Insecure males, not guns, are to blame

[duhneece]

My partner's letter to the editor, recently published:

"True, the National Rifle Association is not the creator of our Second Amendment, but it is, along with the inadequate availability of mental treatment, an impediment to any meaningful legislation that could help keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable.

The NRA stance that the Union will collapse unless even the mentally unstable have the right to own and carry any kind of firearm anywhere they want is unsustainable.

In spite of the strains on the arms industry, a child's right to live trumps your right to own a gun without a background check.

I am not blaming guns, I am blaming insecure males that need assault rifles to bolster their manhood and let themselves be manipulated by the NRA.

The meaning of "well regulated" is the same now as it was in the 18th century: Controlled or supervised by means of rules and regulations."
http://www.alamogordonews.com/opinion/ci_22277491/insecure-males-not-guns-are-blame
You can respond via facebook, if you want. He was responding to several pro-gun ltte's and I am so proud of his letter.

[orpupilofnature57]

1. +1000 !!!!

[McDiggy]

2. I can see how a culture of fear can be partly to blame in contributing to the availability of guns..

...of course, the problem here with blaming this on men is that the "insecure" person in this case happened to be a female that decided to amass a huge collection of firearms that was easily accessible by her mentally ill child. I'd reconsider the gender-blame overtones because it seems pretty silly considering what actually happened in this case.

[duhneece]

5. Interesting slant

One we hadn't thought of.

[gejohnston]

3. Holloman was my first base

met my wife there.

May I make some corrections?

"True, the National Rifle Association is not the creator of our Second Amendment, but it is, along with the inadequate availability of mental treatment, an impediment to any meaningful legislation that could help keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable.

I don't know about that. What is mentally unstable and how does one test for and filter it out. It seems that "meaningful legislation" means it is OK for BMW drivers to take their Bennellis to the skeet range, but Ford drivers with Mossburgs are inbred rednecks not to be trusted. Since the last two in the US, or the Port Author shooter in Australia, did not legally obtain their guns. Holmes had bombs as well.

The NRA stance that the Union will collapse unless even the mentally unstable have the right to own and carry any kind of firearm anywhere they want is unsustainable.

hyperbole, and not true.

In spite of the strains on the arms industry, a child's right to live trumps your right to own a gun without a background check.

They supported the current background check system.

I am not blaming guns, I am blaming insecure males that need assault rifles to bolster their manhood and let themselves be manipulated by the NRA.

Cliched, trite, and time worn. Also, assault rifle as a specific definition. You can't buy one at Wal Mart or most gun stores.

The meaning of "well regulated" is the same now as it was in the 18th century: Controlled or supervised by means of rules and regulations."

That's debatable. I have seen the term often used as "well functioning" in other contexts.

[Bonhomme Richard]

6. Do you consider the current state of things well functioning? I don't. N/t

[duhneece]

10. I don't either.

I think it will take a wide variety of changes to decrease the odds of another tragic Columbine, Adam Lanza, Virginia Tech, etc.

Just as we decreased deaths per driven mile by improving roads (the angles at curves, the slope for water run-off, etc), steering, brakes, licensing testing, DWI laws, education, seatbelts, etc, I believe it will take a variety of laws to reduce the deaths of innocents by firearms including closing the loopholes for gun sales at gun shows, automatic weapons, increased mental health services and research, public education, to name a few changes. I think it's time we put our heads together and discuss possible changes.

[gejohnston]

12. what loopholes are there for automatic weapons?

when was the last crime committed with a legal automatic weapon? IIRC, it was a cop murdering an informant with a MAC 10 registered to the police department that employed him.
BTW, most gun show sellers are FFLs, and they have to follow the same federal and local laws as their store.
Gun shows had nothing to do with any of those shootings.

[duhneece]

16. Gun shows contibute to the murders in Mexico

I live 100 miles north of Juarez Mexico and am aware of the many guns sold to folks that don't have to have background checks because they are sold at gun shows here in my community by non FFL's...'somehow' they end up in Mexico, contributing to death there.

I, and many (a majority) of people I talk to are opposed to automatic weapons and I am hoping we continue to speak up, speak out loud.

