Two cases, two different endings

[oneshooter]

Elderly woman beaten to death in home invasion
A family is devastated by a brutal home invasion that left an 80-year-old woman dead and her husband severely injured. Investigators now believe they know what made the couple a target.

More :http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=8503583

Homeowner fatally shoots intruder
Police say one of the suspects who broke into an Oakmoor apartment home on Houston's south side was shot and killed overnight.
Authorities say two men broke into the apartment around 9pm with guns drawn. The man inside the apartment pulled out his gun and shot one of the men.

More:http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=8503584

I am certain that the usual" She should have used a Ninja sleeper hold" people will speak up. Also those who depend on the police to"defend and Protect" will yell loudly. Oh I forgot the "elderly can't handle a firearm" person will also speak up.

Also the "Judge, jury, Jesus and Exicutioner" folks will really be up in arms, along with the "he just wanted stuff" yellers. And lets not forget the "you don't know WHAT he wanted" folks.

So here they are, two incidents, two people dead.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[ileus]

1. the 80yo didn't pollute society with a death spewer....noble and moral even in death.

[oneshooter]

2. Then there are those who believe this.

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 02:52 PM
Starboard Tack (3,661 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

166. Of course they need to be able to defend themselves.

Guns are not the answer. Might as well give them clubs. I'm not saying a gun might not work for a minuscule percentage of folk if they were incredibly lucky, but the highest probability that they would be victimized by their own gun.

Their best defense against the marauding "thugs" is awareness training and behavior modification. The biggest problem is the growing culture of victimization, which is fed by the politics and marketing of fear.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/11727823#post166

[Starboard Tack]

3. Not when defending the home.

Your home is sacrosanct. I would not hesitate to use a firearm to defend my home. But you knew that. Don't confuse the indiscriminate carrying of firearms in public with home invasion. And please, don't call out members who are not yet participating in a thread. It may be permissible in DU3, but it is extremely poor etiquette.

[rrneck]

4. Define indiscriminate. nt

[Starboard Tack]

5. Misplace your dictionary?

Indiscriminate | Define Indiscriminate at Dictionary.com

not discriminating; lacking in care, judgment, selectivity, etc.: indiscriminate in one's friendships. 2. not discriminate; haphazard; thoughtless: indiscriminate ...

[rrneck]

9. Nice try.

How does the term apply to the issue at hand? Can you do that?

[Starboard Tack]

15. Think hard about why you don't carry your gun around

Now you have the answer. You are endowed with a discriminating mind. You actually think before you do something. Amazing concept for some folk.

I know they're all engineers and scientists and mathematicians. Nah, sorry. Not buying it.

I'm not talking about the one's who decide they don't need to carry in certain situations. I'm talking about the one's who can't take a shit or go to church without a gun and who would take it everywhere if allowed, even on a commercial flight, or in a courtroom, everywhere.

[rrneck]

21. Ah

Vague ventable moral opprobrium in lieu if something we might actually discuss.

Whatever.

[Starboard Tack]

24. Exactly!

[PavePusher]

44. Criminal attacks happen to/in/around churches.

And what would be wrong with a lawful person carrying a legal defensive weapon on a plane?

[Starboard Tack]

46. I don't fly. Why don't you ask the other passengers?

[PavePusher]

66. I'd ask the passangers of the 9/11 planes...

but they seem to be incommunicado right now.

[ileus]

6. So you'd protect yourself at home but not when out and about.

I know my life and family are just as valuable in other places as they are at home.

[Starboard Tack]

7. I'd defend myself and my family anywhere.

Outside of the home, I would not consider using a gun unless there were a credible threat beforehand. Carrying a gun on a routine basis is irrational to me and I believe it presents more of a potential threat than being without a firearm. I keep my eye on the weather. If there is a storm brewing, I take appropriate action. Guns and streets go together about as well as boats and rocks.

[Straw Man]

10. Yet for a large portion of your life...

... you choose not to avail yourself of the most effective means.

Outside of the home, I would not consider using a gun unless there were a credible threat beforehand.

What makes you think that threats will announce themselves for your convenience?

Carrying a gun on a routine basis is irrational to me and I believe it presents more of a potential threat than being without a firearm.

I believe that you are wrong, but you are welcome to live your life according to your beliefs.

I keep my eye on the weather. If there is a storm brewing, I take appropriate action.

There is no weather report for victimization by violent crime. The chain of events that leads up to an assault will be unknown and unknowable to the victim.

