How Many Massacres Will It Take for Politicians to Stand Up To Gun Nuts?

[SecularMotion]

Here are basic facts about the massacre that took place in Aurora, Colorado, early yesterday morning. A 24-year-old man, James Holmes, opened fire in a movie theater with an AR-15 assault rifle and other weapons that he had purchased legally. He killed 12 people and wounded 58 before being captured by police.

The killing spree has triggered the usual polarized reactions. New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg said, according to The New York Times, “Maybe it’s time that the two people who want to be president of the United States stand up and tell us what they are going to do about it, because this is obviously a problem across the country.”

And here, again according to The Times, is the familiar counter-reaction, from Luke O’Dell of the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners: “Potentially, if there had been a law-abiding citizen who had been able to carry in the theater, it’s possible the death toll would have been less.”

Because I don’t know what else to do, I’m going to reprint an edited version of a piece I wrote in January, 2011, after Jared Loughner killed six people and wounded 14 others, including Representative Gabrielle Giffords, in Tucson, Arizona. But I don’t harbor any illusions that what I or anyone else says will make any difference:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2012/07/21/how-many-massacres-will-it-take-for-politicians-to-stand-up-to-gun-nuts/

[shadowrider]

1. I don't know. 45 shot in Chicago over Memorial Day. Why no outrage there?

It seems to me the gun nuts were stood up to since guns are illegal there. What new laws could we pass to prevent that?

[Lionessa]

2. Probably because it didn't have the MSM excitement and hype due to being mulitiple

incidents through out the weekend. Not only was I not outraged, I didn't even know about it.

Comparably though the number injured and number dead are virtually identical to Aurora. So I agree that this does show that tight gun restrictions don't stop gun deaths, though it may stop the headline grabbing shootings.

And then back to the OPs premise, in this case of Aurora, seems to me if the guy couldn't have bought guns, he was well prepared to use bombs or explosives which could have been so much worse even than what the guns did. So it seems a massacre was going to happen regardless of gun accessibility.

A link to the Chicago reporting.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/29/chicago-shootings-10-dead_n_1552297.html

[shadowrider]

6. Unfortunately, it didn't get the press and hype because it's Chicago, it's gangbangers,

usually black on black and it's old news. No one cares except those that scream for more restrictions. How can you have more restrictions when they're illegal in the first place?

I appreciate your civil response.

[Starboard Tack]

9. Except he obviously was not suicidal

Bombs would have been far more difficult to use without endangering himself. Who needs a bomb when you have body armor, grenades and enough firepower to shoot 70 people?
Chicago had 10 deaths/45 shootings over an entire Memorial Day weekend, by gang members from 70 active gangs with tens of thousands of members.
Denver had 12 deaths/70 shot in a few minutes, by 1 guy.

"It won't be an easy fight. Police blame much of the violence on the city's more than 70 active gangs and their tens of thousands of members. Homicides – nearly all of them shootings – spiked by 60 percent during the first three months of this year to 120, despite an increase in police resources in some of the city's most dangerous neighborhoods."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/29/chicago-shootings-10-dead_n_1552297.html

[gejohnston]

10. where did he get the tear gas

grenades?

[Starboard Tack]

13. Great question

[Lionessa]

11. Splitting hairs.

I didn't say he'd be a suicide bomber. Clearly he had bombs and therefore the ability to have done that instead without being suicidal about it.

And I don't think those in Chicago who lost loved ones care whether is was multiple incidents or one. The only people that care about that aspect, imo, are those that don't care about our inner cities and the communities of color that these occur in.

[Starboard Tack]

15. I'm in no way diminishing the problem of inner city gang violence.

I'm pointing out the differences. The reference to the Chicago shootings was meant to deflect from an entirely different phenomenon. It is disingenuous, at best, to suggest that an outcry over the shootings in Denver is a dismissal of those in Chicago.
The only common denominator is people killed by others with guns.
If you think guns belong on the streets of America, then you are part of the problem.

When minority kids shoot each other, it's brushed aside as an inner city problem.
When middle class white kids start shooting, they have "mental health" issues and overly protective mothers.

It is NEVER because of a gun culture that promotes carrying guns in public.

[Lionessa]

17. It ranks one above the other, and hence the victims therein, it seems. Death is death,

why are those killed in the theater more worthy of outrage against guns than the clearly illegal guns running rampant elsewhere, causing just as much damage, more even when you consider that this is likely an individual event for Aurora, but in these others, they continue week after week after week. And the facts in those areas is that gun control only assures that only criminals have them. Would more be better? I'm a bit wishy washy on that idea, but clearly banning them isn't working either.

