Indiana Father Accidentally Shot Dead by 3-Year-Old Son

[SecularMotion]

An Indiana father watching television with his children was accidentally shot to death by his 3-year-old son after the boy found a loaded handgun nearby, police said on Saturday.

Michael Payless, 33, was found dead in the southern Indiana town of Salem on Friday night.

Payless was watching television with two of his children when the other child, a 3-year-old boy, found the gun.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/07/14/us/14reuters-shooting-indiana-boy.html?hp

[rfranklin]

1. If only that boy had taken the NRA gun safety course...

a tragedy would have been averted.

[shadowrider]

2. That's cold, even for an anti-gun advocate.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

3. Cold???

"...even for an anti-gun advocate."

I'm not sure there is a type other than cold.
Do you know of any?

[shadowrider]

4. It just pisses me off. A tragedy like this happens and the "NRA" is brought into it

it's freakin disgusting.

[rfranklin]

8. The NRA is a right wing political operative...why worry about it on DU?

They are currently fighting transparency on their political funding and threatening legislators who buck them.

[PavePusher]

13. Because lies and innuendo shouldn't be considered a normal part of debate. n/t

[rfranklin]

14. There are no lies or innuedndo in my post..it is fact

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/07/13/516229/exclusive-nra-threatens-senators-who-support-campaign-finance-disclosure/?mobile=nc

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101635317

Anyone who supports these bums should not be on DU. Send your alert now.

[Meiko]

24. define

support.

[bongbong]

63. They will

> Send your alert now.

I regularly get locked out of threads the gun-religionists have staked a claim on.

For being so "tough", they sure are all sensitive and stuff!

[shadowrider]

15. You have introduced a strawman argument. A man died and now it's about the NRA?

Gimme a break.

[rfranklin]

17. no you give me a break...you spend your time on DU shilling for the NRA which is a right wing group

and now you get sanctimonious. Jeezus.

[Clames]

19. Outright lie and you know it.

None of the regulars here shill for the NRA. That only exists in the wishes and imaginations of folks like you.

[permatex]

20. Why don't you post the links of anyone here "shilling for the NRA"?

I mean, after all, you wouldn't accuse a fellow DU'er of something w/o proof, would ya?

Oh wait.

[shadowrider]

35. I shill for the NRA. You have the right poster? I support gun rights, I don't rah rah

the NRA.

[beevul]

34. A popular misconception...

Last edited Sun Jul 15, 2012, 05:55 AM - Edit history (1)

A popular misconception, founded in a hatred of guns and the people who own and enjoy them, and anti-gun ideology, or some combination of of those things, no doubt.

Lookie there - its wayne laPierre ... complimenting and endorsing a Democrat.

Well, thats just what right wing political operatives do, now, isn't it.


Pro-gun Democrats win endorsements from NRA


By Ben Pershing
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, October 7, 2010

So far this year, the NRA has endorsed 58 incumbent House Democrats, including more than a dozen in seats that both parties view as critical to winning a majority.

In South Dakota, Rep. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin (D) got the NRA's endorsement even though her opponent, Kristi Noem (R), has made her fondness for hunting a prominent part of her campaign.

Noem's campaign manager, Joshua Shields, said that regardless of Herseth Sandlin's record on gun issues, she would still support House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), "one of the most anti-gun speakers Congress has ever had."

"We made that argument to the NRA," Shields said. "Obviously it didn't work."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/06/AR2010100606329.html

I'm sure you have an explanation for this. You will share it, wont you?




NRA-PVF Endorses New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson


Monday, October 02, 2006

Roswell, NM - The National Rifle Association Political Victory Fund (NRA-PVF) announces its endorsement of incumbent Governor Bill Richardson for re-election in New Mexico's gubernatorial race November 7, 2006.

Announcing the NRA-PVF endorsement at a press conference in Roswell, NM, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre stated, "The National Rifle Association is committed to preserving freedom for all law-abiding Americans. We support Governor Richardson because he has stood with the gun owners, hunters and sportsmen of New Mexico."

Signing HB 622 earlier this year, Governor Richardson approved $1.4 million for the planning, design, and construction of improvements to Shooting Range State Park in Albuquerque, NM, the location for the 2006 National Police Shooting Championships. Governor Richardson dedicated money from his portion of available capital outlay for the project.

In addition, during his tenure as governor, Richardson signed Right-to-Carry into law, making New Mexico the 34th state to grant law-abiding citizens the right to carry firearms for personal protection. Governor Richardson also signed the NRA-backed Right-to-Carry Reform Bill, which, among several other improvements, lowered the minimum age requirement for a permit from 25 to 21 and extended the term of a license from two to four years.