[gejohnston]

21. I doubt many of them land up in Mexico

cartels are using automatic weapons from Central America and other places. Certainly not from a gun show given the regulations covering them.
I didn't know automatic weapons were such a hot issue. I am opposed to cops having them, but collectors with their antiques I have no problem with.
You do know what an automatic weapon is right?

[Jenoch]

55. Why are you opposed to cops

having automatic weapons? My brother is a cop and has an H&K MP5/40 in his squad. He has never even unlocked it to use in a tactical situation and gas only shot it on the range.

[gejohnston]

59. militarization of cops

esp SWAT teams and their over use.

[Jenoch]

62. Could you provide links

to examples of the 'militarization' of cops that you believe is happening?

[gejohnston]

63. been a bit of an occational rant from

progressive talk radio folks, esp on Pacifica. Don't see it in my neck of the woods, but here is an article. Every now and then Thom Hartmann would rant about local PDs getting free APCs and etc.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/11/how-the-war-on-terror-has-militarized-the-police/248047/#

[Jenoch]

64. Is the 'militarization' of cops a concern

of yours? You seem to be backing off. I have not noticed the kind of SWAT activity in my area which is described in the link you provided. The interesting thing aboyt that link is that the Pima County Sheriff, Clarence Dupnik, is a liberal who wushes much tougher gun control laws in Arizona.

[gejohnston]

65. not overly, since our cops are more like Andy and Barney

When I'm in my hometown in Wyoming, more like Andy. Citrus County Florida more like Barney. It seems to me that if the cop needs range, a carbine would be better. Otherwise, I think a shotgun does a better job than a SMG.

[Jenoch]

66. My brother also has a shotgun in the trunk od rhe squad.

Here is an aside about cops and CCW permit holders. I wish I could find the link, but I read somewbere that it is statistically more likely for a LEO to be convicted of a crime than a conceal carry permit holder. I'm not sure what to make of that.

[gejohnston]

67. more temptaion

drug bust, big stack of cash. Bust a dealer or pimp with a big roll. Just a guess. Of course there is bribery. Have to see a break down of crimes.

[gejohnston]

14. not really, but compared to what?

I don't think any place is really well functioning. If you take just the OCED countries
we are third in murder, Mexico is first.
Australia is first in rape
Belgium is first if robberies
UK is first in violent assaults
South Korea is first in suicide

[clffrdjk]

4. Why are you proud?

Last edited Tue Jan 1, 2013, 01:11 PM - Edit history (1)

"True, the National Rifle Association is not the creator of our Second Amendment, but it is, along with the inadequate availability of mental treatment, an impediment to any meaningful legislation that could help keep guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable.

So do something useful and open the background check system to everyone.

The NRA stance that the Union will collapse unless even the mentally unstable have the right to own and carry any kind of firearm anywhere they want is unsustainable.

Show me where that has ever been a stance of NRA.

In spite of the strains on the arms industry, a child's right to live trumps your right to own a gun without a background check.

Back to number one

I am not blaming guns, I am blaming insecure males that need assault rifles to bolster their manhood and let themselves be manipulated by the NRA.

I don't have the time or inclination to debate liars or children, it is time to grow up.

The meaning of "well regulated" is the same now as it was in the 18th century: Controlled or supervised by means of rules and regulations."

Ok show me some new rules that DON'T INFRINGE on my rights.

[duhneece]

8. I'm proud because Ken is responding to ltte's

Every point Ken made is in response to recent local letters to the editor that argued against any additional regulations.

He is also very involved in local behavioral health organizations where we see programs for behavioral health being cut and is responding from that knowledge.

I think C Heston's comment to 'pry my cold, dead hands' illustrates the NRA's stance on the mentally unstable to have the right to own & carry any kind of firearm better than any mere statement could.

We are surrounded by neighbors who reveal their insecurity in many ways, the gun issue being the most pertinent one right now.

My late husband was a gunsmith and frequently discussed how he had to deal with gun nuts as well as gun enthusiasts and Ken spots the nuts every time.

[gejohnston]

11. what is the difference between gun enthusiasts and gun nuts?

I don't think Heston's comment about mental stability as it was defiance. During the past three weeks there have been rants blaming all gun owners for Newtown. I don't buy any variation of the "penis" argument. It has more to do with people not liking being blamed for the social problems in Chicago or DC. As criminologist Jame Wright observed 20 years ago, that is the perception.

