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Sat Nov 28, 2015, 12:00 AM

Are movement politicians like Bernie tone deaf?

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_28818555/harrop-intolerance-bernie-sanders

That's the problem with movement politics, no matter what end of the political spectrum they occupy. Movement politics tend to be narcissistic and dictatorial. They allow dissent only within a narrow philosophical band. That constrains the ability to hear through others' ears.

SNIP

Sanders has much mellowed since then, but he still inhabits a self-righteous cocoon that has made him an ineffective and marginal figure in the Senate.

Even Democrats express frustration at working with Sanders, an independent who caucuses with them. Moderates bristle at his moralizing and refusal to make compromises required to pass needed legislation. The undeniably liberal Barney Frank, former rep from Massachusetts, complained of Sanders' "holier-than-thou attitude."

Bernie's positions on civil rights have been close to impeccable, but his history with nonwhites is more complicated.

Back in 1960s New York, black radicals weren't keen to sit at the knees of white intellectuals and be told what's what. The ensuing tensions prompted many white radicals to flee to the more accommodating hills of Vermont. Sanders was one. There's no gentler way to put this, but they were part of the era's white flight.

62 replies, 7067 views

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Reply Are movement politicians like Bernie tone deaf? (Original post)
pnwmom Nov 2015 OP
saltpoint Nov 2015 #1
bravenak Nov 2015 #3
saltpoint Nov 2015 #4
bravenak Nov 2015 #5
saltpoint Nov 2015 #6
bravenak Nov 2015 #7
murielm99 Nov 2015 #10
bravenak Nov 2015 #11
MADem Nov 2015 #12
guillaumeb Nov 2015 #26
MADem Nov 2015 #29
guillaumeb Nov 2015 #30
MADem Nov 2015 #31
guillaumeb Nov 2015 #32
randys1 Dec 2015 #62
Kind of Blue Nov 2015 #22
mcar Nov 2015 #40
Cha Dec 2015 #57
Cha Dec 2015 #56
bravenak Dec 2015 #58
Cha Dec 2015 #59
bravenak Dec 2015 #60
Recursion Nov 2015 #45
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2015 #49
Omaha Steve Dec 2015 #61
bravenak Nov 2015 #2
Joe Turner Nov 2015 #8
bravenak Nov 2015 #9
Kind of Blue Nov 2015 #13
bravenak Nov 2015 #14
Kind of Blue Nov 2015 #15
bravenak Nov 2015 #16
Kind of Blue Nov 2015 #18
bravenak Nov 2015 #19
Kind of Blue Nov 2015 #20
bravenak Nov 2015 #21
Kind of Blue Nov 2015 #23
bravenak Nov 2015 #28
Kind of Blue Nov 2015 #39
bravenak Nov 2015 #41
betsuni Nov 2015 #42
bravenak Nov 2015 #43
betsuni Nov 2015 #44
Kind of Blue Nov 2015 #17
zappaman Nov 2015 #36
Kind of Blue Nov 2015 #38
Coolest Ranger Nov 2015 #24
Number23 Nov 2015 #25
GitRDun Nov 2015 #33
Number23 Nov 2015 #48
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2015 #51
Agnosticsherbet Nov 2015 #27
ucrdem Nov 2015 #34
Agnosticsherbet Nov 2015 #35
ucrdem Nov 2015 #37
Coolest Ranger Nov 2015 #46
Agnosticsherbet Nov 2015 #47
Coolest Ranger Nov 2015 #50
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2015 #52
Agnosticsherbet Nov 2015 #53
1StrongBlackMan Nov 2015 #54
Agnosticsherbet Nov 2015 #55

Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 12:03 AM

1. Sanders hears just fine, especially

when working class people are talking, or describing their plight in a thankless economy which asks them to work very hard for correspondingly meager pay and benefits.

I'd place his hearing on these issues at the top of list of candidates.

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Response to saltpoint (Reply #1)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 12:05 AM

3. Then why

 

Did he neglect to mention that the Sanitation Workers were black men fighting for the same pay as white men? That is a historical fact that we have discussed here. We felt erased from our own history. Does he hear us? Can you go tell him?

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Response to bravenak (Reply #3)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 12:08 AM

4. Sanders' record on economic

issues surpasses his Democratic rivals' records.

With plenty of room to spare.

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Response to saltpoint (Reply #4)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 12:09 AM

5. What does that have to do with my post?

 

You see? That is why he cannot get traction. We ask a question, the answer has nothing to do with our question.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 12:13 AM

6. It has as much to do

with your post as the OP's quoted article has to do with Sanders' record.

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Response to saltpoint (Reply #6)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 12:14 AM

7. Good luck

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 01:03 AM

10. The answer will always be economics,

no matter what the question.

You could ask a Bernie supporter what the weather is supposed to be for the next Bernie event, and they would answer, "Look at Bernie's record on economics."