Because of his support for the Second Amendment as New Mexico's Governor, Bill Richardson has earned an "A" rating from NRA-PVF.

http://www.nrapvf.org/news-alerts/2006/10/nra-pvf-endorses-new-mexico-governor-bill-richardson.aspx


But since its the nra, I guess they're just lieing.





NRA Endorses 14 House Democrats Over Republicans

by Frank James

The NRA has earned a reputation over the decades as a pro-gun advocacy group that's solidly in the Republican camp.

But in what will no doubt come as a surprise to many, the organization is endorsing 14 House Democrats in close races because their Second Amendment views line up with the with those of the gun-rights group.

It's an unwelcome move as far as Republicans are concerned. They've come to take NRA endorsements of their candidates as a given.

The Washington Post reports the NRA's policy in recent years is to support incumbents when their positions on gun rights are similar to the NRA's and their challengers.

That approach favors more than a dozen Democrats in tough races this year, according to the WaPo.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2010/10/06/130393162/nra-endorses-14-house-democrats

More nra lies?





Why don't you just admit that no matter what the nra does, short of endorsing devout anti-gun religionists, you wont be happy.

Something along the lines that your dearly departed colleague did here, perhaps:


"NRA Dems are just as bad as any other NRAer's or freepers"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3513277&mesg_id=3515912

[gregoire]

52. Considering the NRA does that to hurt the Party...

what is your point? The NRA is the Republican party. They only support Democrats when it helps the Republicans.

[gejohnston]

54. How so?

Since the NRA backed that Montana governor and Bernie Sanders, does the NRA also want single payer? Do they also want to go after polluters? How does it hurt the party?

[safeinOhio]

21. NRA opposes mandatory trigger lock law.

In an opinion handed down on Wednesday, the Florida Court of Appeal for the 3rd District found the trigger-lock ordinance of the City of South Miami "null and void" under Florida`s preemption statute. The lawsuit against the ordinance was brought by the NRA, Unified Sportsmen of Florida, and individual plaintiffs.

[gejohnston]

22. But Florida does have a safe storage law

http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/790.174.html
How would you enforce a trigger lock law?

[permatex]

23. so now it's the NRA's fault

the man is dead? Even if the law was still in effect, how do you know it would have been followed in this instance.
The "blame NRA for everything bad" around here is so fucking stupid, it reeks.
The NRA leadership are RW assholes, but they're not responsible for bad things happening regarding firearms.

[rl6214]

38. Would this be a law that would REQUIRE you to have a lock on at all times?

I would oppose it also. You want a law that requires a lock to be sold with all firearms, I would agree with that.

[ileus]

10. some celebrate when gunowners are killed...

....after all live by the death spewer die by the death spewer. Legal owners deserve to die by being accidently shot by the 3yo it's funny you know.

[aquart]

27. An irresponsible gun owner died.

Or are you planning a defense of a twit so witless he left a loaded gun lying around in a room with three children?

[ileus]

30. exactly....he deserved to die.

[aquart]

32. Possibly. But his kids didn't deserve to lose their dad that way.

He really was a useless, incompetent putz.

SO, DID THE GUN KEEP THEM SAFE?

[Starboard Tack]

46. Actually, it could be argued that he did deserve to die for being so fucking irresponsible.

What if the kid had shot one or both of the other kids? When I pick up a gun, or have a gun in my possession, my right to life on this planet radically changes, because it is now contingent upon how responsibly I act. If I fuck up, I lose my right to live.
If any gun owners don't recognize that simple truth, then they are kidding themselves.

[permatex]

18. Your a d**k

Condolences to the family.

[4th law of robotics]

48. Hey that's not cool man. You shouldn't say stuff like that to other DUers

"You're" not "your".

[Starboard Tack]

53. Just a heads up, but it isn't cool to call people names on DU

You might want to edit your post before it gets hidden. This place can get pretty passionate at times, but insults are not conducive to good debate. Just sayin'.

[permatex]

56. How do you know what I'm saying

I might be saying duck, dock, deck, dack.

[Starboard Tack]

57. Right.

[permatex]

58. Can you prove otherwise?

No, you can't, so let's just leave it there.

[Starboard Tack]

59. We're not in a court of law.

I don't care if you have posts hidden. It's up to a random jury. Sometimes they'll hide a post like that and sometimes they'll let it slide. My point was about keeping the conversation civil, not about proving your intent.

[permatex]

60. Are you giving the same advice to everyone else here?

Until you do, please don't lecture me.

I'm curious, have you given the same advice to bongbong, Hoyt, bowens43?

