I wish we had the type of reckoning about racism, that Germany had about the holocaust

[La Lioness Priyanka]

when i heard Angela Merkel insist that Germans take responsibility and not deny what happened during the holocaust when Netanyahu tried to rewrite history, i realized that Germany is one of the few countries in the world that has actually learnt and grown from their past. They have done this by not minimizing the horrors they committed.

Why can't we do the same thing around slavery and Jim Crow and other form of violence towards black bodies?

Why do we always try to minimize the horrors/violence of racism?

[valerief]

1. Keeping the hate alive keeps rich people richer. The masses hate each other

rather than our real enemies.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. i disagree that the masses hate each other. I think this is false equivalency

Blacks did not keep white slaves, they did not lynch white people, and black cops are not shooting down unarmed white people.

This violence is in one direction.

[valerief]

3. I didn't mean the masses hate each other merely because of race.

There's sexism, homophobia, religion, and other tools of the very wealthy to keep us fighting each other.

But I agree with you. We need the same reckoning about slavery/racism as Germany has.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. Again, the direction of the violence is unidirectional

I wonder why you then generalize the underlying hatred.

Its hatred and fear and cruelty directed towards blacks by whites.

[JI7]

29. for some reason people just refuse to accept the facts

there is some difference in that many of them are willing to blame the US when it comes to foreign policy and use the "we killed them" when talking about overseas conflicts.

but when it comes to what happens here there is a refusal and minimization or a "both sides " type of thing.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Lyndon Johnson knew why:

[riversedge]

7. Oh, I do recall that quote. It is so true--yet if you

plug in minorities--or illegal immigrants --or Muslims --probably gays for many yet--it would fit. Yet Blacks seem to hold a certain place to this day--more subtle at times yet still present.

[Scootaloo]

5. There's actually a big difference

The Holocaust was pure loss.

On the other hand, the United States has made significant gains thanks to racism and ethnic violence. It's how we acquired all of our territory. It's how we built our nation's wealth. It's how we structured our society. Confronting the hate and violence means challenging those gains, questioning that society.

[1StrongBlackMan]

8. I'm going to have to re-visit this, later ...

I don't know what the "pure loss" part means; but, my on my first reading, I agreed ... then, on a second reading, I thought, "yes, this is all true; but, it was also true of Germany ... the Holocaust, also, was financially/economically beneficial to the 'German elites', while not for the German 99% ... it was, also, how German society was structured."

While Nazi Germany existed for a much, much shorter time, either there is something inherent to the German culture; or, possibly, the fact to Nazi Germany was defeated, and monitored, by an outside force, that gave them the space to accept and reconcile the evil that was done.

[Scootaloo]

10. It means that germany gained nothing from it, and only lost

Some [ui]germans did make out like, well, bandits. But that didn't become integrated into the nation itself. Now I suppose a parallel argument could be made for certain corporations that benefited from slave labor in Germany such as IBM and Volkswagen, though.

And there is a difference between one decade, and several centuries. Especially when the history prior to that decade is so different and, by most accounts, better in these regards.

And yeah, I suppose losing the war had a lot to do with it. if the US had lost the Mexican-American war, or if Tecumseh had been successful? Who knows, might have caused some introspection.

[JustAnotherGen]

11. Anti Semitism existed in a virulent form in Germany long before Hitler came to power

I.E. It wasn't all that difficult for him to get people to hate folks openly that they had resented and disliked quietly all along.

I think a better example might be Rwanda - in which the tribalism was manufactured by their Colonizers - rewarding those different tribes based on physical attributes, features, heritage. Boom. 75/80 years later - Kaboom.

And later - they would hold public accusations . . . acknowledgements - and forgiveness.

[JI7]

12. it existed all across europe and elsewhere . it was such a normal thing also

I read a lot and the jew is always presented as some sneaky greedy type character. The same way blacks and others of color are seen as savage and uncivilized.

I don't find it so surprising that people so easily went along with what was done.

[JustAnotherGen]

13. Amen

Absolutely correct. And the Europeans created that very 'world banking' conspiracy theory stereotype by pushing people who were Jewish into those jobs (tax collecters, money lenders) as far back as the middle ages. Those weren't the 'banksters' of today - that was not an 'elite' task in Europe in the middle ages.

They created and perpetuated the racist nonsense out of thin air - just as they did in Rwanda.

[Number23]

14. Spot on, JAG. Absolutely. One of the main reasons Hitler was so successful was because of his

ability to tap into the racism and anti-Semitism that was already firmly entrenched in German culture.

I think a better example might be Rwanda - in which the tribalism was manufactured by their Colonizers

I agree. You could reference just about any African or Middle Eastern country along those lines. Or India/Pakistan.

[1StrongBlackMan]

6. Because ...

the #NotAllWhitePeople mentality rules among too many white Americans.