[duhneece]

17. We see Heston's remark differently

You see it as defiance, I see it as inappropriate and so lacking in compassion as to be sick.

Again, you don't buy the 'penis' argument; I do.

I do agree with you that social problems and our response (or lack of response) to them contribute to gun deaths.

I think gun deaths are so complex that to decrease them will require changes on many fronts.

[gejohnston]

22. I found the penis argument

childish and shows a lack of any cogent or thought out argument. Shallow at best, bigoted at worst.

So, you don't care about murders and suicides by other means? That reinforces my opinion that gun control is less about public safety and more about culture war.

[duhneece]

25. My comments that increased mental health services

I believe that my comments about our need for more mental health services and research was an 'umbrella' consideration for reducing suicides, assaults, rapes, teen pregnancy, abuse, and all murders. But you might not have seen that/those comments.

The posturing of men who don't understand the strength of compassion, who consider kindness & forgiveness to be a weakness has impacted my life in so many ways that I forget that some women also have the same lacks. The greater power that men have on our society and the greater number of men who commit murders, rape and declare unnecessary wars sometimes blinds me to women's same crimes. I didn't use the penis argument, my 72 yr old male partner did, but I 'got' it at such a gut level that I didn't recognize its shallowness or bigotry. Will have to think about that.

When you said I don't care about murders & suicides by other means, I thought "that's one hell of an assumption." My late husband committed suicide in 1998 and I'm very involved in our behavioral health local collaborative.

[gejohnston]

26. not speaking to you specifically

but generally the case. I don't think I have seen many of you posts. I usually read news OPs and the stuff I subscribe to. I rarely read comment posts for the most part.

Unnecessary wars are more about money, not machismo.

I don't think I said you personally didn't. Just when I see "the rate of gun suicides dropped" but ignore the fact that the suicide rate did not drop brings the cynic out in me. True Switzerland and the US have high gun suicides out of the OCED countries, but South Korea has three times the suicide rate.

To change the subject, there used to be a nice restaurant at 10th and White Sands called the Cattleman's, I'm told they knocked it down for some box store. For real?

[SharonAnn]

60. Why is it always young males who do the shootings? That's a legitimate question.

Is it cultural? Biological? Societal? Are young men more mentally unstable than young women? Do they choose different methods to express their instability?

Riddle me that.

[gejohnston]

61. I read someplace that women just do themselves in

without trying to get their 15 minutes. Basically, it is a "hey look at me"
I noticed they don't fit the "mall ninja gun nut" stereotype either.

[SharonAnn]

101. I wondered about that. Also, I noticed that in some cases it seemed to be related

a woman in their life doing something or taking a stand that triggered the event.

In the case of Newtown, it seems that perhaps the mother was planning to take legal guardianship of him so that he should commit him for treatment. Would he have had the same reaction if it had been his father who was doing this?

When I first heard about the shooting, I told a friend "I bet some woman did something and he got angry about it and decided to "show her something"". Not that it's her fault if it happens, it's would be the man's reaction to this and they way he deals with his anger

These are just thoughts and questions. I don't have any answers, but I don't think we're asking all the types of questions that need to be asked.

Thanks for the perceptive response. Definitely food for thought.

[gejohnston]

102. I read that he found out that he was about to be

committed. I do fault her for not securing her guns better.

[duhneece]

68. I agree, yours is a legitimate question

I have the same question & want more research, more treatment, more options.

[ileus]

7. So the NRA wants the mentally unstable to have firearms?

Is that the truth?



One must assume your partner is approving of ole Wayne's idea to register people who are mentally ill? Correct?


I love my Son and Daughter and I protect them with the best safety devices available, that includes my non select fire AR with 30rnd pmags.

Safety first, victim last....

Stay safe my friends.

[duhneece]

9. Many folks choose to feel safe over actually actually being safe

Reminds me of the days when I chose not to wear seatbelts because I felt safer without them...until I learned more.

Folks who keep firearms in their homes increase the odds that they or their family will die by gunfire, either homicide or suicide.

That's the fact. They may feel safer, but they've actually increased the odds of an Adam Lanza ending, much like Lanza's mother.

