Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumFast and Furious follow-up: the gun store allegations.
Predictably, the teabaggers have not been very happy about the recent Fortune investigation which shattered their conspiracy theory dreams. Some of them, in an attempt to revive "Birtherism 2.0", have pointed to allegations that the ATF instructed gun dealers to proceed with questionable gun sales.
Reporter Katherine Eban has followed up her investigation with an enlightening discussion of these allegations. Apparently, it boils down to just two situations. In the first, the ATF did encourage a straw purchase to go on, but only because they intended to arrest the buyer immediately afterwards. But the buyer didn't make the purchase, so there was no arrest. In the second, the accuser was a gun store owner who changed his story between Feb and Sept 2011, and whose allegations are contradicted by written ATF records and DoJ correspondence.
In the six months of investigations that led Fortune to conclude that the ATF had no policy to intentionally permit weapons to be trafficked, we examined 2,000 pages of ATF records, Congressional reports and testimony, and interviewed 39 people involved in or knowledgeable about the case. That body of evidence shows the ATF did not have a policy of encouraging gun dealers to sell to traffickers. Until now, the alleged encouragement of gun-dealers has not been a central focus of the Fast and Furious scandal. As a result, we did not address those points in the article. However, given the interest in this question, we thought it was worth taking readers through the evidence on this point.
It should be noted at the outset that the Congressional committee investigating Fast and Furious has never claimed the ATF had any official, written policy to encourage gun dealers to sell to traffickers. No documents, emails, or testimony mentioned in Congressional reports show signs of an agency-wide policy, or even a policy within Phoenix Group VII, the unit that worked on Fast and Furious.
What the allegations in the Congressional hearings and reports boil down to are two specific situations. In one, as we'll see, the allegations are true -- but misleading and incomplete -- and in the second, the evidence is contradictory. It's possible that the Congressional investigators have other evidence, but these two episodes are the only ones that have surfaced to date.
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/03/fast-and-furious-follow-up-the-atf-and-gun-stores/
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aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)Weird. Its not like certain anti-RKBA groups and persons use that phrase to describe firearms and ammunition.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)So why is this one so well done and LA Times, Amy Goodman, and everyone else part of this "birtherism 2.0?
Is Holder going to use the article as evidence to go after Dodson for perjury?
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I'm sure they never explained this to you in gun school, but rational people actually adjust their beliefs when new evidence come to light.
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/6/28/amidst_holder_contempt_vote_new_investigation
spin
(17,493 posts)comes forward, you will carefully consider the new evidence.
It does seem odd that the Republicans would chose to focus attention on this issue unless they have further evidence or witnesses that they can unveil as the election approaches. Their best issue is the economy and the slow recovery from the Great Recession. To be effective any revelations about "Fast and Furious" will have to be explosive and will need to cause concern not only among the many gun owners who already support Republicans but also the general public. The main stream media has largely ignored this issue and will continue to do so or will denigrate Republicans if they push too hard without solid factual evidence.
I do not a have crystal ball not do I pretend to be a soothsayer, but I have the suspicion that "Fast and Furious" might eventually prove embarrassing to the Obama administration.
Of course there is the possibly that since many Republican gun owners lack enthusiasm for Mitt Romney and might not make the effort to show up at the polls, the focus on "Fast and Furious" might be designed to shore up the Republican base. Romney is at best a weak candidate and he will need all the help he can get.
The Fortune article represents the best investigative work on F&F up to this point, but naturally, if more information comes in, of course I'll change my views. What is interesting to me is that pro-gunners are stubbornly refusing to yield to facts, instead they are basically expanding the breadth of their conspiracy theory to include Katherine Eban and her 39 sources as co-conspirators.
