ILLINOIS GOV. PROPOSES STATE ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN

[xchrom]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ASSAULT_WEAPONS_BAN_ILLINOIS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-07-31-13-48-27

CHICAGO (AP) -- Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn is proposing a statewide ban on assault weapons.

The Chicago Democrat used his amendatory veto power Tuesday to call for changes in a bill related to in-state ammunition sales. It's now up to lawmakers to accept or reject the changes.

The deadly Colorado movie theater shooting has sparked renewed debate about assault weapons, and anti-violence advocates have called for similar discussions in Chicago.

Illinois is the only state without a concealed carry law, but an assault weapons ban still is likely to face hurdles.

[aikoaiko]

1. Illinois -- still taking the tax revenue from ArmaLite Arms the creators of the AR-15.

LOL.

[-..__...]

3. Are any of these purveyors of fine semi-automatic firearms still located in IL?

D.S. Arms, Inc., Eagle Arms, Les Baer Custom, Inc., Rock River Arms, Inc., and Springfield Armory.

[DonP]

6. IIRC Les Baer packed it up and crossed the river to Iowa

Before something like this stupidity happened.

But it's not like Illinois needs to keep those high paying skilled machinist jobs anyway, right?

[Reasonable_Argument]

2. Well that's just brilliant

He just gave Romneybot a few more percentage points in the polls I'm sure.

[truebrit71]

4. Not the smartest of moves by Gov. Quinn...

....that'll get the down-state "they're coming for your guns" crowd all fired-up...way to go

[calmeco702]

5. Down staters have had it with the

Cook County Crooks and their position on gun control.

[PavePusher]

7. This Illinois government?

http://www.wgntv.com/news/newsatfive/investigations/



The Illinois government that likes to line it's individual pockets?

[ileus]

8. Destroying freedom....how progressive.

[DonP]

9. In the meantime he's fucking the unions over royally

Before you gun control believers decide to applaud Quinn for his "courage", keep in mind that he's shorted the state employee union pension funds by $83 billion ... so far.

He called for a special session to deal with the pension shortfall, but now he's going to try and get this passed instead. Instead of fixing that major problem he's going for a cheap photo op on this bill.

Our Downstate Dems will most likely stop it, but it's a distraction from his failure to fix the pensions.

[rrneck]

10. All caps.

[xchrom]

12. yes. if you follow the link -- AP does that so -- DOG CROSSES STREET would be all caps. nt

[rrneck]

13. Ah. I stand corrected. Sorry. nt

[Hoyt]

11. Gutsy and smart man. I bet that'll have the militia types in the state all up in arms.

[Missycim]

15. Do you wait for stories like this?

To come in and throw a line like that to get a reaction?

[Pacafishmate]

16. It's best to ignore him.

If you don't feed this type of individual, it will take its attempts elsewhere

[Hoyt]

20. Been right here a whole lot longer than you, I think.

[Pacafishmate]

22. That doesn't change your motivation.

[Missycim]

34. You have been a member longer then I but

I have witnessed you for a long time and your are predicable

[Hoyt]

37. "Predictable" -- so is every member of gun culture.

You guys' post the same tired rationales for arming up society, selling more guns, standing your ground, support of NRA, shooting unarmed teenagers, and similar "guns are great" crud. Sadly, most of the responses related to guns are the very same junk we'd find on free republic and similar sites.

[HALO141]

41. Your objections and "rationales" have remained

remarkably consistent over time. It seems odd that you would accuse others of responding to you with less than ground breaking originality.

[Hoyt]

44. My post are consistent because gun lovers are consistently wrong about guns in society.

Just because your beliefs on all things guns are echoed by NRA and other right wing organizations, doesn't mean they are correct or good for anyone but those who can't live without a bunch of guns.

[HALO141]

50. Just your opinion. You have a right to it.

I will retain my right to mine.

[ellisonz]

33. Hoyt was actually spot on this time.

The NRA Illinois Nazi Militia types are going to be all up in arms.

[spin]

19. I know a fair number of individuals in Florida who own "black rifles" ...

and not one is a militia member. Of course perhaps I should point out that I don't know anyone who belongs to an organized militia.