[gejohnston]

13. but that chance is extremely slim

almost once in a lifetime, Dr. Kellermann's debunked non peer reviewed nonsense aside.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

18. IMHO...

...Adam Lanza was a troubled individual the presence of whom should, in my best estimation, have excluded keeping firearms unsecured in general and specifically unsecured from him. Regardless of personal feelings and anyone's relationships the remote chances of such events make it unwise for all but the most inflexible safety and security minded individuals to keep firearms. It is always a great temptation to unduly trust and/or enable a loved one.

Having said that, without the risk factors of drug use, mental health issues or criminal involvement, nothing about keeping a properly secured firearm will increase your personal chances of dying by homicide or suicide. If you have in mind a specific scenario, statistic or study, please do share it.

Welcome and Happy New Year

[duhneece]

20. From the Brady campaign

PROBLEM: Keeping a gun in the home increases the risk of injury and death. Gun owners may overestimate the benefits of keeping a gun in the home and underestimate the risks.


DID YOU KNOW? Where there are more guns, there are more gun deaths.

Gun death rates are 7 times higher in the states with the highest compared with the lowest household gun ownership. (Harvard School of Public Health, Harvard Injury Control Research Center, 2009).

An estimated 41% of gun-related homicides and 94% of gun-related suicides would not occur under the same circumstances had no guns been present (Wiebe, p. 780).

Household gun ownership levels vary greatly by state, from 60 percent in Wyoming to 9 percent in Hawaii (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2001).

DID YOU KNOW? Keeping a gun in the home raises the risk of homicide.

States with the highest levels of gun ownership have 114 percent higher firearm homicide rates and 60 percent higher homicide rates than states with the lowest gun ownership (Miller, Hemenway, and Azrael, 2007, pp. 659, 660).

The risk of homicide is three times higher in homes with firearms (Kellermann, 1993, p. 1084).

Higher gun ownership puts both men and women at a higher risk for homicide, particularly gun homicide (Harvard School of Public Health, Harvard Injury Control Research Center, 2009).

DID YOU KNOW? Keeping a gun in the home raises the risk of suicide.

Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of suicide by a factor of 3 to 5 and increases the risk of suicide with a firearm by a factor of 17 (Kellermann, p. 467, p. Wiebe, p. 771).

The association between firearm ownership and increased risk of suicide cannot be explained by a higher risk of psychiatric disorders in homes with guns (Miller, p. 183).

DID YOU KNOW? A gun in the home is more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide, or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

Every time a gun injures or kills in self-defense, it is used:

11 times for completed and attempted suicides (Kellermann, 1998, p. 263).
7 times in criminal assaults and homicides, and
4 times in unintentional shooting deaths or injuries.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/gunviolence/gunsinthehome
We obviously need more awareness, more education.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

23. Dr. Arthur Kellerman, stated:

"If you’ve got to resist, you’re chances of being hurt are less the more lethal your weapon. If that were my wife, would I want her to have a .38 Special in her hand? Yeah." (Health Magazine, March/April 1994)

The fundamental failing of the studies you mention is restricting the study to those who've been shot.

Dr. Kellerman is, in the above quote, agreeing with statements from the FBI about crime victims.

[gejohnston]

24. did you know that

all of those studies were funded by the same foundation that astro turfs the Brady Campaign? Kellerman's studies are not peer reviewed and has been debunked? The Harvard School of Public Health, Harvard Injury Control Research Center exists mostly from grants from said foundation?

In other words, the Brady Campaign is hardly the conveyor of truth anymore than the NRA is.

[kenichol]

32. No, please share links

I find nothing that refutes the facts in their studies.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

78. In response:

Every time a gun injures or kills in self-defense, it is used:

11 times for completed and attempted suicides (Kellermann, 1998, p. 263).
7 times in criminal assaults and homicides, and
4 times in unintentional shooting deaths or injuries.

On the Brady page these statistics link to: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182
Which reports in part:

METHODS:
We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas.

RESULTS:
During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

Excluded from any representation in the data used here are any defensive uses of a firearm where a death or injury did not occur. The excluded scenarios are:
1) The imminent use of deadly cause the assailant to discontinue the attack and retreat.
2) The victim fires but doesn't injure or kill anyone and the assailant discontinued the attack and retreated.