The thing is, from the beginning there was never much of a real political angle to this. Even before the Fortune story, the evidence seemed to indicate that F&F was a botched attempt to track guns and bring down large gun trafficking networks by letting some of the "little fish" go -- at worst, a controversy about law enforcement tactics that had nothing to do with the Obama administration. Now it is apparent that even this isn't true, that the reason the guns were "walked" is simply that the gun laws are so weak that they couldn't legally justify seizing them. But, even before this revelation, nobody outside of loony right-wingers was going to buy the theory that it was all a secret conspiracy to renew the assault weapons ban.
I disagree, however, that there need to be explosive new revelations in order for this to rile up the crazies in the GOP base. They already are riled up! We're talking gun nuts here, not rational people. Facts are pretty much irrelevant when it comes to right-wing conspiracy theories: birtherism, "death panels", Fast and Furious, etc.
permatex
(1,299 posts)A dead Border Patrol agent and possibly hundreds of dead mexican citizens with because of this botched op.
Anyone who thinks that this is some sort of a conspiracy to pass more gun control laws belongs in the Loony Tunes.
BT021
(34 posts)'botched', how so?
F and F transferred thousands
of firearms to Mexican criminals.
the only part botched, was that info leaked to the press
"law abiding" (wink wink) gun owners transferred thousands of firearms to criminals.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)Just kidding, I never really thought that.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)and the Fortune magazine still raises questions. It looks like a standard whistle blower case. One or a few blows the whistle, institution or company smears whistle blower with the standard "rouge, disgruntled whiner who bitched about working weekends" as part of the ass covering and retaliation. Still have to be skeptical even if you love it and Cenk tells you to buy into it. Why did some magazine writer get confidential documents but not congress? Are these documents going to show up at a perjury or lying to congress trial? If those things happen, I will take the article more seriously.
More than once I said I was a liberal and not a progressive, I fail to see your point.
For a minute there I actually thought you were liberal and open minded critical thinker, wait never really thought that.
BT021
(34 posts)by selling guns to known criminals.
Keep in mind that BATF issues FFL licenses
to gun stores.
do you really want that?
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)It seems by obeying questionable lawful order the FFL would be entrapped.
Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
I wonder what would have happened if the FFL's had refused to let illegally purchased guns walk? A little administrative revenge like revoking the FFL?
permatex
(1,299 posts)but didn't some of the gun stores record conversations between themselves and the BATFE because they didn't trust them? I seem to remember one gun store owner who was concerned that if this blew up in the BATFE's face, they were afraid that the agency would try to shift the blame to them and try to have them shut down.
Am I correct?
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)It would be most damning. Permanent placement of corruption, enshrined on YouTube.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)So, is DoJ going to use this snow job go after Dodson for perjury? Goodman is giving Eban equal time. That makes Goodman a serious journalist in search of the truth and not an ideologue. It does not mean Eban's piece should be taken seriously as a refutation of stronger evidence.
Seriously, it is hardly an "investigation" in the true sense of the word. It is being marketed as being an investigation. Basically she is being a mouth piece for the agents in charge of that field office. Eban also ignored dealers turning in suspected straw purchasers, only to be instructed by ATF to go along with it.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Did you read this latest update? It directly deals with the issue of the gun dealers supposedly being instructed by the ATF to let straw purchases take place. As the original Fortune story explains, that fact that someone thinks that something is probably a straw purchase doesn't mean that the ATF can simply start arresting people and seizing guns.
There is no stronger evidence. That Cefalu guy didn't even have any direct involvement in F&F, and he seems to be perpetually involved in inter-ATF political feuds. He doesn't actually know what happened in F&F, he's just speculating and cherry-picking evidence because he's got an axe to grind against higher ranks of ATF. You have a strange habit of severely misrepresenting the content of the things you cite. Sometimes I wonder whether you are just picking links at random from the internet and then claiming them as "evidence".
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)simply weighing it compared to better stories. Actually, I made comments on the original thread, you kind of ignored them.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)...buy a guy who doesn't get along with his boss and has a severe axe to grind against the chain of command in the ATF. The loons over at Sipsey Street pick up on this, and it blows up into a full-on conspiracy theory about secret gun control plans (and what good conspiracy theory doesn't involve secret gun control). Darrell Issa decides it's a good idea to use this as a witch hunt.