[Hoyt]

21. I can imagine what they are like and what they are preparing to "defend" themsleves from.

Don't have to be in a "miltia" to be a militia/KKK/etc. type.

[spin]

23. Nor do you have to be a "militia/KKK.etc, type" to own one ...

Once at one of the ranges I shot at in the Tampa Bay area a member of a militia organization showed up attempting to recruit members. We made him feel very uncomfortable and he left and never returned.

You obviously feel that only reason a person buys a "black rifle" is for self defense but such weapons make a poor choice as a self defense weapon in an urban area. A shotgun is far more effective and presents less danger to your neighbors. A handgun offers advantages in a home as it is far easier to handle in tight quarters.

If I move to a very rural area without close neighbors I might consider buying an assault style rifle for self defense but I most likely use it for target shooting, as they are very accurate, or hunting feral hog which are a common pest in Florida and the meat can be very tasty if prepared correctly. Feral hogs do have sharp tusks and can be dangerous. They have treed many hunters. Having a semiautomatic firearm can be an advantage while hunting hog.

Of course I might simply choose my S&W .44 magnum handgun to hunt hog.

In passing you do have a vivid imagination.

[Hoyt]

24. Again, you may be the most wonderful gun owner in America. But that is not my experience with most.

Particularly those with a bunch of guns; who carry all the time; have fears of "criminals" (which is often just code for what you know they would say if with their "shootin" buddies); and worse.

[Jenoch]

25. Your experience

with gun owners in your area certainly is not indicative of the behavior of 'most' gun owners in the U.S. I know many, many gun owners and I don't know a single one who carries a concealed weapon without a CCW.

[Hoyt]

29. Zimmerman and Stawicki had a permit too, to name a few.

I suspect a lot of gun owners around you carry without a permit.

Doesn't really matter, the biggest racist/bigot I ever knew always carried and had a permit. Even though permitted, he still carried a gun primarily because of his hatred of minorities. I think a lot of gun owners are like that. In fact, the majority of gun owners are right wingers -- and most of them are racist/bigots. You do the Venn diagrams if you can't visualize this.

[gejohnston]

32. there is no evidence

according to the FBI that Zimmerman is a racist. Stawicki was just off his fucking rocker.

[Hoyt]

46. He stalked and shot an unarmed teenager for being Black -- proof enough for me. Why not you?

[gejohnston]

51. because that is not what the evidence shows

but that will come out in the trial. Florida DAs are notorious for leaking questionable to false information to poison the jury pool.

[HALO141]

42. Quite the opposite.

In fact, I know several who have permits but still don't carry.

[Jenoch]

48. And yet you

are painting all gun owners with the same brush. Do you REALLY believe that position to be true of ALL gun owners?

Most gun owners are racist/bigots? Wow. There is no Venn diagram for what you suggest. Do you have a link to a study or factual evidence to support your outlandish claims?

With that statement you should lose credibility with even the most ardent anti-gunners.

The 'gun nuts' in Georgia might more closely resemble what you say you have observed, but that certainly does not make it true of the entire United States. That is just completely illogical and unproven. You certainly are entitled to you wacky, unsubstantiated opinions however.

[Ashgrey77]

62. There he goes, running away with those goalposts again...........

[Starboard Tack]

35. I wonder what percentage of CCW holders were hall monitors in school.

[spin]

30. Admittedly I know mostly regular target shooters ...

and most held profession jobs. They represented a wide cross section of our society. Some were doctors or worked in the medical healthcare system as technicians or nurses. Some were engineers or technicians who worked on equipment for our defense industry or for NASA and many of these held government security clearances. Some worked as managers in banks or were reality agents. Some were merely factory workers but worked in well paying jobs. Several ran their own business. One was a retired carpenter. One was a retired computer programmer who worked on the software to land the Viking probes on Mars and would often ask me to test software he was writing on my computer. One was a retired fireman from New York City and one was a retired police chief of Cincinnati Ohio who also taught concealed carry classes. One was a firearms instructor and guard for Brinks Security. Many were active police officers or retired from a police force. One of those was a retired armorer for the St. Petersburg police department as well as a known competitive target shooter who had won many tournaments. (He helped me improve my shooting ability considerably.)