Had an equal amount Germans responded to their history with #NotAllGermans, they would be in the same space as America.

[JustAnotherGen]

9. You are onto something here

And well - in terms of slavery - it's true.

On the other hand - who has benefited from Jim Crow if in action if not by name - yeah . . . the 'Not All' will impede a country wide reckoning.

[Chitown Kev]

15. K & R

back to comment on tis after I make a run.

[Number23]

16. And as usual, non-regulars have come in to chime about economics

But at the end of the day, I think "we always try to minimize the horrors/violence of racism?" because it's a hell of alot easier than actually acknowledging that this country was built on one of the greatest evils this world has ever seen and whose effect we are still feeling today.

And it's also a hell of alot easier to minimize the horrors of racism than for the people who have benefited from it the most to acknowledge that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. this. nt

[lovemydog]

19. Yes. Many know it. We know it. The rest of the world knows it.

And yet so many in this country either claim to not know it or get pissed off and defensive if it's mentioned. Too many self-proclaimed liberals are in denial about it or they go hot with rage when its mentioned, to the point of calling someone who mentions it racist. That's ignorant and disgusting. Makes me sick.

President Obama is the first President in American history to accurately acknowledge it. For many reasons including this, he's the best President I've seen. I like how he often acknowledges that we never did have and do not now have a 'perfect union' but rather that we can and should continue trying to 'build a more perfect union.'

[Number23]

20. You nailed it. And that's because for all of their self-proclaimed ideologies and philosphies

of wanting the best for everyone, white liberals have benefited from racism every bit as much as everyone else.

The difference is that as I see from so many of the regulars in this forum, white liberals (REAL white liberals) will also be the ones to help us eradicate it. And they will do that at great personal sacrifices to themselves which will make them the very definition of 'liberals.'

[lovemydog]

21. Thanks for your reply.

I think you're right. I also think far too many white self-proclaimed liberals react hysterically and defensively and personally at the notion that they have any bit of racism in their body. To the point where they can't even see the meaning of someone else's post which isn't necessarily calling them out specifically. They take it so personally that it sends them into blind rage. Then they lash out at the poster and act in an incredibly condescending or patronizing manner, seemingly oblivious to the further racism they show by not acknowledging even the slightest bit of fault on their own part. I sometimes wonder if some of these folks were raised by parents who told them they are always good or always perfect. You know, like the 'everyone gets a gold star - everyone is a winner' type of thing. Getting out into the real world (past this cocoon) can either lead to some serious self-reflection or in the case of some white self-proclaimed liberals, ugly narcissism. This failure to admit to themselves that they may have some racism (personally, I think we all have prejudices) leads them to behave like obnoxious spoiled children. And impedes healthy communication.

[Number23]

25. "I sometimes wonder if some of these folks were raised by parents who told them they are always good

Could be that, lmd.

Or it could be, that alot of these people are simply assholes.

[emulatorloo]

28. I vote for the asshole option

IMHO they lack interest in self-reflection or perhaps the ability to self-reflect.

If they could they would be able to see beyond themselves and not be so damn defensive when people talk about white privledge or institutionalized racism.

So they get very belligerent and start twisting words, manufacturing quotes claiming people are calling them white supremacists or calling Bernie a racist.

For what it is worth the loudest of these posters have a long posting histories. Empathy and understanding and the ability to see the big picture has never been their strong suit.

[Number23]

30. I wish to God you could make this an OP in this forum

So they get very belligerent and start twisting words, manufacturing quotes claiming people are calling them white supremacists or calling Bernie a racist.

This is exactly the rancid stupidity that has been blanketing GDP for MONTHS. That black people "were calling Bernie racist" because many spoke up loudly and often that they felt that his adherence to economics didn't adequately address racism. If that's all it takes for them to consider Bernie having been called a racist, it's no wonder they feel that he and they are ALWAYS being called racist.

When that BLM protestor spoke about the "white supremacist attitude" of many on the left, too many Bernie supporters couldn't WAIT to make that leap that she was calling all white Bernie supporters white supremacists, as oblivious to her message as they were hostile to it. And even when white people who live in the Seattle area were saying, "well she has a point. Seattle (like the rest of America) does have an unsavory racial history and liberals aren't exempt from that" it didn't make a damn bit of difference.

White posters in this forum have talked about Seattle's racial history (I think it was either scarletwoman, gollygee or Starry that have done some great posts on this) which is unquestionably what that woman was referencing. The "must protect Bernie at all costs" mentality has revealed some truly ugly, disturbing and incredibly UNLIBERAL thinking from alot of Sanders supporters, though we all know they would never admit that.

[scarletwoman]

31. Re: Seattle's racial history - I believe it was F4lconF16 who did some great posts about this.

I think she/he lives in Seattle.