I strongly suspect that MOST folks view the idea of shooting someone as an extreme measure. The gun owners I know would not shoot someone who was retreating. The data and conclusions shown are technically correct but fail to represent the complete picture.

[GreenStormCloud]

87. None of those studies separate the criminals from the law-abiding.

Criminology is a well established field. It is well known in that field that it is extremely rare for a person to commit murder as a first vioent offense. Law-abiding people, with clean police records, almost never explode in violent temper rages. But people with criminal histories do exactly that. What those studies find is what everybody with common sense already knows, that it is dangerous to be a violent criminal or to live with one. It is illegal for them to have guns, but being criminals they will have them anyway.

It is a dishonest use of statistics to attempt to predict what will happen with a law-abiding person based on what violent criminals do.

[duhneece]

93. I don't see those studies as only including violent criminals

I see them as indicating that more guns equal more gun deaths, by suicide or homicide.

More guns in the home equals more deaths by guns of family and loved ones. That's what I see from looking as them.

[Ashgrey77]

79. That's just straight bullshit.

I've been around guns my entire life and have NEVER been shot or threatened by any of the firearms that are stored safely in my own home. What you just said is a opinion, not a fact, and a poorly researched opinion at that.

[bowens43]

15. No, guns are the problem.

guns are definitely the problem.

[duhneece]

19. Guns are one huge part of the problem

Unjust drug laws, the lack of mental health facilities are a piece of the problem, too.

[iiibbb]

27. I should make bingo cards

for all of the logical fallacies flung around this debate.

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/rhetological-fallacies/

Gun owners are insecure.... gun grabbers are insecure about functional adults having access to guns.

Ken wrote as dumb a letter as any position voiced by the NRA. Congratulations.

[kenichol]

28. Author reply

As the author of the letter to the editor, posted by my partner, duhneece, I should clarify my intent. I do not blame guns, nor do I refer to people who really need protection, the hunters, or the target shooters (of which I am one).

I do blame just about everything else surrounding the gun culture, including the glorification of gun violence by TV, film, and games which has an influence on the weak minded, the ignored, the outcast, the easily influenced, the insecure, the frustrated, the bullied and the mentally confused. The American culture of the rugged individual, the emphasis on competition instead of cooperation, our worship of 'cowboy culture', our militaristic 'might makes right' mentality and community, all play a role in violence. The gun is used as a tool to act out cultural fantasies by the less grounded citizen.

The NRA, is just the pr stooge for the arms industry and thus part of the problem .

[iiibbb]

29. So, this seems like a more grounded argument. What made you think a penis crack was appropriate?

If this issue is about coming together in order to reach a solution to these issues... what drives people to make it personal? Do you think it accomplishes anything. All I think it does is contribute to the polarization of the issue.

You're no better than a tea-partier IMHO.

[duhneece]

36. Not sure why you equate penis with insecure males, which is what the author said

I don't understand your substitution.

[gejohnston]

30. as a fellow westerner

please explain "cowboy culture" and how it is a bad thing? If you look at the history, cowboys and such were very cooperative. Japan is a very competitive society. It is also a collectivist society where the individual is less important.
http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/cowboyculture.htm

Are you saying that the UK's militaristic tradition and "empire" makes them lead the OCED countries in assaults? Outside of a few urban centers, we are as safe as Europe. Using your "cowboy culture" and "individualism is bad" example, how does that explain Chicago, DC, NOLA? Or El Paso for that matter? Gangs are not individualistic. They are part of a community, and that community comes before the individual. As much as biker gangs like to pretend otherwise, they are very conformist and collectivist. I'm not saying collectivism leads to violent crimes either, just saying that it all sounds like pop anthropology to me.

[kenichol]

33. 'Cowboy culture' meant might made right

The cowboy culture, like the Lincoln County Wars, meant that the rancher with most guns 'won' water or grazing rights.
When women who weren't sex workers moved out West, they demanded schools, churches and a sheriff who didn't just work for the most wealthy and powerful, ending the cowboy culture.
Of course, there were good things, too, but the myth of cowboys shoot-em-up glory still exists in my neck of the woods.

[gejohnston]

35. those were rare

while range wars existed, they were rare. The Lincoln County war was about maintaining a dry good monopoly, not grazing and water rights. It was trust busting by other means.