[Starboard Tack]

20. They are all worthy of equal outrage.

Banning them isn't working because there are no bans. Gun control doesn't work, because it is selective and unfair.
Most guns are purchased by white males. Most illegal guns used by gangs were originally purchased legally by white males.
I'm sure you can figure it out from there.

Many of these white males who purchase guns, do so with no more thought than buying a set of golf clubs. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Soon forgotten. Lose them, sell them on Ebay, leave them in the garage, get them stolen. Millions of them.
If you want to figure out a problem start at the source.

[shadowrider]

22. You have a cite for the white males comments? Just curious n/t

[Starboard Tack]

51. LOL

[shadowrider]

56. So what you stated as fact is actually misguided opinion?

[Starboard Tack]

58. Maybe you'd care to challenge any part of what I said.

Asking me to cite the obvious and then calling it a misguided opinion is like questioning the brightness of the sun compared to the moon.

[shadowrider]

59. I see. It's the old "some things are so obvious they don't need to be proven" bit

I think I did challenge it by asking you to prove your statement. You laughed. If you can't prove it, it's misguided opinion, in my opinion.

[Starboard Tack]

63. I made several statements. Some fact, some opinion.

Take your pick and I'll respond accordingly.

[gejohnston]

23. Can't sell guns on Ebay

and you are talking about a couple of federal laws being violated. BTW, what do you base the "most are bought by white guys"? Most of the drug buyers in my neighborhood I mentioned before were also white males from "nicer" neighborhoods. I base that on simply paying attention to my surroundings.

[Starboard Tack]

52. Ebay was a metaphor.

I don't think we really need stats on the white male thing, do we? I'll give you 4 clues on that one. Pick 3 random ranges and go count, pick 3 random gun shows and go count, pick 3 random penitentiaries and go count and lastly, check the US census.

[gejohnston]

57. OK

If I pick three random ranges, one in Detroit, one in Wyoming, and another around here. I get one mostly black, one one mostly white, and another mostly old former New Yorkers and Canadian snowbirds.

Half women half men, mostly white.

Three random penitentiaries, I only visited one. The Wyoming state Pen in Rawlins is pretty white bread. There were a few Hispanics and a Native American. The only African American I saw was the warden. If I went to Utah or Idaho, I would see similar. Of course, if I went to Mississippi or South Carolina, it would be just the opposite. But then, I didn't see that many white cops in those states either. States with larger populations, it would probably depend on which one I went to.

[Starboard Tack]

60. Random doesn't mean selecting, it means random.

But let's forget random. Let's look at the numbers. More men buy guns than women. There are more white guys than minorities. There are fewer whites incarcerated than minorities, percentage wise.
African American males have a higher felony conviction rate than white males, making it harder to legally own.
Hispanics have a higher rate of being undocumented, making it harder for them to own.

Now, if you are suggesting that most guns are bought by a different demographic, I'm all ears.

[gejohnston]

62. no,

but you are over generalizing. Oh yeah, in the south west, Hispanics are just as likely, if not more so, to be native born with ancestors being there before it was was part of the US. If you go to New Mexico, Texas, and parts of Arizona, you will find a lot of Hispanics at gun shows and ranges.

[Starboard Tack]

66. Of course you will. They make up a third of the population in those states.

I'm not over generalizing, I am generalizing. You are pointing out exceptions, which I acknowledge.
I think I have it right on this, but am open to being proven wrong.

[Lionessa]

25. And there in a nutshell is the problem. Gun control doesn't work.

And if it wasn't guns it'd be something else. We just have a lot of angry and idle people. The answer is jobs, good paying, respectable jobs. Minimum wage rate for adults vs teens to solve that issue, which I understand. Healthcare, including eyes, teeth, body, and mind. Education, equal for all, not by the wealth of the district's property.

Want the source, start there. That anger is going to be expressed, the idleness will find the way to kill. Unfortunately society runs cycles throughout history of levels of violence, and no matter how many times the same theme is replayed, those in charge of our menial lives never learn, and never care to learn. They just get bigger armies, that are turned against protesters peaceful and otherwise. Oy, nevermind me. Sorry, your looking so much at a symptom, the disease is extreme inequality.

[shadowrider]

26. "And if it wasn't guns, it'd be something else." Exactly correct n/t

[alabama_for_obama]

30. yes.

every time I have a conversation about this, that is where I turn to. let's get to the root of the problem instead of coming up with solutions that even to a casual observer obviously don't work.

