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Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:10 AM

 

I am not a sheepdog

&feature=share&list=UU1g6qVecwvA-M2T0TJ9UIZg

Solid video on, what I have personally seen to be, the mindset of the average concealed carrier and the use of firearms for self-defense.

Remember, It's not a police badge, it's a license to carry for your own protection.

28 replies, 5206 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 28 replies Author Time Post
Reply I am not a sheepdog (Original post)
rDigital Sep 2012 OP
former-republican Sep 2012 #1
Oneka Sep 2012 #2
rDigital Sep 2012 #3
Berserker Sep 2012 #4
trouble.smith Sep 2012 #5
Reasonable_Argument Sep 2012 #6
Trunk Monkey Sep 2012 #7
trouble.smith Sep 2012 #8
Callisto32 Sep 2012 #9
trouble.smith Sep 2012 #10
Trunk Monkey Sep 2012 #17
PavePusher Sep 2012 #20
Trunk Monkey Sep 2012 #22
PavePusher Sep 2012 #23
Trunk Monkey Sep 2012 #24
PavePusher Sep 2012 #25
DanTex Sep 2012 #11
Reasonable_Argument Sep 2012 #12
holdencaufield Sep 2012 #13
Reasonable_Argument Sep 2012 #14
DWC Sep 2012 #18
Trunk Monkey Sep 2012 #19
PavePusher Sep 2012 #21
Atypical Liberal Oct 2012 #26
DanTex Oct 2012 #27
Atypical Liberal Oct 2012 #28
GreenStormCloud Sep 2012 #15
holdencaufield Sep 2012 #16

Response to rDigital (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:20 AM

1. Well thought out articulate video presentation

 

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Response to rDigital (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 12:42 AM

2. Well stated sentiments on carrying for

his own personal protection. There is an entire theme that he chose not to talk about at all.
The civil and criminal liability you place yourself into , if you choose to intervene in an ongoing
asault, and use a firearm to end a threat to another person. Taking on $10,000 or more in personal
loss to defend a court case even in a fully justified defense shooting, can bankrupt someone in a hurry.
Being sued later on by the family of the deceased/injured, can also bankrupt someone.
In my state, it is legal to intervene in an assault and defend another person,however, if that person isn't a member of my
family, or very close friend, the costs would be simply, too high for my intervention.

That sentiment may sound incredibly callous and greedy, but my state had an opportunity to put a law in place
to protect a defender from criminal and civil liability, but my governor chose to veto the bill, meh.

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Response to Oneka (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:37 AM

3. Thank goodness we have tort reform here in Ohio.

 

If the aggressor is committing a felony or misdemeanor of violence against you and you use force against them they and their family have no civil recourse to sue your for damages afterwards.

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Response to rDigital (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:52 AM

4. Now that was a great

 

heart felt video. Thank you for posting it. He stated what a CCW really is for protection of himself his family and his friends.

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Response to rDigital (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 01:56 AM

5. I'm no sheepdog, I'm the shepherd.

 

Collectively, we CCW carriers are actually a herd immunity mechanism. while we may not be sheepdogs, we aren't your ordinary run of the mill sheep either. so, while our motives tend to be quite selfish, our existence within the sheep population makes life difficult for the wolves. It's very similar to vaccinations whereby not all but a portion of a given poulation is vaccinated against a particular pathogen. This "herd immunity" greatly reduces the influence that the pathogen has over the population. IOW, it may be able to infect a few sheep here or there but it is unable to completely ravage the population.

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Response to trouble.smith (Reply #5)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:32 AM

6. That's a very good way to look at it nt

 

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Response to rDigital (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 03:47 AM

7. Sheep Dogs scare the Hell out of me.

 

To be perfectly honest “sheep dogs” scare me, they strike me as the type of person that is carrying a gun just waiting for a chance to be “a hero”. Any time I carry a gun (which is all the time) I am incurring the risk of liability and I am accepting full responsibility for my actions. Why would I want to add to that risk by deliberately interjecting myself into a situation that has nothing to do with me? Also how am I fulfilling my responsibility to protect my family by adding to their risk (of losing their primary provider) by so doing?

It has been my experience that those, in the permit holder community, who seek the title of sheepdog, tend to be authoritarians who use it as a means of self aggrandizement. They tend to derive their feelings of self worth from the position of quasi authority they assume their permit gives them.

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Response to Trunk Monkey (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 04:06 AM

8. if you were in that theater in Aurora, and you were carrying

 

and in a position to put a slug in the back of Holme's head, would you have?