This is perfect:

When that BLM protestor spoke about the "white supremacist attitude" of many on the left, too many Bernie supporters couldn't WAIT to make that leap that she was calling all white Bernie supporters white supremacists, as oblivious to her message as they were hostile to it. And even when white people who live in the Seattle area were saying, "well she has a point. Seattle (like the rest of America) does have an unsavory racial history and liberals aren't exempt from that" it didn't make a damn bit of difference.

[Number23]

32. Really?? I could have sworn it was you or Starry or gollygee

We've got so many fabulous posters posting so much knowledge in this group sometimes it really is hard to keep track.

[gwheezie]

24. Great post

I had this argument with a founder groupie who insisted this country was founded by great men who wanted freedom, huh no, they didn't want to pay taxes, they wanted to be free to keep the money they were making off the not free peoples blood sweat and tears.
It worked out pretty good for white men.

[Number23]

26. "It worked out pretty good for white men."

It always has.

And your comment about the Founders is beyond true too. How anyone could think that a group of men who built tremendous wealth and power by enslaving entire FAMILIES of people for decades and denying women even basic rights were all about "freedom" just goes to show you how deep the cognitive dissonance can be for some people.

[Scootaloo]

27. Except that's exactly what I'm talking about above, number23

And it's also a hell of alot easier to minimize the horrors of racism than for the people who have benefited from it the most to acknowledge that.

Think about it, though; Benefited how? What did the people killing and plundering native societies gain? What was gained through the enslavement of Africans? What was the benefit if the wink-wink-nudge-nudge slavery of sharecropping? What was the benefit of slaughtering Mexicans, and then "inviting" them to work for little to no pay? Same with the Chinese, what was the benefit of putting them into slave conditions/ What was the benefit of the same practices in smaller scale visited upon America's pacific holdings, whether permanent (Hawaii) or temporary (the Philippines.) What is the benefit today of the exploitation of Mexicans and other Latin Americans, the outright enslavement of Chinese and Vietnamese and Malawians and Congolese in their own borders, and the political and military oppression against Arabs and middle eastern peoples?

What's the benefit gained from all of this? Do you think it's just for fun, someone getting their jollies off?

Money. Wealth. That's what the benefit was, and is. People got very wealthy from brutalizing first Natives, then Africans. They got very wealthy, stealing Natives' land and resources. They became wealthy doing the same to Mexicans. And Hawaiians. And Filipinos. And all the others, and certainly some I have missed.

And that wealth and its effects have become so thoroughly ingrained in the culture and operation of the United States, that to challenge them, their acquisition, and seek to address the impacts, runs into a wall of jingoistic, racialist, empty-headed "national pride." I'm sure you've seen it. "You just hate 'murika," right? whenever talk comes to slavery, or the abuse of natives, or the crazy-ass wars of empire we had? Are having? "You just hate 'murika!"

That's why it's easier for Germans to address and seek redress for their national sins. Their identity as a people is not wrapped up in all the benefit they got from the horrors perpetrated in the Holocaust. America on the other hand? Our map would not exist without it.

[Spazito]

34. Well said! n/t

[lovemydog]

17. I do too.

I've thought so much over the years about your questions too. I wish there was one simple answer but I'm convinced there are many reasons, some very simple and some very complex. We (and by 'we' I mean white people) have to address every single one properly and effectively.

Others on the thread have astute observations. I'd just like to add one. With Nazi Germany, the US and our allies demanded unconditional surrender.

[betsuni]

23. I wonder if it has something to do with American individualism.

Americans would rather give excuses than apologize or take responsibility. Bullshitting is respected. You're expected to have opinions about everything and rather than admit not knowing, you bullshit. it's easy to avoid any guilt about anything your country has done if you don't really think you have anything to do with your society.

I get overwhelmed when in the States. Going out to dinner: you have to make a reservation like it's a big deal (they're saving a table just for us!), fifteen salad dressing and you have to pick one, five different kinds of bread, how do want your food cooked -- the decisions never end. At the supermarket, thirty kinds of tortilla chips, sausages made with jalapenos, cheese, artichokes, mango, dandelions. I refuse to go in those fancy coffee places and order a ridiculously customized drink in pseudo Italian. I won't do it. I just want a fucking cup of coffee.

Of course all this choice is great, but it's also a bit too ... indulgent. The illusion that you are an individual in everything.

And in such a competitive society, defensiveness comes naturally. Donald Trump is the best illustration. A master at bullshit, says things without even thinking, never listens, narcissist, defensive. So that's my little theory.

Japan is the worst about denying its past. There was some unpleasantness last century, but don't listen to those nasty rumors. If you ignore something it goes away, eventually. The old people who lived through the war are dying off and with them goes history.