And then, finally, a legitimate investigative reporter does what the survivalists and gun loons would never do, which is to systematically talk to all the agents involved (not just the ones with a vendetta), review 2000 documents and 39 sources, and deduce that the "gunwalking" wasn't actually really "gunwalking", with the possible exception of some isolated incidents, one of which was, ironically, performed by the very same "whistleblower" who triggered the entire controversy. This doesn't square with your politics, which is why you're "evidence" is an interview from a year ago by a guy who wasn't actually involved in F&F.
Of course, those of us that have been paying attention to F&F have been aware for a long time that the real root of the problems were weak gun laws, lack of a dedicated gun trafficking statute, no database of gun sales, no background checks for private sales, understaffed and underresourced ATF, etc. All that changed with the Fortune investigation is that it seemed previously that the "gunwalking" tactics were devised out of frustration with the ineffectiveness of going after straw purchasers, whereas the investigation showed that they couldn't legally have seized the guns.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)valid points and questions. Just like you ignore of the many legitimate news stories about full autos from Central America and abroad. And why did Voth show her documents that would clear them, but Holder have congress blacked out pages?
I don't read Sipsey Street, but Dodson went to CBS first. Everyone else said "me too".
I would call Cheryl Atkinson a legitimate investigative reporter. The Fortune article reads like an op ed, not real reporting.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)And testimony from the one person who actually did engage in rogue "gunwalking"? Please tell me this isn't the kind of stuff you are basing your judgements on. I'll repeat again, we have an extensive investigative report with 39 sources, 2000 documents, the most significant piece of reporting yet, and you're still clinging to the word of two severely compromised witnesses, one of whom doesn't even have first-hand knowledge. Here's a tip: the way to do investigative reporting is not to put up an anonymous web forum and believe all the conspiracy theories that show up there.
Do you ever wonder why nobody who hasn't smoked the NRA pipe who believes any of the stuff that you are saying? That gun trafficking to Mexico is not actually a huge source of guns for cartels? That some 60K guns have not actually been traced back to the US (and that's just a fraction of the overall number of guns trafficked to Mexico)? That the straw purchasing laws are not really inadequate, it's just that every single ATF agent that said so is covering for their incompetence and laziness?
And before you say "CBS" (again), the CBS reports don't say what you want them to say -- this is yet another example of you citing a report that says one thing and claiming it says something else. It is true that Sheryl Attkinson believed Dodson's story, and in retrospect it looks like she should have checked up on the facts and talked to a wider group of sources. But she never went off into conspiracy theory territory about how it was all a secret gun control plot. And she never denied that there is an "iron river", or that really we don't need a gun trafficking statute because charging these guys with "lying and buying" works out great. I've only see that stuff from right-wing loons.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Did she have free reign to speak whom ever she wanted?
Did she go through the documents or just what Voth handed to her?
Not saying she is wrong, unlike you I can live with ambiguity. Still raises more questions. Unlike you, I don't project my problems on to other people. If you seriously think anyone should accept her story at face value more than anyone else's.........
So, when does the perjury trial start?
I never said it had anything to do with some secret plot. You are projecting that.
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)Agent Cefalu says he was exiled to working at home for the last two years ( from June 2009?) because of past confrontations with the Bureau. Was Cefalu working at home at the time of the supposed gun walking? I don't get from the interview that he has any first hand knowledge. With all the past disciplinary actions against him, is it reasonable to conclude that those were all incidents or retaliation as Cefalu alleges, or valid disciplinary actions from different supervisors from different locations?
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)which talks about various problems with ATF management. Those problems range from being a the racism and sexism left over from when the ATF was part of the IRS and the agency's culture of going after whistleblowers. I remember seeing a 60 Minutes segment some years ago about ATF's EEOC problems. If they were valid disciplinary actions, my guess he would have been fired long ago.