One owned bars and restaurants in New Jersey and Florida and lived in a mansion with gold faucets in his bathrooms. He also had an extensive collection of firearms some of which were very valuable. He was the one truly rich member of our group. We were mostly middle or lower middle class.

Most were in the age bracket of 40 to 70.

We used to sit a a long table in the lobby of the range and spend hours discussing politics and computers. Occasionally we would go out on the range to shoot but we rarely talked about firearms unless one of us had purchased a new weapon. It was great fun to sit at that table. Most of the attendees were conservatives which is understandable as Democrats have a long history of wishing to impose draconian gun control. Many of those at the table had a considerable collection of firearms and had invested a significant amount of money into their enjoyment of shooting. You might be surprised but only about 50% were members of the NRA. Many had been but were put off by the constant propaganda and requests for donations from the NRA-ILA. Not surprisingly many had concealed carry permits and carried on a regular basis.

Of course many shooters would wander into the range to try out a new weapon and would often proudly show us their target. Usually it looked like they had used a shotgun at a long range rather than a handgun at 25 yards or less. We were always polite and would point out that they needed more practice and try to help them improve. Some were interested enough to start attending the range on a regular basis and we often would go out with them and try to help correct their faults. Some became competent handgun shooters over time and joined our group.

Obviously our circle of friends and acquaintances differ.

I expect that you will reply with a thinly veiled insult against me and my friends but that is fine. I will merely laugh at it.

[Hoyt]

49. We agree, most gun types are conservatives. You won't admit it, but that also means most are bigots.

What I've been saying for a long time.

[rDigital]

63. Cool false dilemma, bro.

[xxenderwigginxx]

65. You need new material

[Hoyt]

66. No, you need to take a dimmer view of conservatives and linked gun culture.

[spin]

67. I realize that in our nation at this time ...

there is a lot of hatred between the members of different political parties.

Democrats make insulting remarks about Republicans and Republicans make insulting remarks about Democrats. Conservatives and Liberals can't get along. This is the basic reason that our leaders can't make any progress on the important issues that face this nation.

Our nation is like a Roman galley.



Currently many of the rowers on the right side of the boat are refusing to row and are yelling and screaming insults at the rowers on the left side. The rowers on the left side are also cursing at the rowers on the right and have largely pulled their oars out of the water. The galley is making little headway against a strong wind and choppy water. The boat needs a good captain to take charge and insist the rowers on both sides on the boat start getting along and resume rowing.

[Hoyt]

68. So, what are you willing to give up regarding your guns?

[friendly_iconoclast]

78. Firstly, what are *you* willing to give up? In the spirit of compromise, of course...

[Hoyt]

80. Don't think there is much else you need to get access to any gun you need to feel good. NRA and

right wing Congress has seen to that.

If there is some law I can support that will make you feel better about all the guns you have, and the ones you carry into public places, I'll consider it.

[spin]

81. Regarding my small collection of firearms ...

not a single one.

I see no reason to give up any of them. None would qualify as an assault weapon has they are mostly revolvers and semi-auto pistols designed for target shooting. I do own a bolt action Mauser and a double barreled coach gun.

But even if I owned an assault style semi-auto rifle or several, I would see no reason to turn them in. The idea that gun bans or confiscations would decrease violent gun crime is foolish. Liberal Democrats who dislike firearm owners always seem to want to ban something. Ban evil looking black rifles, ban high capacity magazines, ban ownership of several thousand rounds of ammo.

Such ideas have little chance of ever becoming law in our nation and are largely a waste of time. It may be possible to pass such legislation in some states but not nationwide.

What we need to do as a nation is to insist that the states update the NICS background system with the names of those who have a criminal record or have been legally adjudged as having severe mental issues on a timely basis. This should present absolutely no problem as it is already law.

Then we need to try to expand the NICS system and require it be used for the sale of all firearms including all private sales. This may prove difficult if not impossible because the conservatives will oppose such an idea.

Of course we need to improve our mental healthcare system and those who deal with people with mental issues should be required to report individuals they honestly believe have serious mental issues and might be violent to the proper authorities. Once again this might be extremely difficult or impossible as it might infringe on individual rights as well has mental patient rights to have treatment data held confidential between the individual and his doctor.