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Response to trouble.smith (Reply #8)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 06:27 AM

9. How could one NOT?

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Response to Callisto32 (Reply #9)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 06:36 AM

10. precisely. nt

 

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Response to trouble.smith (Reply #8)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 09:58 AM

17. If I was in the theater in Aurora

 

And in the exact right position to put Holmes down, yes of course I would at least try.

That said there’s a huge difference from being in the exact right place at exact the right time and taking on the whole sheep dog persona.

The people that I have met that cling to that title scare me. They view themselves as some type of auxiliary to the police; they make it sound like they roam the city looking for miscreants to apprehend.

Like the guy in the video said, I am not equipped nor am I trained, nor do I have the police authority to guard “the flock” It’s not my place and it’s not my duty.

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Response to Trunk Monkey (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:38 PM

20. You seem to assume that the "sheepdog" actively seeks trouble and confrontation.

 

I don't think that's a correct interpretation of the, admitedly imperfect, meme.

The "sheepdog" keeps watch for trouble in their immediate area, not to seek it out, but to avoid, deflect or, if unavoidable, intercept. The "sheepdog" is not a hunter or patroller. While parts of the skillsets are overlapping (or, possibly, the sheepdog skills are a subset of the hunter/patroller skills), they are NOT the same.

Does that make a clearer analogy?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #20)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 07:36 PM

22. Follow these links over to THR

 

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=386866&highlight=sheepdog

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=340177&highlight=sheepdog


and then tell me some of these maniacs don't feel that sheepdogdom is nothing less than a call of God

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Response to Trunk Monkey (Reply #22)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 10:43 PM

23. Hey, I don't speak for anyone else.

 

And, admittedly, I used to have similar feelings. Some people change, some don't, some of my philosophies have evolved over the years, some haven't.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #23)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 12:03 AM

24. On most things we agree

 

That word however makes me react in my guts and I want no part of it.

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Response to Trunk Monkey (Reply #24)

Sun Sep 30, 2012, 12:10 PM

25. Fair enough.

 

Gotta go walk some dogs, have a great weekend!

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Response to rDigital (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 07:02 AM

11. Another "law abiding" gun owner...

Of course, I carried rifles, light machine guns, and pistols in Iraq before that, but this was different. It wasn't legal for me to carry at the time – I was under 21, and I was also in school. The university prohibited weapons on campus, but I didn't care. My 1911 – the only handgun I owned – became a constant companion. I had just returned from Iraq, and I was not about to die at home.

http://vuurwapenblog.com/2011/12/13/i-am-not-a-sheepdog/

This guy illustrates a lot of common traits of CCers. First, by illegally carrying a gun on a college campus that prohibited weapons, he demonstrated disregard both for the safety of others and for the law. And, obviously, he is not the least bit repentant -- on the contrary, he justified his illegal and dangerous activities based on his gross exaggerations of the risks faced by college students, along with the fantasy that the gun would protect him.

It also illustrated that a lot of CCers carry a gun address a psychological need, rather than anything having to do with safety. This guy got back from Iraq and had trouble adjusting to civilian life -- to the fact that a college campus in the US is not a combat zone. It's unfortunate that he decided to address his issues by illegally carrying a handgun rather than seeking help. A dog would have made a better (and safer) companion than a handgun, and I think in time he could have learned to be able to face life without a loaded weapon on his person at all times.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 07:08 AM

12. Because no one ever gets shot on a college campus right? nt

 

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Response to DanTex (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 07:12 AM

13. Letter from a Birmingham Jail

 

"There are just laws and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that an unjust law is no law at all... "

-- Martin Luther King

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Response to holdencaufield (Reply #13)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 07:23 AM

14. Good quote

 

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive."

Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787)

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Response to DanTex (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 10:36 AM

18. "Better to be judged by 12

 

than carried by 6".

"To willing comply with laws stripping your ability to defend yourself is the act of a subject, a slave, or a fool" - anon

I certainly am not a sheepdog but I will never be a defenseless sheep either.

Semper Fi,

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Response to DanTex (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:04 PM

19. Generally I disagree with you

 

This time, with the exception that I don't think this behavior illustrates a lot of common traits of CCers, I think you read this guy correctly

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Response to DanTex (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 02:44 PM

21. Yeah, some problems with your 'analysis'...

 

This guy illustrates a lot of common traits of CCers.

For which I'm sure you have supporting documentation and stats.... correct?

...the fact that a college campus in the US is not a combat zone.

No-one ever claimed they were the same. Crime, however, does occur on college campuses, up to and including violent attacks and murders. Why should one's defensive options be more limited on a campus than off-campus, with no remedial compensation?