None of the "regulators" were cowboys. They were contract killers and criminals, not that much different than their New York, Chicago, Boston counterparts of that era, without the benefit of Ned Buntline's PR, or the modern criminal gangs that inhabit urban areas. BTW, urban gangs existed then too.
I grew up in Wyoming. I lived in New Mexico. In fact, I met my wife in Alamogordo. I try to be a good student of history. I think I have a pretty good grasp what cowboy culture is and what isn't.

[duhneece]

37. We experience cowboy culture differently

I maintain that the cowboy myth I see & am most familiar with is 'might makes right' and 'if you're powerful enough, you are above the law'. You see it differently, but you didn't share how you do see it or else I missed it. The healthy, positive cowboy experience I admire is working outside on horses, working together for a shared goal, but I am surrounded by the less healthy myth.

Sorry that earlier I forgot to answer about the restaurant you mentioned or how cool it is that you are familiar with Alamogordo/Holloman AFB. Yes, the restaurant closed -I was not impressed with it because 100% of its appetizer menu was fried, but I have a close friend who just loved their chicken fried steak.

Ken lives south of town, right up next to the mountain; I live north of town, in the canyons. I feel very fortunate to live where I want to live; NM IS the land of enchantment for me & I hope you got to enjoy the beauty of this unique area, with mountains & White Sands so close.

[gejohnston]

39. The cowboy culture I'm familiar with

in Wyoming are the positive healthy ones. Those were actual values, not the myth. But then, I didn't have a couple of bases next to me. I suspect that could be part of it. Less cowboy and more military retiree. I get that in Tampa as well. Of course, there are some military retirees like me and some of the folks in the Veterans in the DU veteran group who are not so much.
How did the Alex Jones fans take the news about the Luftwaffe unit moving in?

[jeepnstein]

40. Give it up.

The poster is obviously hanging their emotional baggage on to a public policy problem. They want to make decisions based on their feelings, and if we don't validate their feelings by tossing aside our rights, then we are heartless monsters. You just can't really have a rational discussion with someone like that.

[Eleanors38]

49. Too much Shane and Rio Bravo. Where do they get this stuff?

[duhneece]

50. That's the 'myth' part of the cowboy culture nt

[jeepnstein]

57. Public policy through old movies?

That's a novel approach.

[Eleanors38]

73. William H. Forbis in The Cowboys (Time-Life, 1973) dealt with the myths...

and described how cowboys "...constructed incidents of phony violence for the benefit of gullible visitors..."

"One favorite gambit in railroad towns was the fake shoot-out...while the passengers gawked, the cowboys would fire off a volley of shots, then pick up the limp form if a volunteer "corpse" and carry him out the door and around a corner."

Another trick was to hoist a lynched dummy into the air and then shoot the "body" repeatedly.
Thus the rise of pulp fiction, thus the rise of Cody's "Wild West" shows.

Forbis contends "most...gunfights occurred not between cowboys but in the Western underworld, among the gamblers, toughs and professional criminals who walk the corridors of ANY SOCIETY." (emphasis mine)

[Jenoch]

58. Should we assume it was a simple oversight on your part

in that you did not include any links to reputable sources to back up the information you provided in your letter to the editor?

[duhneece]

70. No one has provided debunking of the sources I provided in #20

Brady Campaign provides many resources. I listed several in my previous link. Should I assume you missed that...I prefer not to assume anything.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/

[Jenoch]

77. You deflected from the question.

It's ok if you cannot answer it however. I was referring to information supporting the claims made in the OP. your post#20 did not address those issues.

[Bay Boy]

31. Any hope your partner has of being taken seriously ended when...

...he included this blatant lie: "The NRA stance that the Union will collapse unless even the mentally unstable have the right to own and carry any kind of firearm anywhere they want is unsustainable". Show me where the NRA has ever said that.

It also seems to me that the 'rule' of debates that the first person to use the word Nazi in a debate automatically loses should also include the first person who uses the word penis loses too.

[duhneece]

34. He called it as he sees it

And as many others see it as well.

[Lizzie Poppet]

38. Then he sees it WRONG.

I detest having to defend the NRA, but their actual stated policies bear no resemblance whatsoever to what your partner claimed.