Guns and streets go together about as well as boats and rocks.

Struggling to make sense of this analogy... If you drop your gun in the street, it will get damaged?

[ileus]

11. trouble doesn't make an appointment.

If it did all any of us would ever need is an 870 and 00 buck.

[Starboard Tack]

14. Correct, I have not availed myself of a gun for most of my life.

And that has worked out just fine. After leaving a rural childhood environment to travel the world I had no use for a gun, barring the occasional hunting or sporting event. I lived in cities mostly and guns have no place in cities. For the past 20+ years I have lived on the ocean, another place where guns do not belong. That said, if I were to return to a rural environment, which is quite likely some day, I would very likely purchase a 12 gauge shotgun and possibly another hunting rifle. There would be no need for a handgun.

A credible threat, warranting my leaving home armed, would consist of a known prior or existing threat to my life or my family. Hate mail, anonymous threatening phone calls, that sort of thing. That would be my long term weather forecast.
Short term, would be exercising my awareness of my surroundings and acting accordingly. If I see a squall on the horizon, I have a choice, either try to outrun it, dodge it or seek safe harbor, if available; or use it to my advantage. My options are many and when abroad in the world, the thought of a gun doesn't enter the equation. I thank you for respecting my right not to carry a gun and I respect your right to carry one. My longevity and well traveled path have served to reassure me that my decision has been appropriate. Though I can think of instances along the way when, if I had been armed, I might have been tempted to take advantage and escalate a situation beyond my control. Fortunately, being unarmed, I was able to defuse many situations peacefully, with nobody getting hurt.

Can't help you with the last one. Sorry. Either you get it or you don't.

[mvccd1000]

16. Interesting, that last bit:

"...I can think of instances when, if I had been armed, I might have been tempted to take advantage and escalate a situation..."

I've noticed that when I carry, exactly the opposite happens. Whereas when I'm unarmed I may be tempted to flip someone off for a bonehead move in traffic, or give a dirty look to someone who cuts in line or steals a parking place, or walk into a 7-11 through a crowd of rowdy gangbangers, when I'm armed I simply let that stuff slide, or walk the other way. While I'm not confrontational by nature, I find that I'm even less so when carrying.

Perhaps if you feel the opposite would be true, you make the right choice by not doing so. (Hence my belief that it should be a personal decision; I have no idea what is the right choice for you.)

[ileus]

17. IMHO that's typical CCin' makes you more responsible and polite.

I suppose for most of us we realize what a great responsibility carrying a firearm is and we have much more respect for people and our actions in public.

In short it's how we make society not just safer but better...

[mvccd1000]

22. Very true, although I generally open carry.

I suppose now that Arizona has removed the requirement to get a permission slip to put on my jacket, I may consider concealing sometimes.

[Starboard Tack]

25. I'm not talking about road rage.

I'm referring to situations which were life threatening. Direct attacks by armed individuals. One had a machete. Another had a gun. Another tried to run me over with a truck. All resolved with no harm done to anyone, except I arrested two of them. Had to pull on other resources.

Glad to here you're not trigger happy. Probably the reason you're still alive.

[X_Digger]

27. "I arrested two of them"?

[Hoyt]

26. Wrong. The mere fact you strapped a gun on makes you confrontational.

[mvccd1000]

34. Why is that, Hoyt?

Would it be because certain segments of our society would like to confront me over that choice?

Does the mere fact that a woman visits a planned parenthood clinic make her confrontational?

I think you're imagining that YOUR desire to confront me means that I'M confrontational. There is a difference, you know...

[Hoyt]

35. If I were to venture out with my machete, that would be confrontational.

Why not a gum?

[ManiacJoe]

36. Are you sure you are using the right word here? "confrontational"??

[Hoyt]

38. Sure enough.

[PavePusher]

39. If you can't carry a potential weapon without being "confrontational", you should seek counseling.

Soon.

The vast majority of the rest of us actually have this thing called "self-control", and can regulate our actions.

The condition you are searching for, hoyt, is "maturity". Good luck in your search.

[Hoyt]

41. You have to look at it from the perspective of other people.

"Maturity" -- LMAO.

Someone walking around with a gun who is not in law enforcement is not exhibiting "maturity" -- far from it.

[PavePusher]

42. Advocating the Police State again. Vile. n/t

[Hoyt]

49. Come on, Pave. I'm not advocating a police state, just toters leaving their guns at home.

You can play with them there. It would be nice to see some of you guys gain a little perspective on your gun caches, but first let's keep them off the streets.