Since 80% percent of all gun violence is caused from criminal activity or gang warfare between drug gangs, it would make sense to target such activity. One thing that we could do is to fight the practice of straw purchasing firearms as this is often used to bypass the NICS background check by criminals. I would suggest that anyone who engaged in the practice of straw purchasing firearms for resale to gun smuggling organizations or a criminal should be charged as an accessory to any crime committed with the firearms he/she bought. If a few people who engage in the straw purchase of firearms end up charged as an accessory to murder, the message may get out.

We also need to realize as a nation that our War on Drugs is and has been a TOTAL failure. We need to legalize the sale of some drugs such as marijuana and possibly cocaine in order to much of the profit out of dealing drugs.

To be blunt but realistic, our educational system sucks. It is stuck in the last century and we need to move it into the current century and use technology to teach. Most of our youth are computer literate and enjoy playing games on a computer but absolutely hate sitting in a classroom. I watched my grand children playing World of Warcraft and realized that they were learning far more about economics than they were learning in their high school. Such games could easily be adapted to a school environment to teach history, science or mathematics. The result, in my opinion, would be students better trained to get good jobs that payed a living wage rather than being merely qualified to be hamburger flippers.

My son in law and I were discussing how we could improve gun control laws in our nation today and he suggested that anyone who buys a firearm or ammo should have a license. To obtain such a license the requirements would include firearm safety training, finger printing, a serious background check and a trip to a gun range to prove that the applicant can safely shoot such a weapon. He also suggested an mental heath evaluation but I'm not sure that there are enough philologists or psychiatrists in our nation to handle the load. Of course once an individual obtained such a license he/she would be allowed to buy any weapon he/she wished and carry a concealed weapon if he/she wished.

Of course you and many others who post here will disagree with me and point out that we should simply ban certain firearms and high capacity magazines and this would solve the problem. In a perfect world such ideas might work but we don't live in a utopia. Reality is a bitch. At this time pushing for such ideas is a waste of time and damages our party. In today's political environment such ideas are impossible to implement and would do little or nothing to solve the problem

Of course many of my ideas would be very impossible to implement. That's why in the post that you replied to I compared our current national situation to a Roman galley with uncooperative rowers on both the right and left side of the boat.

[Ashgrey77]

14. So, there's a shooting in my home state (Colorado),

and the answer to that is to ban "assault weapons" in all of Illinois.

[DonP]

17. Quinn claims the Illinois sailor was killed by an "assault weapon"?

That's why he was demanding the ban (which he won't get, our downstate Dems have already told him to drop it.)

Funny, I haven't heard the autopsy results from any of the murdered people, have any of you?

The police reported that he dropped the AR15 fairly quickly when the cheap ass Chinese beta mag jammed and shifted to the Remington 870 (IIRC) and his 2 handguns.

If it turns out the sailor was actually killed by the shotgun will Quinn call for a ban on pump actions shotguns?

Or could he just have been pandering to what he thought was the zeitgeist du jour?

[benEzra]

18. Ummm, rifles accounted for less than 0.7% of Illinois murders in in 2010.

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2010, Table 20, Murder by State and Type of Weapon, there were 453 murders reported to the FBI in the entire state of Illinois in 2010.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl20.xls

All styles of rifles *combined*, including "assault weapons", accounted for 3 (yes, three) of them. That's less than 0.7% of reported Illinois homicides being committed with ANY rifle of ANY description. Tell me again how civilian rifles with handgrips that stick out are such an existential crime problem in Illinois...

FWIW, my AR (Rock River Arms 16" midlength) was made in Illinois. I would not be surprised if Illinois is the leading producer of the AR-15 platform, and I'm certain they are in the top three.

[gopiscrap]

26. Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!

[4th law of robotics]

28. Why do you say that?

Weapons covered in the AWB are used in crimes only very rarely.

The last AWB did nothing to reduce crimes in the US.

So why do you think this is a good idea?

[eagle308us]

31. Do you want it to mirror

the federal Assault Weapons Ban from 1994 to 2004?

[4th law of robotics]

27. Chicago has some of the strictest gun regulations in the country so logically they should be . . .

. . almost entirely crime free.

Chicago is crime free isn't it?

[bongbong]

54. NRA Talking Point #12

"Laws don't stop criminals, so why have laws?"