[Bay Boy]

45. So facts be damned...

...whatever he 'feels' is reality.

[Ashgrey77]

80. Welcome to the modern world. Where "feelings and opinions" dictate reality instead of facts. :)

[DonP]

46. How "many others" pro control letters ran in the paper?

You said it was in response to 4 or 5 pro 2nd amendment letters.

If so "many others" see it your way, where were all their letters?

It's funny how gun control supporters always tell us how "everyone thinks like they do" but they never seem to show up at the polls or get around to actually doing anything in the real world to support gun control.

No Brady memberships, no petitions to repeal concealed carry, nothing but online talk it seems.

[billh58]

106. As far as I can tell, you

are the first person to use the word "penis" in this discussion.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

41. you two are blessed to have each other.

[duhneece]

42. I feel very blessed

We have a small nonprofit, Peace and Justice of La Luz http://pajoll.org and provide books to our jails & half-way houses, provide felons' voting rights info, have a booth with resources about the failed war on drugs. That he dances so well that I've danced more in the past few years than I have in my life, that he loves garlic and weird food combos (is willing to help fix and eat ANYTHING I suggest) are individual blessings beyond any I had imagined.

[Jenoch]

56. Do you do anything to help the VICTIMS

of the crimes committed by the felons you say you are assisting?

[duhneece]

69. The felons I know hurt themselves with their drug use

Many of them were raped, assaulted, traumatized by our legal system. Do you think felons deserve no help with voting rights or access to books?
Why, what do you do to help?

[blue burro]

43. Your partner can take some credit for convincing me to join the NRA for the 1st time in 60 years

of owning guns. I think I will buy memberships for some other family members as well.

[duhneece]

44. I don't buy it.

Sounds more like he hit a nerve.

[blue burro]

47. Well, you're actually correct about that. My nerve is 'hit' whenever someone decides I must

give up a Constitutional right because of the malefactions of a infinitesimally small number of crazies
who have abused that right. I don't have much sympathy for pearl-clutching whiners who would gladly give up their rights for a little bit of imagined safety...they deserve neither.

[duhneece]

51. Your response is better than any focus group I could have imagined

Thank you. Your comments reveal how successful Ken's letter was while you attack his letter without discussing or dialoguing in any way.

[blue burro]

82. Thank you. I notice you didn't manage to find any flaw in my logic.

But you're not unique in that way.

[billh58]

103. And I was just going to ask

WHAT logic, but your pizza came before I could type it...

[Eleanors38]

48. The "insecure male" is highly prejudiced, if not bigoted...

esp. since women constitute the fastest-growing demographic of gun-owners (did I mention old?). Some studies show that blacks who commit murder do so at a rate several times that of the general population. Do you think that these males are several times more insecure than the general pop.? If so, why is this? Do you have any insight as to how this intense insecurity can be dealt with?

[duhneece]

53. Insecurity includes social injustice, economic slavery

Slavery while being incarcerated, marginalized when released from prison if convicted of self-medicating with drugs. Since minorities and the poor are imprisoned at a higher rate than whites for the same crimes, I believe they are more insecure so any changes for the better would have to include a wide variety of options for education, job training, housing, substance abuse treatment, mental health treatment, just to name a few.

[Eleanors38]

71. What kind of programs would suit the general population of males?

[duhneece]

72. In the post you responded to (I think, if I read the 'reply to' correctly)

I said, "...any changes for the better would have to include a wide variety of options for education, job training, housing, substance abuse treatment, mental health treatment, just to name a few. "
I would add that we need more research, in general, on behavioral health problems & solutions.

[blue burro]

81. Well, duh. If behavioral problems could be fixed there would be no need to worry about guns

or a million other adjuncts to sociopathy. Did you think of that all by yourself?

[GreenStormCloud]

83. "Self medicating with drugs"? LOL!

While I completely support ending the so-called war on drugs and legalizing all of them, I refuse to call the use of them, "self medicating".

[duhneece]

91. Do you work with addicts?

Do you work with inmates?

[GreenStormCloud]

94. How did they become addicts.

They VOLUNTARILY took a mind altering drug because they wanted to get high. They were not treating an illness.