[permatex]

34. Very well thought out post

Thank you.

[Lionessa]

35. I do try to think out every post. You're welcome.

I've always told my kids when they would ask, "why?" That nothing could ever be understood by asking "why", and it just isn't "whys". There's virtually never one reason, and therefore singular focus on one "why" will assure failure. It is much better to consider the many "whys" to be truly wise. Here guns are the "why" that banning won't solve, and "whys" are all the reasons people feel so much rage and despair and fear.

[Starboard Tack]

53. Correct on every count.

Gun control doesn't work and neither does carrying guns around. Nothing good ever comes from carrying guns in public. Nothing. Ever. The best outcome of carrying a gun is "less bad", but never "good". Kinda like American Spirit lights.

[AtheistCrusader]

40. Ban.... white males?

[Starboard Tack]

54. No, just ban stupidity.

[Callisto32]

45. I'm curious.

You going anywhere with that "white males" shit, or are you just sexist and racist?

[Starboard Tack]

55. You got it. I really hate myself.

You going anywhere with your guns? Like church or the movies?

[gejohnston]

18. because it isn't because

the gun culture promotes carrying guns in public. For one thing, the problem predates liberalized concealed carry. Also, most of the problems are in places where there is no real gun culture to speak of, at least not in the way most people think of it. Criminologist James Wright put it best during a congressional testimony in 1995.

My sixth observation is that the bad guys inhabit a violent
world. As such, a gun often spells a life or death difference
to them. If you ask felons, whether adult or juvenile, why they
own guns, why they carry guns, themes of self protection, self-
defense, survival, and so on, dominate their responses. Very few
of the bad guys say they acquire or carry guns specifically for
offensive or crime committing purposes, although that is obviously
how many of them get used. These men live in an extraordinarily
hostile environment. Many of them come to believe, no doubt
correctly, that their ability to survive in that environment depends
critically on being adequately armed. "Adequately armed," in this
case, means being better armed than your most likely adversary,
namely the police. If sheer survival is indeed the issue, then a
gun is a bargain at practically any price.
As James Q. Wilson has recently argued, the largest share of the
gun violence problem results from the wrong people carrying guns at
the wrong time and place. The survival motive among the bad guys
means exactly that the wrong kinds of people will be carrying guns
pretty much all the time. The evident implication is that the bad
guys have to be disarmed on the streets if rates of gun violence are
to decline, and that, I think, implies a range of interventions
far removed from what gun control advocates have recently urged
on the American population.

Another thing you are missing, in the UK "gun culture" is synonymous with gang and criminality. In North America, not so much. You keep forgetting what this graphic explains quite well:

[shadowrider]

46. And the beat, in Chicago, goes on. This was last night

Four teens - two 13-year-olds and two 16-year-olds - were shot within a half hour in the city's Englewood and Gresham neighborhoods on the South Side, according to police.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-chicago-gun-violence-shooting-july-21-july-22-south-side-west-side-north-side-crime-20120721,0,5529900.story

[Lionessa]

49. And that, to me, is why this type should get more media time than Aurora ...

because Aurora is done with deaths from guns for a while, I expect, whereas in Povertyland, USA it is an ongoing problem adding up to way more death and destruction per annum or longer.

[alabama_for_obama]

61. Most Americans

Dont care about poor people. And I have heard more than a few bigots express their glee about black on black crime and shootings. Sickening.

But then we knew that. Drugs are only really a problem when middle class white kids do them, etc.

[gejohnston]

67. Not all poor people are black

They don't care about poor white and Hispanic people either.

[Starboard Tack]

7. Designated gun free zones are nothing more than target rich environments, when not enforced

There, fixed it for you.

[shadowrider]

8. And what is your plan, oh wise one, for enforcing this? n/t

[Starboard Tack]

16. Seems to work at airports and courthouses very well.

Phew, that took a lot of figuring out. I feel quite exhausted.

Like it or not, we now live in a world of CCTV and every other hi-tech gadget imaginable. Lethal firearms are already obsolete as tools of self defense. But everyone doesn't realize that yet.

[hack89]

19. Because airports and courthouses have metal detectors and armed guards.

if your solution is metal detectors and armed guards at every public venue then you might have a point. Is that your solution?

[shadowrider]

21. So your solution is metal detectors and TSA at every establishment in the U.S.? n/t

[alabama_for_obama]

31. obsolete how?

because after you have been mugged and shot to death, the police will be might able to catch the perpetrator? that helps a dead victim how?