I think you win an award for posting (a variant) of this tired old NRA Talking Point for the millionth time on DU!

Your prize is a lifesize poster of Rambo, suitable for framing.

[gejohnston]

55. So Chicago

USVI, and DC have low murder rates? Oh yeah, Rambo used a bow and a big assed knife most of the time.

[bongbong]

58. Zoom!

Another example of strictly-literal thinking from our buddies, the gun-relgionists.

[gejohnston]

59. another example of

complete non thinking by any of our buddies, the control fundamentalists

[4th law of robotics]

56. "Laws don't stop criminals, so why have laws?"

What a crazy thought.

Could you cite where anyone here or the (dreaded!) NRA actually made such a claim?

/saying that certain laws don't work based on mountains of historical evidence isn't the same thing as saying all laws don't work. But you knew that didn't you?

[bongbong]

57. Laughs

I know gun-relgionists are literal-thinkers. That's why I put "a variant" in my post. If you don't know what "a variant" means, you can try http://www.dictionary.com

[4th law of robotics]

60. Do you know what a strawman argument is?

Or did you invent the concept independently?

You're arguing against claims no one has made then acting snide when asked for evidence.

If you have to fall back on false claims to prove your point then perhaps it isn't worth proving. Just something for you to mull over.

[bongbong]

69. Strawman

You mean like "You gun grabbers want to take all our guns away! OH MY PRECIOUS DON'T LEAVE ME!!!!"

[4th law of robotics]

70. And you do it again

When confronted with the false logic of his argument the patient responded with hysterical laughter and further bizarre claims.

Perhaps it's time to try medication.

[bongbong]

73. Just trying to help you

I know gun-reglionists are literal-thinkers, and I was trying to help you in your struggle to understand the concepts in my post.

[4th law of robotics]

74. Your post was nonsensical

and your abhorrence of literal thinking reminds me of the claim one of you people made (maybe you, hard to keep track as they all seem the same) that some things just don't have to be studied.

That's some non-literal thinking there.

[bongbong]

75. abhor

> and your abhorrence of literal thinking

I don't abhor it, I just see how it limits one's understanding of reality. Perhaps this is the reason for gun-religionists great dependence on weapons to deal with everyday life.



> he claim one of you people made (maybe you, hard to keep track as they all seem the same) that some things just don't have to be studied.

I never claimed that, so it's irrelevant. Keep trying, peanut!

[4th law of robotics]

76. You're boring

That's a pretty grave sin on a forum like this.

I've yet to see you contribute any new idea or really advance any conversation you're a part of in any way.

Really all you do is post something contrary (no facts to support it of course) then latch on to anyone who will reply and accuse them of literal thinking or being a theist for disagreeing with your poorly penned op-eds.

Have you ever felt like you were actually a benefit to anyone but yourself? Because if so you were probably wrong.

[bongbong]

79. Education is boring

Education is boring if you compare it to the excitement that gun-relgionists get from stroking their Precious.

[HALO141]

93. So is your relentless goading of everyone who doesn't agree with you.

[rDigital]

64. Cool straw man, bro.

[4th law of robotics]

77. That's all he has

real people won't play with him any more.

[Starboard Tack]

36. Baby steps, but in the right direction.

Oh the wailing!

[gejohnston]

38. right direction to what?

Not the right direction of ending violence, since the people who will be losing the guns won't are not committing the violence. The guns mentioned are not used in violence. In other words, you are supporting pointless theater produced by politicians that have no interest in finding real solutions to the problems, and are often part of the problems themselves.

But then, it is easier for politicians to scapegoat the gun club down the road than step on the toes of gangs.
But then, why do politicians and community organizers sit down with the gangs while demonize the skeet shooter someplace else? Seems more self serving than anything else.
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2012/Gangs-and-Politicians-An-Unholy-Alliance/

[Starboard Tack]

39. That's why they are baby steps

The only way to truly lead is by example. That's why we should elect leaders who have the balls to stand up to the corporate bullies and their frontmen.
You can remodel your house, but if the foundation is rotten, then it needs to be rebuilt, not spackled and painted.