Meiko
(1,076 posts)and I had one for over 10 years before I gave it up, but I can say this. The ATF is hard to deal with and what is legal during one inspection may not be legal the next. I have in the course of 10+ years been lied to by the ATF, investigated by the ATF and on one occasion they thought they were going to confiscate my entire inventory without due process because of a simple paperwork error which would not have affected the transfer of a gun. Only a call to my lawyer stopped that one.
I'll tell you when ATF went to hell and it was after WACO. Now before you scream "RIGHT WINGER!" I have worked with these people and they are something else, and there is no American citizen, Republican or Democrat that shouldn't be appalled by what happened at WACO. The ATF is an agency that bears some watching and I wouldn't believe a word they told me. JUST SAYIN'
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)If they were, what ever they were, or Mormon all would be good. If they were Muslim, the left would be up in arms and the right would be silent at best.
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)was savage murder.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Instead the gun nuts continued raping young women, and standing their ground after murdering 4 agents. Just because someone is a fellow gun lover, they can do wrong.
I would love to debate WACO with you but this is not the place for it......
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)N/T
permatex
(1,299 posts)is useless because he has no clue about what he's talking about. There was no rape of girls during the 51 day standoff which wouldn't of ever happened if the ATF had just arrested him in during one of his many forays into town.
There would have been no dead ATF agents, or dead women and children if the ATF hadn't tried to make their "dynamic entry" into the compound.
The ATF and FBI totally fucked up the whole operation.
But you'll never get Hoyt to admit that he knows not what he spews.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 10, 2012, 08:04 AM - Edit history (1)
There is no rational defense for the gun loving, raping, right wing terrorists. The ATF did their job.
permatex
(1,299 posts)Meiko
(1,076 posts)innocent people, among them women and children.....animals.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Remmah2
(3,291 posts)Couple of pinheads fly some planes into some buildings, bomb two countries into oblivion. Spawn the next generation of terrorist.
permatex
(1,299 posts)Do you think that 4 BATFE agents would be dead if they had just arrested Koresh when he went into town? Have you ever asked yourself why they chose to do a "dynamic entry", not my phrase, one of the agents at the congressional hearings, instead of just waiting until he went into town, which he did often?
It was established that BATFE's budget was up for review and the upper echelon determined that they needed a splashy event to justify an increase in funding.
And your earlier comment that there was rape of girls going on during the 51 day stand-off, you have no proof of that.
From beginning to end, first the BATFE and then the FBI fucked it up royally with tragic results.
I'm not letting Koresh off the hook, he should have given himself up right away, but the huge majority of blame lies with the above mentioned agencies.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)when the heavily armed terrorists shot the agents. Then, we had a 51 day standoff before things happened. Koresh should have given up, but choose to continue raping teenagers, playing with his guns, etc.
I don't know why he wasn't taken in town, although I suspect it was because he was heavily armed gun toter and considered a right wing terrorist who cared nothing about the towns people.
In any event, I hope you feel good in the same Koresh support group as McVeigh and thousands of other right wing gun nuts.
here's a suggestion, instead of spouting nonsense, learn the facts, he didn't carry in town, he was unarmed.
Also you have NO PROOF, and neither did the FBI that during the stand off, girls were getting raped.
As to why he wasn't taken in town, I already posted one of the reasons why, the ATF wanted a splashy event to justify an increase in their funding and this was the perfect event to them.
Also, the ATF knew that Koresh knew they were coming, so why did the ATF go anyway?
I agree that Koresh should have given up right away, but does that justify the deaths of over 80 men, women, and children?
In any event, I hope you can provide proof of any where I supported McVeigh? Otherwise, you need to retract your false allegations.
But I know you won't, you'll just deflect some more.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)permatex
(1,299 posts)In your mind, you think that because I'm pointing out facts instead of buying into your revised history of what really happened, I must support McVeigh?
You still haven't pointed out where I am wrong about what happened at Ruby Ridge or Waco.