[Starboard Tack]

61. I'm not lecturing you. Sorry if I gave that impression.

I was giving you a heads up because you were civil to me. You showed me a courtesy and I returned it. Hoyt has been around a long time and knows how things work. I'm not familiar with the others you mention.
BTW, I checked and you skated on it with a 3-3 decision. No big deal. I don't use asterisks myself. Probably why I get posts hidden.

[permatex]

62. No problem

and if I sounded snarky, which I probably was, I'm sorry, you've been decent here also and I would like to keep it that way.

[rl6214]

37. Wait, wait, wait...

Where's the compasion and sorrow for the shooting victim? Are you that cold hearted?

[4th law of robotics]

47. Or rather if the father had.

[slackmaster]

5. Basic gun safety should be taught in public schools

Anyone who finishes high school should know not to leave a loaded weapon where an unqualified person might pick it up.

[Trunk Monkey]

12. Anyone with half a brain

should know not to leave a loaded weapon where an unqualified person might pick it up.

[russspeakeasy]

6. If you can afford a gun, you can buy a fuckin trigger guard...

[pwhtckll]

9. I don't even have kids...

...but I keep my firearms unloaded and secured with cable locks when not in use.

[ileus]

11. they give away locks and guards...but not common sense.

[Meiko]

25. Every

gun manufacturer I know of provides a lock with their guns, many new revolvers have a lock incorporated into the trigger mechanism and locks are available from several sources for free.

http://www.projectchildsafe.org/


This is the same old story here.It is not about gun locks it is about complacency. A loaded gun was left lying around where a child could get a hold of it. I feel sorry for the family for their loss but I can't help but see the irony here.

The NRA had nothing to do with this.

[Starboard Tack]

7. Sad. Hope the kid's OK and learned a good lesson.

We must remember that Mr. Payless probably had this loaded gun with him to protect his family.

[shadowrider]

16. That may or may not be true. It's sad this happened. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

26. I am sure seeing Dad bleeding and unresponsive

was bad for both kids, but at the age of 3 I am not sure it registers that pulling the trigger is what caused Daddy to go away. Their little brains don't process that sort of thing yet.

[aquart]

28. Learned a lesson?

A THREE-YEAR-OLD KNOWS HE MURDERED HIS FATHER AND RUINED HIS FAMILY?

That's a pretty big advance on A is for Apple.

[slackmaster]

39. It's not a murder

Obviously.

[Starboard Tack]

42. It wasn't murder.

The 3 year old has hopefully learned something his father never took the time to learn.

[tularetom]

29. The kid is fucking 3 years old fer chrissakes

His brain is not capable of drawing a cause and effect from this tragedy.

And this is basically nobody's fault except possibly the victim. Not the kid, not the NRA, not you nor me.

And the fact that Mr Payless was irresponsible doesn't mean he deserved to die.

It was an accident, a tragic and preventable accident. It doesn't mean that handguns should be outlawed. Nor does it mean that everybody should be carrying. Sometimes, shit just happens.

[aquart]

33. Yup. Kid would have killed his father even without a loaded gun in the room.

[Starboard Tack]

41. Yeah, sometimes shit just happens.

Like some kids get dealt morons for parents. That kind of shit.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

55. the way you are talking in this thread, I am beginning to wonder about your parents.

[rl6214]

40. Why aren't you making a comment, that there was no comment make?

Like here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117250579#post1

[Starboard Tack]

43. Some stories, like this really need no comment, though I would have made one.

Shooting an intruder seems like something any home owner might do. I don't see any argument. Giving a 3 year old access to a loaded firearm is a whole other ball of wax. People can learn something from such a story, like responsible gun ownership and responsible parenting.

[rl6214]

44. Ah, so that's it now...if you feel it dosen't need a comment then it's ok.

[Starboard Tack]

45. No, a comment is preferable. Especially if the issue is not obvious.

In this case, it is obvious that we have an issue of gun safety as well as parenting skills. I failed to see an issue in the homeowner shoots intruder story. Maybe I missed something.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. what a horrible, senseless tragedy. My condolences to all the Payless family in this time of grief.

so horribly sad. tragic. poor child.

[rl6214]

36. You guys on the anti-gun side need to get your act coordinated...

should there or should there not be a comment posted when you post a story like this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117250579#post1

[Remmah2]

50. Level playing field?

Dream on.

[rl6214]

51. Yeah, you're right

[Remmah2]

49. The sad thing.

The sad thing is we live in a world where we need locks, security lights, alarm systems, guard dogs, and private security because evil and bad people do exist.


I can remember growing up and not needing to lock the house door or car door.


Can you imagine the good one could do if those things were not needed in society?