[ManiacJoe]

67. Add some perspective to the conversation.

What exactly is the problem you keep alluding to with licensed carriers actually carrying in public?

[BiggJawn]

55. Spearmint or Juicy Fruit?

Why not a gum indeed?

[BiggJawn]

54. "The wind is West at 12, and it's currently 71 degrees. The Credible Threat Index...

"...for the Metro area is 'Moderate", so you may want to take the 380 with you today..."

I'm sorry, I miss that part of the morning weather on TV.
Can I watch you use that crystal ball that tells you of threats beforehand?

[Starboard Tack]

61. Different environment old son. Don't worry. All is fine.

[PavePusher]

20. In a "home invasion", the gun isn't being used to defend the home.

After all, the home is in the "just stuff" catagory, right?

The gun is being used to defend the people in the home. Since there is an indisputable right to self-defense in the home, is there not the same such right outside the home? If not, why not? If so, why do you want to limit the choice of tool that a non-criminal defender may use?

And why do you call the legal, peaceful, non-criminal exercise of a Civil Right "indiscriminate carrying"? Seems quite "discriminate" to me....

[DWC]

30. I seriously do not follow your logic

Without your life, nothing else matters. Your life is with you where ever you are and must be defended where ever you are.

You seem to instill magical powers in a deed, mortgage, or lease agreement for a "home" making it sacrosanct and the only location where your life holds sufficient value to be defended by all means possible.

The world is my home and is sacrosanct. My life and the lives of those in my charge are my most valuable posessions in my home and I will defend them by all means possible.

Semper Fi,

[Starboard Tack]

31. "Without your life, nothing else matters."

Without my integrity, my life is pointless. No magical powers instilled in deeds etc.. I would use all means available to me in any situation. I do not make a gun available to me. That's my choice. I do not consider a gun to be a viable option, except in the most extreme of circumstances. Those circumstances would be limited to my home, where I am fully familiar with my surroundings and fully responsible for my actions. I would never carry a weapon in public unless I felt that my life were in in danger. I find carrying randomly on a "just in case" basis unjustified and not conducive to public safety.
And you know what? It's working just fine for me, all my family, all my friends and just about everyone I know. I have enough things to think about and take care of without worrying about a gun. Handguns are for desperate people in desperate times. If and when I feel desperate I'll think about getting one. Until then, I'll keep enjoying life to the full.

[PavePusher]

43. Who carries "randomly"? Where do you get these odd assumptions from?

Your charmed life and precognition don't apply to everyone, yet you continually assert that they should.

[Starboard Tack]

45. I assert nothing of the sort.

If you feel the need to carry a gun, carry it, by all means. That's your business. When you start cheering when others do it and when you advocate that more people do it, then you are asserting that more guns on the street equals a better society. And that is where we disagree.
Carrying everywhere it is legal is carrying randomly, indiscriminately, thoughtlessly or automatically. Call it what you want.

[X_Digger]

47. I don't think most of those words mean what you seem to think they mean..

randomly - If you carried randomly, then that wouldn't be everywhere that is legal, and some places that aren't.

indiscriminately - If you carried indiscriminately, you wouldn't discriminate between legal and illegal places.

thoughtlessly - If you didn't think about it, how would you know where is legal and where is not.


I know, you're just trying to find an adjective that sticks since you got busted for 'compulsive'. Keep trying.

[Starboard Tack]

48. Let me help you out here.

Randomly = without a conscious choice.
Indiscriminately = thoughtlessly
Thoughtlessly = indiscriminately
Compulsive behavior is behavior which a person does compulsively—in other words, not because they want to behave that way, but because they feel they have to do so.

You decide where you fit. I don't expect anyone here to be breaking the law, but many would like the laws changed so that everywhere becomes legal. But you knew that and your hair splitting is looking more and more compulsive.

[X_Digger]

50. Keep trying.

I love that little bit of circular meaning..

Indiscriminately = thoughtlessly
Thoughtlessly = indiscriminately

Someone who doesn't carry into places where it's illegal has to think, "Am I going to a place today where it is illegal to carry?"

Hence choice. Hence discrimination. Hence thought.

A truly compulsive person wouldn't care about legality.

Try harder.

[Starboard Tack]

51. What about all those who say they want to carry everywhere?

They don't want anywhere to be illegal, even airplanes, bars, classrooms and churches. You name it. Ask them, they're in my thread. I'm sure they'll be happy to tell you.