Why is that?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)up with his guns hiding behind women and children. He could have walked out at any time after shooting the 4 agents serving a warrant. 51 days seems plenty to me. But, I guess heavily armed, compound dwellers deserve more in your world.
By the way, do you carry a gun while under the influence?
I want to be
One toke over the line sweet Jesus
One toke over the line
Sittin' downtown unarmed in a railway station
One toke over the line.
HALO141
(911 posts)What the ATF did is act rashly and get a lot of people killed.
(Not to mention tampering with evidence.)
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)The intent is to bait pro2A persons into losing control so as to support the arguement of the prohibitionist.
There a severe lack of emotional intelligence on the part of the prohibitionist. Consider the toolbox and SOP of the anti2A crowd.
A person defends their house; the home invader was murdered as part of the "second amendment solution".
A bunch of religious kooks murdered by the ATF; "They were doing their job".
permatex
(1,299 posts)In my short time here, I figured that out. I think their goal is to get a pro 2A members so pissed off that they say something incendiary so's as to get them eventually banned.
I'm not falling for that shit. I may get quite animated when I see innuendos and outright lies, but I'm pretty careful to stay within the TOS which I have read very carefully.
If I think that I will violate the TOS, I won't post it, I'll modify it to stay within the TOS.
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)When people who have no skin in the game read the discussions they generally side w/the pro 2A side of the arguement. The media for years has presented a bias side of the arguement. The Internet allows the myths to be busted..............................
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Played in tandem late at night on the west coast.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Meiko
(1,076 posts)they are nothing but trouble looking for a place to happen.
Meiko
(1,076 posts)Take some time out of your busy day and watch this, it's very interesting.
permatex
(1,299 posts)But I can guarantee that Hoyt will just deflect it.
It is a very interesting documentary and it makes some very valid points. I know it's hard to watch through You Tube because of the length but it is well worth the time. I have also read several books on the subject, you know...the information the media will not report.
permatex
(1,299 posts)and watched the congressional hearings on both as well and I was absolutely appalled at the tactics our govt. used to start and end these sieges, especially the Weaver stand off which was clearly demonstrated at his trial that the govt. entrapped him which ultimately led to the deaths of his son Sammy, his wife Vicky, U.S. Marshal William Degan, and the wounding of Kevin Harris and Randy Weaver.
And to this day, not one federal agent was ever held accountable.
permatex
(1,299 posts)Did I call it right or did I call it right? He is so predictable.
Meiko
(1,076 posts)and of this I had no doubt...ignorance is bliss.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)produce.
Might as well go get a copy of "The Turner Diaries" and waste my time with that BS, or listen to Glen Beck tell us how great the gun loving Davidians were.
permatex
(1,299 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)I hope I am always predictable on such things.
I might add, that the hardened gun culture members here -- and especially on right wing gun sites -- are predictable in their love for Koresh, McVeigh, Weaver and every other militia wannabe who uses guns to intimidate.
permatex
(1,299 posts)as I hope progressives are. Why don't you show us just how justice was served by the murder of over 80 humans at Waco, why don't you tell us just how justice was served by the killing of Weaver's son, wife, and a U.S. Marshal.
If Randy Weaver was so guilty, why was he acquitted of all but one charge by a jury, why did the govt. pay him and his children over 3 million dollars if he was guilty.
Instead of your usual rhetoric and deflection, try to honestly answer these questions.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)And a bunch of innocent teenagers and women died because of the terrorist Koresh who used them as fodder and underage sex.
And many who love guns have apprarrenly decided to make him a martyr.
Weave was a member of Ayran Nation -- another gun loving, racist group popular among right wing gun culture.
He conspired to traffic illegal guns to undercover agent that Weaver thought was another racist gun lover like himself. I'm sorry, people who traffic in guns in the hope of having them used against minority citizens are not on my favored list. Similarly, I don't like people who use guns to intimidate others.
permatex
(1,299 posts)you can't tell the truth on anything here can you.
I'm so done with you on this issue.
