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1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
Wed Jul 11, 2012, 12:44 PM Jul 2012

I had an interesting discussion the other day ...

I met up with some friends for drinks. The group was racially diverse (white, Black, Hispanic though primarily Black); highly educated (most have terminal degrees in their field and no one had less than a Masters Degree); economically well off, as most were middle-level managers or worked in high paying fields; all are politically aware, if not, active, and all are decidedly liberal.

After catching up on our families and brainstorming on "how to better negotiate on the job politics", the discussion turned to political politics ... specifically, President Obama's presidency and whether his "accomplishments" are all that we could expect.

Everyone expressed a certain disappointment that his administration had not addressed this issue or that issue, soon enough or forcefully enough; but everyone, as in the whole, was pretty happy with his presidency, considering the current political/partisan environment.

Then, the discussion turned to "whether President Obama is moving us (the U.S.) towards what is 'possible'; or merely, doing what is 'doable'?"

The group was divided on this with some arguing that President Obama has put his efforts towards doing what is doable and surrendering what is possible, without a fight; while others argued that accomplishing what is possible is only accomplished by doing what is doable ... when it is doable.

This topic had been discussed for awhile, when I recognized a pattern ... the positional cohorts broke down (roughly) by age; with those under 50 seeing President Obama goal as doing what is doable, and those over 50 saw President Obama as setting up a foundation for future gains.

When I offered my observation to the group, the conversation took a turn to answering "what caused the apparent generational divide?" Was it the "idealism of youth" and the "urgency of now" versus the "conservatism that comes with age, or what? (This is where the discussion got really interesting for me.)

Then, it was suggested that the divide can be explained (across racial, gender, educational and economic lines) by the members' exposure to "sustained movements." Those that were born or came of age in the '60s, tended to see the political objective to be "the building of firm foundations"; and this could be a result of having seen/experienced the slow advances of the Civil Rights, Chicanos, feminist movements. Whereas, those born or came of age afterwards, tended to see the political objective to be the accomplishing of specific ends.

For example, the older cohort saw the ACA as a success, in that it moved the ball towards a single-payer system, some time down the road; whereas, the younger cohort viewed the ACA as a failure because it is not a single-payer system.

I found this an interesting concept. What think you?

30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I had an interesting discussion the other day ... (Original Post) 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 OP
Sorry ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 #1
Thanks for a very interesting post! elleng Jul 2012 #3
Yeah ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 #8
I think having the Presidency, the Senate (with 60 votes) and the House Indydem Jul 2012 #2
Where does 'we could have had the whole enchilada' come from, exactly? elleng Jul 2012 #4
I do not know. Indydem Jul 2012 #5
'Encilada' from Herb Kalmbach, talking on the phone to Nixon’s assistant John Erlichmann. elleng Jul 2012 #6
It wasn't Obama's failure, it was a conservative Congress's failure Warpy Jul 2012 #7
Exactly ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 #12
If you don't mind answering ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 #9
1981 n/t Indydem Jul 2012 #13
Seems to support the generational divide theory, Huh? n/t 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 #15
Indeed Indydem Jul 2012 #16
I wouldn't say that ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 #17
those who never went through the hard struggles of these movements SemperEadem Aug 2012 #29
+1,000,000 ... 1StrongBlackMan Aug 2012 #30
Maybe realism comes with age. n/t mzteris Jul 2012 #18
First ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 #10
Their is no way to know what Obama might or might not have accomplished....... wandy Jul 2012 #11
I'm 39 JustAnotherGen Jul 2012 #14
Obama does play the long game .... kwassa Jul 2012 #19
My legal background ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 #21
And JustAnotherGen Jul 2012 #25
That's ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 #27
Part of his long game is HOW he conducts himself. kwassa Jul 2012 #26
I think your thesis is right on the money. MADem Jul 2012 #20
This is a fantastic argument, 1SBM Number23 Jul 2012 #22
I guess you're right ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2012 #23
"I guess I never really consider DU representative of anything approaching my real world." Number23 Jul 2012 #24
If I were to guess JonLP24 Jul 2012 #28
 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
8. Yeah ...
Wed Jul 11, 2012, 01:28 PM
Jul 2012

I originally got the group together about 10 years ago ... just because I thought interesting people would like to meet other interesting people.