A dog would have made a better (and safer) companion than a handgun

I'm sure you have stats for this too... and an explaination for how one deals with a dog on campus... usually pet-free zones, at least in buildings.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #11)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 04:07 PM

26. I don't have a problem with that at all.

 

First, by illegally carrying a gun on a college campus that prohibited weapons, he demonstrated disregard both for the safety of others and for the law.

Yup, he sure did. I personally don't care.

The man is a combat veteran of our armed forces. I would have no problem with him carrying a concealed firearm, even without a permit.

Secondly, Amy Bishop shot 6 people, killing 3 of them, in the very building where I have class. It was just luck that she committed her crime on a day I did not have class.

I strongly considered getting a CCW permit at that point, and carrying on campus even though it is prohibited (though not illegal).

I support CCW permit on college campuses, as there is no reason why a person who can safely carry a handgun down mainstreet cannot also carry one on a college campus.

on the contrary, he justified his illegal and dangerous activities based on his gross exaggerations of the risks faced by college students, along with the fantasy that the gun would protect him.

I don't think he exaggerated the risks faced by college students at all. Violent crime is pretty rare, especially if you are a white, college-educated man. Most people who carry concealed firearms will never need to use them. So what? There is nothing wrong with being prepared.

If it was a fantasy that firearms can protect the wielder than police would not bother carrying them.

This guy got back from Iraq and had trouble adjusting to civilian life

It did not sound that way to me at all. His motivations for carrying a concealed weapon are the same as anyone I've heard that carries a concealed weapon - they want the ability to defend themselves and their loved ones in the rare case that they are confronted with violence.

If you watch the video, he clearly says that when he got back from service he did not carry a firearm - until the Virginia Tech shooting, and then he started carrying. I don't think this has anything to do with PTSD, but rather the wakeup call that shootings happen even in gun-free places like college campuses. Many people have reached the same conclusion without ever being in the military.

A dog would have made a better (and safer) companion than a handgun...

Aw, shit. Next you'll be like the other dude telling us to throw cans of beans.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #26)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 05:12 PM

27. By my count, that makes four pro-gunners who have now...

...indicated that they don't feel that it matters whether someone illegally carries a concealed weapon, because those laws are unjust and therefore don't need to be followed. Interesting. I guess the distinction between the "law abiding" gun owners and the criminals isn't that clear after all.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #27)

Mon Oct 1, 2012, 07:18 PM

28. Not just "someone", this one.

 

By my count, that makes four pro-gunners who have now indicated that they don't feel that it matters whether someone illegally carries a concealed weapon, because those laws are unjust and therefore don't need to be followed. Interesting. I guess the distinction between the "law abiding" gun owners and the criminals isn't that clear after all.

Not just "someone", but this one in particular.

But to be honest, I think CCW permits are a waste of time and money and as such I'm not too broken up if otherwise law-abiding people don't follow this particular law. As the facts bear out, the only people who bother getting CCW permits are people who are highly law-abiding. Criminals don't bother with forms and expense and paperwork - they just stick the gun in their pants and call it good.

As many states are finding out, there's not much benefit or point to issuing CCW permits because the people who apply for them are hardly ever involved in crimes anyway. It's a big taxpayer-funded bureaucracy that achieves nothing. Just like Canada discovered about its long-arm registry - people hardly ever commit crimes with long arms, so why bother tracking the damn things?

"Public Safety Minister Vic Toews said the government’s actions are long overdue.

“It does nothing to help put an end to gun crimes, nor has it saved one Canadian life,”"


That is exactly what state governments are finding out about registering people who carry concealed firearms.

It cost Canada about $2 Billion to register about 7 million firearms. States are figuring out that this is an easy savings and they are better off investing the money in real crime fighting rather than tracking people who are almost never involved in crime.

I'm not to broken up about people who break marijuana laws, either.



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Response to rDigital (Original post)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 09:32 AM

15. Agreed. I have often posted, "I am not a Sheepdog, I am a Longhorn."

When the Spanish brought cattle to the New World, many of them escaped to run wild. Over a few centuries they evolved an enormous set of horns that enabled them to deal with coyotes, wolves and cougars. The Longhorn will not hurt the sheep, but will not protect them either. It protects itself and its calves very well.

The wolves, coyotes and cougars learned to leave the Longhorns alone.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #15)

Sat Sep 29, 2012, 09:35 AM

16. I am not a Sheepdog ...

 

... I am a Border Collie. All I can think of is herding people into tighter and tighter spaces. It's an obsession.


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