[duhneece]

95. I guess that means 'no', you don't work with addicts

Many addicts are treating their post-traumatic stress following rape, incest, assault, abuse (physical, mental, emotional, spiritual) because drugs work to relieve their pain, for awhile.
Veterans back from Iraq & Afghanistan are the newest 'group' of addicts and homeless we're dealing with here.

[bluerum]

52. Brilliant discovery. Now to enact a federal insecure male ban.

Maybe a new constitutional amendment to strip them of all rights. Dangerous bastards.

[duhneece]

54. Bans, like alcohol prohibition do not work

But what does work is a raising of awareness.

[LAGC]

74. It is odd how all these shooting incidents involve young, disturbed males...

Perhaps we need more sensitivity training for boys in elementary school.

I don't believe testosterone is the culprit here, but rather how society molds its image of what it means to be a man.

Ideally, I'd like to see more women take up the shooting sports and more men pursue other hobbies.

[duhneece]

75. Again, I'd like to see more research

More options for all of us. More treatment for unhealthy patterns or habits of any kind...I agree with you that how society molds its image of what it means to be a man is HUGE in this discussion. So then, how do we organize to include more folks at the table in this discussion?

[Locrian]

76. finally

Finally things are getting around to actually discussion of root cause: fear / insecurity / etc.

And it's not just guns. Our whole "market" is based on fear and fear based buying of things. Not to mention insecurity of social safety nets, community etc.

It goes deep - the culture we get is what we make for ourselves. Whether it's glorification of guns on tv, movies, games etc or manufactures or the NRA it creates the climate. I think it's less the violence in the movies/tv than it is the fantasy of people (men AND women) who want to pretend they're the hero. And the hero nowadays ALWAYS has the 'coolest' guns.

I still think it's rare (well, rare considering...) that people actually cross the line and commit such extreme actions. But cooking everything in this culture will get the outliers. And that's not counting the 'accidents' or the 'careless' shootings, etc

We're becoming like fearful big dogs. And a fearful dog is worse and more likely to bit than a confident one. That's one of the reasons I tend to discount the 'testosterone thing' (unless it's steriods etc).

[loknar]

84. your partner's argument seems racist, misandric, and extremely insulting imo.

I had a post shot down for suggesting that there were jobs to be found. I can't believe this insulting tripe stands.

[billh58]

104. And another one

bites the dust...

[GreenStormCloud]

85. We are decended from killer apes. It's in our DNA. N/T

Male violence is part of all cultures and all times. It isn't unique to modern America.

[gejohnston]

86. Dr. Dart I presume?

Been years since I read that book.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1253902.African_Genesis?auto_login_attempted=true

[GreenStormCloud]

88. No, a different book.

Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence

Dale Peterson (Author), Richard Wrangham (Author)

Published in 1999

[duhneece]

92. But it is most pronounced in the US

Among developed nations. I include Mexico as America.

[gejohnston]

96. Mexico is an OCED country

as Estonia, both top us in murders
Out of just the OCED countries
UK has the most assaults
Australia has the most rapes
Belgium has the most robberies

[duhneece]

97. Do you recognize Mexico as being part of America? nt

[gejohnston]

98. So is Canada

Which I'm sure Mexicans and Canadians appreciate it (not) when Europeans and US conservatives call the US "America".

[duhneece]

99. Exactly

I find it amazing that so I know speak of Americans as though the term excludes Mexicans, since we live 100 miles north of the Mexican border.

[gejohnston]

100. What amazed me was

the number of Anglo civilians that would bitch about "welfare queens", but freeloaded off the Mexican taxpayer. IIRC, Mexico has a single payer system with a small co pay. US civilians would go across the river because the care was more affordable, but didn't stop to ponder why it was affordable.

[hack89]

89. I'll have to let my wife and daughter know that

once they get back from breaking in my daughter's new AR-15

[holdencaufield]

90. My daughter shoots -- often and well...

... and I assure you, she is neither insecure nor male.

[duhneece]

105. Sad that folks are proud when they or family destroys

I value creativity and am proud when my family creates, serves, improves their professional skills...so I'm proud when my daughter, who is in law enforcement, improves her shooting because it helps her professionally and could save lives.

But it is sad when folks are proud when destruction (of paper targets, cans, clay pigeons) is the whole point of their time spent. Just seems creepily sad.