[X_Digger]

52. The fact that they don't carry in those places blows your premise to shit.

What they want is immaterial to the premise of "will go nowhere without being armed."

[Starboard Tack]

60. Another English lesson for you

will = want

[X_Digger]

62. Is English your first language?

"They don't want anywhere" is not equivalent to "will go nowhere without being armed."

Try harder. Your flailing is kinda funny.

[Starboard Tack]

64. Correct. You're learning, slowly

"will go nowhere without being armed."
is the same as
"want to go nowhere without being armed."

Because they want to be able to go everywhere they please. If you don't understand by now, I can't help you. It is you who is flailing, not me. I'm taking time to explain something that everyone else seems to have no trouble understanding. Meanwhile, you're missing some good constructive conversation.

[X_Digger]

65. No, your semantic perturbation doesn't help your cause..

[div class='excerpt']"will go nowhere without being armed."
is the same as
"want to go nowhere without being armed."

This is why I wonder if English is your first language.

The two statements are not equivalent.

I want to dig up gold bricks in my back yard.

I will dig up gold bricks in my back yard.

Fucking duh.

[Starboard Tack]

68. Oh dear. Is this really necessary?

"semantic perturbation"
How heavy is that dictionary you're carrying? Don't get a hernia.

Try looking up the easy four letter words before you get too semantically perturbed.

will/
Verb:

Expressing the future tense: "you will dig up gold bricks".
Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen: "he was doing what his mind willed".

Noun:
The faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action: "she has an iron will".
Synonyms:
verb. want - wish - desire - choose
noun. testament - volition - wish - desire

In this lifetime English was my first language and I taught it for many years. I think German may have been my first language in a previous incarnation, but I can't be sure.

[X_Digger]

69. You know, you're not fooling anyone.

If I thought you actually thought those two sentences meant the same thing, I'd pity you (well, more than I already do.)

I've demonstrated the absurd length you're willing to go to in order to keep your faith-based ignorance well-ensconced.

[Starboard Tack]

71. I'm done. Next time you want an English lesson, find another tutor.

Don't do anything against your will unless you want to. Bye bye.

[X_Digger]

72. Don't stop now..

Your flailing is providing a much needed comedic break.

[E6-B]

59. Crime does not stay from those places.

[Starboard Tack]

70. Talk to XDigger. You guys'll have a blast together.

[mvccd1000]

73. Those places aren't illegal.

(Depending on circumstance, like so much else in life.)

Charter plane: carry what you want.
Bars: legal in many states.
Classrooms: legal in some states.
Churches: legal in many states.

Not mentioned, but banks, doctor's offices, grocery stores, are also legal in many or most states.

Perhaps you can point to the wave of shootings, accidental discharges, or frightened bystanders in private planes, bars, classrooms, churches, banks, doctor's offices, and grocery stores in places where firearms may be carried?

If not, it may be that the people who are bothered by it are a much smaller minority than you imagine.

[Starboard Tack]

74. Thanks for the confirmation

I'm sure our friend XDigger will find it all very enlightening.

[X_Digger]

75. How so?

What statement of mine does this refute?

Or are you just trying to divert more attention?

[ellisonz]

8. There is no indication to believe that the first situation...

...would have turned out any differently even if there was a gun in the home. Mr. Gage was ambushed. He just thought the dog wanted to get out. I doubt Mrs. Gage could have gotten to a secured gun fast enough to make any difference. This was a brutal and tragic attack; but I don't believe it in anyway makes some sort of argument that a gun makes a major difference in cases like this horrid incident.

Guns aren't just used to defend the home; there are valid reasons for reasonable gun control. I have never denied the right to self-defense both from properly vetted carriers or in the home. While that may be the news in Texas, this is the news in L.A.:

A knock, three gunshots and a mysterious slaying in Winnetka
A senior soccer player at El Camino Real Charter High is killed in his frontyard after a girl knocks on the door of the family's Winnetka home. Police haven't identified a motive or suspects.

By Matt Stevens and Alan Zarembo, Los Angeles Times

January 13, 2012
The killing of a popular 17-year-old high school student began with a knock at his west San Fernando Valley front door. A girl with red hair had come calling.

Francisco Rodriguez Jr. talked to the girl briefly in the doorway Wednesday evening, out of earshot of his mother and his older sister, who said she had never seen the girl before. Turning back into the house for a moment, he told them he was going outside.

