't say they did.
try again.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #21)

Mon Aug 26, 2019, 01:35 PM

23. The Mexican military also has a problem with SF types deserting to work for cartels:

'The training stays with you': the elite Mexican soldiers recruited by cartels

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/10/mexico-drug-cartels-soldiers-military

Falko Ernst in Apatzingán municipality

Sat 10 Feb 2018 03.01 EST

Delfino was handpicked twice. At 18, he was chosen by the Mexican army to join its elite unit, the airborne special forces group known by its Spanish acronym, Gafe, where he specialized as a sniper.

Ten years later, he was recruited again – this time by the very people he’d been trained to kill...

...According to Mexico’s defence ministry, about 1,383 elite soldiers deserted between 1994 and 2015.

Defectors included members of units that received training in counter-terrorism, counter-intelligence, interrogation and strategy from French, Israeli and US advisers, according to a 2005 FBI intelligence document.


...many, if not most of whom went to work for ruthless mobsters who had (and have, and are willing to spend)
hundreds of millions of dollars for security.

So what eventuated is what we have now: The originally legal stuff from the US that does get traced comes from small-timers
and wannabees/noobs of the big cartels. Or are throwdowns

The real military stuff is reserved for rich independents and the higher-up-the-food chain/'made' cartelistas.

Mark it predicted here: One or more (if they are not already) cartels will be publicly found to be have
diversified into the 'wholesale hardware purveyor' game...

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Response to Eko (Original post)

Sun Aug 25, 2019, 11:13 PM

5. k for visibility

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