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #10)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 01:04 AM

11. It grates on my nerves

 

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #10)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 01:47 AM

12. They don't want to see that "economics," even with an improved economy,

does not change the "last hired, first fired" dynamic. It takes effort in the social justice arena to shift that paradigm.

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Response to MADem (Reply #12)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 04:27 PM

26. What an excellent point. You should make this the subject of a post. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #26)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 04:57 PM

29. Oh, we've gone around that rosebush. Poor Bravenak got hides for daring to mention it.

It's really funny how "Jobs for Joe Lunchbox" can be a priority, and magically tossing out a few jobs is somehow supposed to improve the schools so that minority applicants can compete for those jobs, AND magically improve the transportation system so that minority applicants, the last hired, will be able to travel to these jobs (which odds are good will not be sited in their neighborhoods).

The social justice end of things needs to be fixed, and soon. The other piece can only follow if the playing field is at least somewhat leveled. Otherwise, the disparity becomes more evident.

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Response to MADem (Reply #29)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 05:02 PM

30. It can be hard to solve a puzzle with the biggest piece missing.

As a union activist for nearly 40 years in a Federal Government agency, the USPS, I constantly read how the Federal Government was colorblind when it came to hiring. But my reality, as a steward who provided representation, was that non-white workers were far more often targeted for discipline. The disparity of discipline and penalties for alleged infractions was quite apparent.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #30)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 05:24 PM

31. EXACTLY.

The playing field is not only NOT level, some players are getting penalized for looking sideways at the ref! From the bench, no less!

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Response to MADem (Reply #31)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 05:35 PM

32. And many of the players are unaware that the field is unlevel.

Denial is a huge part of the blindness. All part of the myth of equal opportunity that is used to blame the many victims of this system for a failure to thrive.

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Response to MADem (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 1, 2015, 03:33 PM

62. I cant help myself here, did you hear Superman is real, actually alive? Exists?

His name is Stephen Curry


sorry for the OT but I am a basketball guy, and this guy blows my mind And what you said made me think of him




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Response to murielm99 (Reply #10)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 05:03 AM

22. HA! I do have to say though some of his

supporters, who don't harass, cause me not to cast a blind eye. But it seems there are so few of them stepping up to the fanatics. But then again, how does one speak reason to the unresonable reasonably? The fanatics, I'm afraid, will win besides the hurdles Sanders has to overcome and not just with us.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 03:56 PM

40. This is exactly so

One track minds.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 1, 2015, 04:06 AM

57. Yeah, they must think they're doing bernie a favor.. it's just the opposite.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 1, 2015, 04:04 AM

56. It has nothing to do with your question.. and this is why BS is not popular with AA and Latinos..

He's tone deaf and so are too many of those who campaign for him.

Epic fail in deflection.

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Response to Cha (Reply #56)

Tue Dec 1, 2015, 04:06 AM

58. This tactic is not cool. It does nothing for him.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #58)

Tue Dec 1, 2015, 04:25 AM

59. It's too robotic.

Needs some heart..

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Response to Cha (Reply #59)

Tue Dec 1, 2015, 04:32 AM

60. They can think of nothing.

 

Because they are going to lose.

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Response to saltpoint (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:09 AM

45. And his one issue, of stagnation, is entirely a white male narrative

Women and people of color have seen amazing economic gains over the past 40 years. White males have not. He's running a campaign whose narrative is entirely based on that stagnation, and unsurprisingly it's only getting a lot of traction in the communities (white males) that it relates to.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #45)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 03:03 PM

49. Good Observation ... And here's a different but related point ...

 

Even with the amazing economic gains of African-American males; we still earn (on average) 75.1% of a white male peers ... worse than that, if one happens to be a Female of Color. (Bright spot though ... the disparity is only 78% for white Females).

Just as your comment explains the traction among white males; it, also, gives a hint as to the lack of traction in non-white (male) communities.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 1, 2015, 11:50 AM

61. Send me an email


It won't be a quick response, but you will get one.

OS

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 12:03 AM

2. YES

 

They only hear what they prefer to hear. They only notice what they want to notice.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 12:35 AM

8. You don't get it

 

to be a "go along to get along" pol you have to adhere to the Status Quo agenda-which the vast majority of politicians do to move up the political latter. If you like what is happening to this country under the status quo body politic, then Sander's is not your guy. You might though want to good look in the mirror...

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Response to Joe Turner (Reply #8)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 12:37 AM

9. This IS AA not GDP

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #9)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 03:48 AM

13. They're like damn robo-calls and it feels like harassment

at this point.

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Response to Kind of Blue (Reply #13)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 03:49 AM

14. Like there's an alert that goes out.

 

Then, they come.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #14)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 04:04 AM

15. Serious hyper active monitoring by

the sick ones who know good and well that we reserve the right and have the right to evaluate, as we see fit, how the candidates impact our lives.