Bottom line on Weaver is he was found NOT GUILTY on all but 1 charge and the govt payed him and his family over 3 million dollars.
You lose again.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)I don't find that admirable.
His family would still be intact if he did not have a love affair with guns and racists. Or, he could have simply turned himself in, rather than hiding behind his wife and child.
permatex
(1,299 posts)If Weaver was so guilty, why was he acquitted of all charges except 1, which was the least of charges?
Why did the govt. award him and his family over 3 million dollars?
Oh let me guess, all the people on the jury were RW racist gun loving bigots, right?
You would do better knowing what your talking about instead of spouting easily proven falsehoods.
Try it sometime.
I'm done.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Guns to other racists. Should have been easy, but the KKK terrorists have always gotten away with their gun crimes and crimes against humanity. And there are always those ready to make martyrs out of worthless SOBs.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Were any of those bad decisions significant justification for the killing of his wife and son?
Not. Even. Close.
Additionally, Weaver had some pretty good reasons not to trust the government at the time the siege began. the warrant for his arrest (for "failure to appear"
was the result of his court date being changed without notification. The supremacist group he'd been part of had been infiltrated (which I support, but it's not something to engender trust on the part of that group's members). He had been manipulated into the weapons violation that initiated the entire case (a rather clear cut case of entrapment that never resulted in an actual indictment). Weaver's belief that he would not be treated fairly was hardly unreasonable, given how badly he already had been treated.
Then the federal marshals show up and horribly botch the initial encounter, with Weaver's son and one marshal ending up dead. A federal sniper (Lon Horiuchi...who I earnestly wish would die in a fire) executes Vicky Weaver in cold blood.
This sorry incident should be an example to liberal and conservative alike of the dangers of the power of authority gone badly awry.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)they got into guns and bigoted hatred. All the racist had to do was walk out of his compound with his hands up -- his family would still be alive.
He was not "manipulated" into anything. He thought he was being paid for an illegal gun by another racist gun lover while they sipped wine and cheese at the local Ayran Nation meeting. It cracks me up when people say poor ole "law-abiding bigot" Weaver was trapped or manipulated. He was a racist terrorist willing to supply other racist terrorists with weapons they needed to carry out their hatred against the citizenry.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Weaver was/is a racist- no one denies that. But since he has neither been convicted or even accused of terrorist acts, he is by definition not a terrorist.
Likewise, those legislators whose votes you don't like are "criminals":
http://www.democraticunderground.com/117248459#post22
22. You sure do assume alot don't you?
Willing to abandon liberal causes to keep rethugs in office to protect your beloved guns.
Not fooling anyone. The state I live in has a strong pro gun Senator who is a Dem who pretty much votes progressivly.
The reason the NRA has the bat shit crazy leadership is because of people like you.
Response to permatex (Reply #22)
Sat Jul 7, 2012, 01:03 PM
Star Member Hoyt (7,499 posts)
23. Nope, gun loving members and manipulative leadership are responsible -- as are criminal legislators
View profile
Last edited Sat Jul 7, 2012, 02:20 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
Who suck up to NRA and other right wing gun groups.
Do you happen to have a list of those "criminal legislators" handy, Senator?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)gejohnston
(17,502 posts)he was accused of with taking a hacksaw to a undercover ATF agent's shotgun, manufacturing an NFA weapon without a license. He was not convicted of that.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)You guys will forgive anything as long as someone is spreading guns. Your poor innocent gun trafficker agreed to alter a gun to help what he thought was a racist. I guess he thought ayran nation is the boy scouts or something.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)He might have shown up for something to do. Point is, he wasn't in the gun business.
permatex
(1,299 posts)Go read the Sen. transcripts on the Ruby Ridge hearings, better yet, watch the the hearings which were televised, and then go read the court transcripts on Randy and Kevin's trial and tell us that the govt. conducted themselves honorably.