[rl6214]

3. Typical tripe from another clueless anti-gun zealot

[Thinkingabout]

27. How many shots do you think could have been fired without an assault weapon?

This is where the problem lies, civilians do not need rapid fire weapons and armor piercing bullets in order to hunt. Also in the wrong hands bad decisions are made. We also have vehicles capable of high speeds but there are speed limits for a reason.

[shadowrider]

28. HINT: His weapon is what you call semi-automatic. i.e.

one trigger pull, one shot. It was not full auto from what I've read. How is one trigger pull, one shot, rapid fire?

Just curious.

[alabama_for_obama]

32. one trigger pull, one shot

Can be very rapid fire in the hands of a skilled marksman. Even with a bolt action rifle. any weapon that holds more than one round at a time can be emptied downrange and often accurately to boot in very short order.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. sooooo... ban nearly every firearm made in the last 100 years? Shit I have a 120 year old rifle

that holds five rounds

[shadowrider]

44. I understand. The concept being put forth by our anti-gun talibanners though

is a machine gun.

"OMG, he had a 100 round drum (which jammed)". They think he just held the trigger.

Yes, one trigger pull one shot can be rapid, but it's not the rapid they're thinking of.

[alabama_for_obama]

33. if he had any skill, quite a few

The record so far as I know, or maybe the gold standard at least, is the "mad minute." 60 full power rifle rounds fired on target at 100yds in 60 seconds. most people can't do that, but when a crazy guy has a room packed full of people, I'm pretty sure accurate targeting would be less than important.

[PavePusher]

43. Errr, not quite... accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute

[PavePusher]

37. And it's stunningly obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. n/t

[rl6214]

39. Just as many if not more

You do know that Cho, the Virginia Tech shooter got of 170 shots killing 32 and injuring 17 using 10 round magazines. He reloaded 17 times. There were no armor piercing bullets, just like this guy didn't use any armor piercing bullets. It wasn't a rapid fire weapon, just your normal SEMI-AUTOMATIC handgun.

"We also have vehicles capable of high speeds but there are speed limits for a reason. "

And no one EVER speeds and breaks the law, right?

[liberal N proud]

4. We will just put more searches in place as we enter events or establishments.

[shadowrider]

5. Great. I can't wait for TSA to grab my junk when going out or a burger or the movies n/t

[Starboard Tack]

50. The rest of us love it.

We love having to stand in line and having strangers grab our junk. Of course, they only do it to humiliate and embarrass and delay us. It has nothing to do with the fact there are loonies walking around with guns and bombs looking for a "target rich environment".

[Fresh_Start]

12. Just one but its going to have to happen at the Capitol itself...nt

nt

[petronius]

29. Perhaps not a massacre, but the Capitol has not been entirely immune

from violence over the years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_shooting_incident_%281998%29

[Tejas]

14. As long as the 800lb gorilla known as socio-economic/mental health problems

is ignored in this country, then expect no less. In the meantime, enjoy bitching about an inanimate object.

[GarroHorus]

24. No matter how much you dream of it, the guns are not going away.

The second amendment is here to stay and the guns will never go away.

Get used to it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

36. How Many Massacres Will It Take for Politicians to Stand Up For National Mental Health?

please. god.

[PavePusher]

38. It was not an assault rifle. Stop spreading a falacious meme. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

42. It's been pointed out so many times, one can assume the conflation is deliberate.

[Ter]

47. If one woman has 12 abortions, do you want to ban then all too?

I would hope you would at least be consistent.

[shadowrider]

48. Oh snap n/t

[PDJane]

64. You won't, because they don't care about you.

The whole gun thing is touted as a 'basic freedom' as part of the right wing nonsense that spews over the air day after day, year in and year out.

Lack of universal health care is a 'freedom.'

Lack of pollution control is a 'freedom.'

Lack of banking regulation is a 'freedom.'.

Lack of food regulations are a 'freedom.'

Seems to me that the 'American people' could easily die of 'freedom.'

[Tejas]

68. ML King was denied 'basic freedom'

The local Sheriff denied his application for concealed carry.

[Tejas]

65. Bloomy was dancing in the blood less than 8hrs after the shooting.

http://newyork.newsday.com/news/nation/batman-shooting-bloomberg-urges-gun-control-after-colorado-attack-1.3849793

Batman shooting: Bloomberg urges gun control after Colorado attack
Published: July 20, 2012 9:42 AM