Francisco seemed afraid, his sister, Jessica Rodriguez, 23, said Thursday morning, explaining the sequence of events with her hand covering her face, crying.

"He gave me a look, a scared look, like he knew something was going to happen," she said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-student-killed-20120113,0,710569.story

CHP officer testifies in trial: 'I was not trying to kill Marcus'
January 13, 2012 | 1:14 pm
-- Rosanna Xia at Los Angeles County Superior Court

California Highway Patrol officer Tomiekia Johnson, charged with murdering her husband more than two years ago, tearfully testified Friday that she and Marcus Lemons were struggling over her gun when it accidentally went off.

“I was not trying to kill Marcus. I would never try to hurt him,” she said in court, weeping. “He always hit me.”

---------

Prosecutors have argued in court that this was far from an accident. In the first three days of trial, witness testimonies portrayed Johnson as a wife with an aggressive personality and a tendency to drink excessively.

---------
Forensic evidence and testimonies from crime-scene experts show that Johnson fired an intentional contact shot, prosecutors said. Lemons’ family members, sitting in one corner of the courtroom, looked on stoically.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/01/chp-officer-testifies-in-her-murder-trial-i-was-not-trying-to-kill-marcus.html

Here are two incidents, two people dead, guns needlessly involved.

[ileus]

12. Rule #33 never open the door at night without looking first.

When you're 80 don't open the door at all...

[oneshooter]

19. Please expand on this statement...........

"I doubt Mrs. Gage could have gotten to a secured gun fast enough"

Why would there have to be a SECURED firearm in the house with no small children present?
Is this a part of your arms agenda? All arms need to be secured at all times?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[ellisonz]

23. Do you leave your guns laying about?

She's old

[GreenStormCloud]

28. Yes, we leave out guns out.

My wife and I are both senior citizens, no children in the house. She has a pistol on her nightstand and I have one on mine. Both are loaded, chambered, and ready to fire.

[oneshooter]

29. " She's old " A little age discrimination going on?

I generally have a firearm close at hand when home, and on me when I am not.

[ellisonz]

32. Please link to a fast reacting superwoman 80 year old...

[X_Digger]

33. You want stories of senior citizens defending themselves with guns?

Feel free to check the archives @ DU2.. (62-91 years old are represented here..)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=339567

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=337901

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=464874

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=464875

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=308201

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=453091

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=259452

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=264206

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=319719

[ellisonz]

37. Now link me to stories involving multiple suspects staging an ambush...

Also, the archives at DU2 are working again .

[X_Digger]

40. Actually, I already did..

A couple of those stories were multiple home invaders targeting the elderly.

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. About that "She's old"...

http://www.news-journalonline.com/news/local/east-volusia/2012/01/13/daytona-man-82-shoots-burglar-dead.html

Daytona man, 82, shoots burglar dead
By MARK I. JOHNSON, Staff writer
January 13, 2012 1:00 AM

DAYTONA BEACH -- An 82-year-old Daytona Beach man who shot and killed an intruder Thursday morning has no regrets.

"I did what I had to do," Charles A. Robbins said of the 6 a.m. shooting. "It was something that needed to be done."...

...Police identified the dead man as Tyler Orshoski, 24, of Holly Hill.

...Court records show Orshoski had been arrested at least a dozen times for a variety of crimes including loitering and prowling, burglary, violation of probation, petty theft, retail theft and criminal traffic violations...

....Chitwood said the intruder was wearing a stocking ski mask and gloves, and had a hammer, screwdriver and flashlight. The side door showed evidence of being pried...

Empirical evidence has a way of harshing the mellow, doesn't it?

[ellisonz]

56. That's not really empirically sound approach to the question...

I could link to just as many instances where there may have been a gun in the home but the elderly resident was unable to get to a gun in time. A few well publicized examples is NOT an empirical analysis.

I can't find a good study on this so as far as we can empirically know we're both wrong. Can you present a scientific study on the question?

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. Perhaps it isn't, but it shows that gun use is an option that has worked.

No one is claiming that having a gun is a guarantee of safety, but my example (among others) shows that it remains a viable option
for those that aren't able to engage in a MMA match with intruders.

[ellisonz]

58. My mellow remains un-harshed. n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

63. That's a *good* thing...

[Atypical Liberal]

13. They should have used some Judo on them.

[ileus]

18. Hard to do an O-goshi with a broken hip.