Just because he was a racist doesn't mean the death penalty for his wife and son. AS WAS CLEARLY SHOWN IN HIS TRIAL, OUR GOVT. ENTRAPPED HIM.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)and probably having a grand ole time. Screw weaver.
you aren't willing to learn the truth. Why am I not surprised? Actually, I'm really not surprised at all judging from your attitude towards everyone who disagrees with you here.
What's the matter Hoyt, the truth just too convenient for you?
The truth is there in the Sen. transcripts, you only have to Google it and read. Or is that too much to ask for?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Walk into an ayran nation meeting and you've stepped in it. The gun culture here will shoot an unarmed teenager stealing beer out of a carport, but would defend weaver, koresh, and God knows what else to the end.
permatex
(1,299 posts)The truth is you don't know the truth because, I think, it would screw up your perception of legal gun owners.
I really pity you, truly I do.
I asked you to look up the Sen. transcripts and all you do is come back with some bullshit that doesn't make any sense at all. so the only conclusion I can come to is that you don't want to learn the truth, you would just rather spout your usual platitudes.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)permatex
(1,299 posts)You've made yourself very clear about learning the truth.
You play this game very badly.
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)how some here screech about 'summary execution' when a citizen shoot a person while committing a crime but is perfectly willing to accept deaths of people who have committed no crimes because they have undesirable views.
isn't that something? As long as it fits their anti gun screech, it's perfectly acceptable for those kind of executions but let a legal honest CCP holder use their weapon in self defense, then it becomes judge, jury, and executioner.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Response to Reply #129
144. Guess what? Civil rights aren't just for "our sort of people"
Edited on Sat Aug-02-08 01:04 AM by friendly_iconoclast
There is a very long history in American jurisprudence of people defending the civil rights of
people they wouldn't have over for dinner. Or who wouldn't have *them* over for dinner.
From John Adams (accused British soldiers in the Boston Massacre), to
the ACLU (Illinois Nazis vs. the city of Skokie), to Sabin Willett (prisoners at Guantanamo).
I wouldn't defend Razzano as a person. I would, however, defend his rights no matter how odious his ideologies.
See: Goose and gander, sauce for.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Would you accept your acquaintances being treated in like manner by law enforcement?
BTW, you seem to be having trouble explaining what, exactly, his "terrorism" was. And he didn't traffic guns, either. I suppose you missed that detail as well...
permatex
(1,299 posts)he ends up getting his butt handed to him.
I remember watching the Senate hearings on the Ruby Ridge fiasco and I loved watching Sen. Specter just take apart the ATF agent Byerlee. The ATF, U.S. Marshal Service, and the FBI were all criminally responsible for the deaths of Weaver's wife and son.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...as it was when Tailgunner Joe did it.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Pure comedy gold...
permatex
(1,299 posts)he is, as you say, pure comedy gold.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)I never put anyone here on ignore, actually. If their entertainment value disappears, it's easy enough to just avoid their posts.
It ran on the history channel at one time. It paints a very accurate picture of what happened, much of it through video and FLIR images. It is not a Koresh defense piece.
sarisataka
(18,600 posts)They were plenty of reasons to arrest Koresh.
I will call out the government when they do not follow the law however or act stupidly while grandstanding.
-IIRC he had a fairly standard habit of going into town on certain days and could have been picked up any time.
-the Davidians were tipped off by a reporter the ATF was using to make sure the story was covered. They had also used the reporter as an informant.
-the search warrant was based, in part, on false allegations of meth manufacturing, which ATF knew was false
-several ATF agents believe they fired first either after an ATF ND or shots fired by the anti-dog team. After the siege all agents recanted to say that the Davidians fired first.
-Janet Reno specifically ordered that incendiary devices were not to be used because of the fire risk. This order was ignored.
-Key evidence mysteriously disappeared while the site was secured by FBI.
-The remnants of the compound were also bulldozed rapidly, destroying forensic evidence.
This list of issues goes on much longer.
The whole matter was an unnecessary Charlie Foxtrot
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)They all advocated absolute gun control for minorities. You can put Jim Jones on your list too.