[gejohnston]

40. you didn't read the linked article did you?

nor did you pay close attention to the post. The only corporate bullies are the drug gangs, those same gangs Chicago politicians are in bed with. There is no corporate conspiracy. All of the gun companies combined are smaller than NetFlex. That includes Glock and FN, which are European (Belgian and Austrian respectively).

I think you have been listening to Alex Jones and Michael Parenti too much.

[cleanhippie]

71. Read the article (as hand waves away the facts)?

Why would he do that? At least he can claim ignorance of what it actually says. It still continues to be willful ignorance, but ignorance nonetheless.

[4th law of robotics]

43. The last AWB failed to reduce violence at all

why do you feel this one will be different?

[Starboard Tack]

45. I don't. That's why I said baby steps.

Gotta start somewhere if you want to run a marathon. In politics it takes balls to go against the grain, and that's how you get change.

[4th law of robotics]

47. So you realize it's worthless

but still support it?

How does that make any sense?

[Starboard Tack]

82. I support him for having the balls to stand up to a mob mentality.

It is not worthless. It is also not the answer, just a baby step like medical marijuana laws. They are not the answer, but a step in the right direction.

[4th law of robotics]

86. Funny how democracy sounds scary when you just call it "mob mentality"

Fighting to keep gays from getting married? Nope, just standing up to the mob!

Fighting to keep blacks in the back of the bus? Nope, just standing up to the mob!

And since the ban did absolutely nothing to reduce crime how is that even a baby step in the right direction? I'm assuming that you consider the right direction to be towards a safer country right?

[Starboard Tack]

90. Fighting for gay rights is standing up to the mob mentality

Civil rights marches were fighting the mob. Don't insult those movements by comparing gun "rights" to civil rights. I don't advocate any bans but I support sensible restrictions in terms of what and where.

[4th law of robotics]

91. Not once a majority support it

then you're fighting the mob. As with gun control.

Don't insult those movements by comparing gun "rights" to civil rights.

So the second amendment isn't in the bill of rights? Or maybe it has an asterix next to it that says "nah, just kidding".

Either all our rights count or none of them do. Once you decide they can be freely given away who says people will stop with just one?

[GreenStormCloud]

53. The resultant change would be a change of politicians.

Voters have demonstrated in many elections that they don't want more gun control.

[Starboard Tack]

83. Unfortunately, you may well be right.

But he keeps his integrity, which will hopefully be remembered when the pendulum swings. And as we all know, it does swing.

[Equate]

87. Integrity?

Using the word integrity for a Chicago politician is, at best, an oxymoron.
Quinn has Integrity?

[DonP]

88. Integrity? Yeah, that's why he helped short Union pensions by $83 Billion

They might want to do a better job of choosing their gun grabbing heroes.

One of their gun control friends was praising Scott Walker down here last fall and all of them love them some Bloomberg. And now Quinn, after breaking several state union contracts and pissing away $83 Billion with a "B" in pension money, is a hero.

I guess they really don't give a shit what else they do, Dem or GOP, as long as they sound like a gun grabber, that's enough for them to cheer.

Now the bad news. The legislature is meeting for one day next week to deal with the pension shortfall and the broken contracts next week. Quinn's bullshit speech suckered them all in. The Downstate Dems have already said no fucking way to him on an AWB for the state.

[Starboard Tack]

89. I don't know the man apart from his stance on this, which shows integrity

[gejohnston]

92. integrity if he truly believes it

otherwise he is pandering.

[HALO141]

61. And some would say

that's what the tea party's doing.


Ahm just sayin.

[Starboard Tack]

84. Absolutely! It's up to us what kind of change we want.

Do we really want to become a third world country? Or do we want to hone our system, and update our constitution, as most of the rest of the world is trying to do, with varying results?
Most industrialized countries don't have issues such as gun massacres and armed civilians walking the streets, no universal healthcare and capital punishment.
The Tea Party would like to take us back to a frontier mentality of the 1800s.

[gejohnston]

85. neither do third world countries

in fact, most third world countries have UK and DC style gun laws, with Chicago and DC murder rates. Then there is the rest of the US, Bulgarian and Czech Republic................................................................
Update our Constitution? to what? Like I explained before, the "civilized east" had more toters than the frontier. You really should study the social history of the western US, you might actually learn something.

[Lint Head]

52. Do it ILL!