After the first meeting, we come together 4-5 times a year and some very real friendships (and one marriage) have developed.

 

Indydem

(2,642 posts)
2. I think having the Presidency, the Senate (with 60 votes) and the House
Wed Jul 11, 2012, 12:48 PM
Jul 2012

and not enacting single payer health care for all Americans is a failure.

What we got is a boon to privately run insurers and leaves far too much power in the hands of backwater douchebag governors to fiddle with.

ACA is a failure. I still, to this day, can't understand why any progressive or liberal looks at that hunk of crap and says "yeah, good enough." when we could have had the whole enchilada.

elleng

(130,126 posts)
6. 'Encilada' from Herb Kalmbach, talking on the phone to Nixon’s assistant John Erlichmann.
Wed Jul 11, 2012, 12:59 PM
Jul 2012

The idea that we could have had 'single payer' or any such is completely outlandish, imo, considering all the crap President Obama had to deal with.

Warpy

(110,900 posts)
7. It wasn't Obama's failure, it was a conservative Congress's failure
Wed Jul 11, 2012, 01:19 PM
Jul 2012

Congress is choked with dead wood from both parties. Democrats have recognized this and in the bloodbath of 2010, most of the Democratic seats lost were Blue Dog seats. Yes, Teabaggers are far worse but I don't fancy their chances of holding their seats particularly long, not after the Clown Congress, which is what I think this one should be known as.

People are slowly waking up to the fact that the best President can stop a lot of bad legislation from going through but can't do much to force good legislation if Congress is full of lazy bastards whose whole function is to push money around instead of doing their jobs.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
12. Exactly ...
Wed Jul 11, 2012, 01:48 PM
Jul 2012
President can stop a lot of bad legislation from going through but can't do much to force good legislation if Congress is full of lazy bastards whose whole function is to push money around instead of doing their jobs.


I like to use the analogy of:

Getting angry with President Obama for what hasn't happened is a lot like getting angry with your friend because his brother won't let you use his car.

Your friend can ask, demand, cajol, or even threaten, his brother to move him to loan you his car; but at the end of the day, it is the brother that says yes or no. And that answer is the one that determines whether you drive, walk or catch the bus.
 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
17. I wouldn't say that ...
Wed Jul 11, 2012, 04:37 PM
Jul 2012

Just maybe, idealism, becomes recognized for what it is ... an unattainable goal, not a tactic for getting things done.

SemperEadem

(8,053 posts)
29. those who never went through the hard struggles of these movements
Wed Aug 8, 2012, 09:15 AM
Aug 2012

which took place 20 years prior to 1980 pretty much take for granted the advances that were hard fought in the 1960's and took an enormously long amount of time to achieve (pretty much since the beginning of the US). For them, it's like if it's not instantaneously produced to their exact liking, it's a failure. That pretty much amounts to a temper tantrum, IMO. Most of the Dems/Progressives who sat out the 2010 elections were having tempter tantrums. They did not have as their history and memory the hard struggle it takes to swell "critical mass" to the point where it overtakes the obstacle and washes it away with the force of its tide.

The ACA is in no way a failure. Failure would have been a repeat of Clinton and his attempt at reforming it. Is it what folks wanted? No. Is it the best that could have been moved through which could withstand a visit to the supreme court? It appears that it is, since that is exactly what happened. What I take from it is that now, I don't have to remain chained to a job I don't like just because they offer good benefits and I need those benefits for the quality of my life. Were babygirl under the age of 26, she could have been put on my insurance. My wellness check ups are free now. The insurance company has to put 80% of what I and my employer pay it towards health care and not towards a 3rd summer home for the CEO's overindulged wife. I can't be turned out to shift for myself because I have a pre existing condition. My sister now can get insurance because she does have a serious pre existing condition; her daughter can now be covered; my mom doesn't have to shell out $$ to make up the donut hole.

I'm sorry, but I don't call all of that a failure. I call that a huge step forward... but because I'm 52 and not 30, I can appreciate the fight that took place to get this in place.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
30. +1,000,000 ...
Wed Aug 8, 2012, 02:57 PM
Aug 2012

Well stated.

With age and experience, one should learn to persevere; but how does one explain the DUer presence that (by their claim) lived through the struggle and still call moving the ball forward, failure because it did not cross the goal line?

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
10. First ...
Wed Jul 11, 2012, 01:41 PM
Jul 2012

When did we (I'm assuming you mean Democrats) have "Presidency, the Senate (with 60 votes) and the House", except in gop talking points? Perhaps you may have heard the names Liebermann and Nelson?

Secondly, and more importantly, at what point in history could we have had the whole enchilada? (see the above)

wandy

(3,539 posts)
11. Their is no way to know what Obama might or might not have accomplished.......
Wed Jul 11, 2012, 01:46 PM
Jul 2012

Their are three branches of government and somehow they must reach compromise at least some of the time.
In the first 3 years, Obama was handed nothing but obstructionism.

Tell me; Do you think we would have put a man on the moon if the house took this attitude towards John Kennedy?

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
14. I'm 39
Wed Jul 11, 2012, 02:45 PM
Jul 2012

So can I say, "A little bit of both?"

Today I'm leaning a bit more towards "set up for the future".

President Obama just layed a sneaky sucker punch on those opposed to a Single Payer Health Care. And he did it through first responders. Step by step, inch by inch . . .

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
19. Obama does play the long game ....
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 10:59 PM
Jul 2012

and he doesn't perfectly represent my thinking, not that he has an obligation to do so. He is to the right of me.

I think he does what he believes is possible, and he is a pretty good strategist, highly intelligent, though opaque in his real thoughts and beliefs. He does what he can in this poisonous, vile political sewer-scape that passes for governing right now. His greatest quality is that he is a grown-up amidst the tea party toddler tantrums of the Republican party.

I don't see the foundation thing, and I am one of the over-50 crowd. I am more of the do-able crowd, though I was very angry at points where I felt he caved too early.

however, I never believed the hype in his first election campaign, though I did go to the inauguration, and froze my ass off. I have low expectations of Democratic presidents, as all presidents have less control than the public thinks. All of them in my lifetime have disappointed me, except possibly Clinton, who started off very badly and managed to pull it out. He had the benefit of a boom economy, though. Nobody since the Great Depression has shit to face like Obama.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
21. My legal background ...
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:28 PM
Jul 2012

gives me a special appreciation for President Obama's long game thinking.

I don't know how involved he is in the strategic planning; but I suspect he is very involved because just about everything that has been/is being done ... one learns arguing in the court room.

Attorneys approach arguments by introducing where we are and how we got here, framing it in terms of the outcome one desires ... hitting (but not hammering) each point; then he/she establishes the case by lying out evidence supporting/proving the elements of the case; then, the case is concluded by summarizing the case.

Attorneys are taught to lay out the case in sequential order (the Prima Facie Case), i.e., In order to prove my case, I must establish element A, followed by element B, followed by element C. This works well (is required) in brief writing. Further, it is easiest to convince someone of something when they can anticipate where you are going ... so long as they agree with where you are going. But this strategy is arguably less effective in cases before a skeptical audience.

In that case, the stand-out attorney presents the elements in an apparent random sequence ... establishing each element, then moving onto the next, unrelated element.

While this is difficult for most in the legal field to follow ... because of how we are trained ... and can be frustrating for the higher functioning critical thinking members of the audience; but it forces the audience to focus on each element separately, without the competing noise of the audience thinking, "Okay, I got it" and begin considering points you don't want them to consider. Rather, they focus on, and hopeful accept, your having proved the point in front of them.

Then, the stand-out attorney, after establishing each element separately returns to the Prima Facie Case, inserting the individually proved, and accepted, elements into the expected sequential order.

When done effectively, one can almost hear a collective, "Ahhh ... Okay" throughout the court, as you make the connections they sought from the start. It is difficult to not accept the totality of an argument, once you have come to accept the individual components of the argument.

This is what I see President Obama (and/or his team doing) ... They hit a policy point, then move onto a seemingly unconnected policy point.

I think as we close in on the general election (I suspect about a week after the gop convention), the team will have laid out all of their policy points and will move into the closing argument (tying it all together) phase.

Bravo Mr. Attorney President!

JustAnotherGen

(31,681 posts)
25. And
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:09 AM
Jul 2012

Isnt it true that Attorneys never ask questions unless they reasonably certain of what the answer will be?

President Obama is a Harvard educated attorney after all!

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
27. That's ...
Sun Jul 15, 2012, 10:23 PM
Jul 2012

The FIRST rule of direct and cross examination!

Direct is easy because you're asking your witness and you have already prepared them with the answer; but cross ... that's a whole different animal. They may answer like the did during the deposition; but then again, sometimes they have a whole different answer. That's when attorneys put on they dancing shoes.

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
26. Part of his long game is HOW he conducts himself.
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 07:36 PM
Jul 2012

He is always civil, moderate in his expression, reasonable, logical, and very intelligent.

I've heard more than one Republican say they like him, even if they disagree with his policies.

Many Republicans just don't like Romney, even if they politically agree with him.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
20. I think your thesis is right on the money.
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 05:02 AM
Jul 2012

When I was younger, I wanted it all, I wanted it now. Now that I am older I can look back down a road of progress and actually see that progress was made.

Big huge shoves are always more dramatic than little nudges, but enough of those little nudges will get us there, too.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
22. This is a fantastic argument, 1SBM
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 07:43 PM
Jul 2012

But, using DU as an example, the loudest, wrongest and most ignorant people here are the ones that love to remind everyone that they were smoking pot every day back in the 60s (as well as now).

So although I do think that age is definitely one schism, I still think that at the end of the day, race still plays an even bigger one.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
23. I guess you're right ...
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:01 PM
Jul 2012

I guess I never really consider DU representative of anything approaching my real world.

And then again, maybe my sample was skewed because the group was mostly African-American, then Mexican, with only a couple white. And the white folks general take the MHP view regarding race/ethnicity issues ... they listen and don't talk, except to ask for clarification.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
24. "I guess I never really consider DU representative of anything approaching my real world."
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:03 PM
Jul 2012

The mark of true and deep-seated sanity. Thank God.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
28. If I were to guess
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 08:22 AM
Jul 2012

your sample was too small to trust.

Look at exit polls and see the over '50 and who they voted for and the under '50 and who they voted for to get a better idea of "idealism of youth", "urgency of now", and "conservatism that comes with age." From my understanding those that are over '50 have the more positive view of Obama when overall that clearly isn't the case.

As far as your question, I can't answer. To know if Obama is doing what is doing or laying a foundation for what is possible later I couldn't the answer the question with any certainty without guessing his motivations. I rate him based on an issue-by-issue basis, there are issues where he clearly is doing what he only can do(roadblocks by blue dogs and Republicans), issues where he can do more, and issues where he made the wrong decision. As far as ACA, it could lead to better legislation down the road and is better than nothing but wasn't a fan(not because it wasn't single-payer, the requirement to purchase from private insurance firms). I classify ACA as "doing what he can only do" though I felt he could have negotiated it better.

Overall I think he is doing a good job. There are others I'd rather have but from the Big 3 from '08, (Obama, Clinton, and Edwards). I would vote for Obama again.

I noticed a post mentioning DU and generational divide I found interesting. I've noticed a lot of posts saying DU is not representative of the real world which I agree but not for reasons some here might not think. Look at stories that are not political, you'll see wide ranges of opinions that I've found elsewhere. The biggest stories here are often the biggest stories discussed other places online or on network news. How DUers generally feel about the stories are similar to those in the real world. Obviously stories w/ a political bent will get an overall different reaction here than the real world.

I think the major areas DU is not representative of is primarily the younger crowd & non-whites based on non-scientific polls conducted here. When it comes to how DU compares to the real world referencing younger people, you won't find many posts here that deal w/ hobbies & interests that today's youth are currently interested in. Such as video games, current musical artists, & shows targeted for the demographic.

If you're curious, I'm under 30, some college, & dirt poor.


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