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Response to Kind of Blue (Reply #15)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 04:11 AM

16. I liken it to a complusion..

 

I have my own compulsions but I try not to cause others too much stress. This constant lecturing is entirely too stupid to continue dealing with.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #16)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 04:27 AM

18. He is angry because there's absolutely no control

over how their candidate comes across. Instead of lecturing us, perhaps they should ask their beloved for advice on how he's handling this situation. He seems to be trying but I can't be sure yet. But I think the sickos think they know better than Sanders. I used to love drinking bitter tears of republicans and I can't believe I'm feeling the same about sick Sandernistas. But don't tell nobody, I'm loving it.

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Response to Kind of Blue (Reply #18)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 04:35 AM

19. Omg, you too?

 

I am preparing for the days of schadenfreude.
Lordy, Lordy, will it be positively morose around here. I will be drinking those tears up, putting them in my tea....
After all this showboating, it's all I can do.


Since we are now having daily seances of dead black leaders.....

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 04:57 AM

20. LOL! "daily seances of dead black leaders"

that they only have the power to contact and, once again, interpret. HA! The hubris is downright laughable. I wish they could see and hear how Dr. King felt about his pride in being black and pushed that pride and agency, and not this cuddly Santa some would like to believe in.

I don't give fig who wins the primaries because this is beyond the mindset of politics. Politics is the problem. So much brutality is still happening and so is a lot of victories against it - before the elections that has absolutely nothing to do with outcome. Bernie can't save us. Hillary can't save us. But we're starting to save ourselves NOW without either of their help.

I'm just eager to know which one of them we go after with the full concentrated power of our voices.

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Response to Kind of Blue (Reply #20)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 05:02 AM

21. I feel you.

 

I really have the same dilemma of not caring too much. Either way, I just don't want no gop. But Bernie seems to lack awareness, and that bothers me to no end.
I feel more pride in what we are accomplishing, and do not need Bernie elevated to some position of Black Liberation Icon, because that is just too much to take right now.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #21)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 06:22 AM

23. Yeah, I read an article this summer that Sanders is to

black liberation as Kim Kardashian is to the publishing industry - I had no idea she'd written a book to even follow the analogy. Just enuf effort to include on his minimal resume about us. It's only here that's being bantered about. So they can just go to their quiet rooms mumbling to each other about the other reality they live in, that Sanders was at the front of the issue when he's proven several steps back every step of the way. I think it's the desperate throwing everything out there hoping something will stick.

From here to kingdom come, black activists, writers, intellectuals, and every day people like us are refuting the ignorant ravings of insane people trying to rewrite history as it's happening.

I don't think Sanders lacks awareness. As I've said previously, he's not in this to win. His reactions/behavior are just too unsual to me for a block he needs. But either way, he or Clinton will have no choice but to mitigate a terrible situation to keep the GOP out, and I'm all for that.

Plus, I really think all of these fabrications are a way to piss us off because they have no control over the scenario, while their candidate is trying to evolve in the reality that exists in a positive way. Afterall, he hasn't said it recently and is moving away from his sparse record he staunchly thought validated his creds. It's too bad that all of this is about an election because I'd readily believe him. His supporters are working at odds with him and that's what's baffling. And why it's a perfect way for them to continuously unleash their frustration on a voting block they thought they could depend on, and know are inherently socialists but can't control.

All I can say is what else you got? What is next in, as you aptly put it, Bernie So Black scenario?!?!? Ugh, sickos, what's next to be beat down?

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Response to Kind of Blue (Reply #23)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 04:56 PM

28. Brilliant post.

 

This is the stupidest campaign season I have ever experienced. Nothing about it makes any damn sense at all.
And yes, I do think many are just doing it as a jab at us. I notice people watch me most closely. Nothing more we can do but watch. Just waiting to see what they throw next.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 03:41 PM

39. I went looking for exactly what you were

taking about. I assumed it was about the years of whitewashing Dr. King by people here. Finally saw it's more about removing Dr. King as a black revolutionary first and foremost and replacing him as someone who was well loved by the masses. Oh.My.God. When will they realize that everything he did was about POC first and foremost?

Once again, Bravo Bravenak, and thanks!

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Response to Kind of Blue (Reply #39)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 09:46 PM

41. They were just driving me crazy with their fantasies.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:30 AM

42. The Days of Schadenfreude! That is perfect.

I am preparing as well and can't wait for Schadenfreudefest.

By the way, you seem to be well on your way to becoming a larger-than-life celebrity-villain for the Sanders supporters. May I have your autograph, please?

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Response to betsuni (Reply #42)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 05:46 AM

43. Oh, yes indeed!

 

I am the reason Sanders is losing, I'm sure. I'll sign anything for you. Strange how one small woman manages to bully them all in Her own threads, one by one as they insult me.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #43)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:38 AM

44. Yes.

I clicked on something and found myself in the Sanders group wherein it was suggested that Bernie supporters stayed out of "threads meant to incite" (heh, the ones not crapping on Democrats) so that more Bernie supporters would be available for juries. But those same people constantly accuse others of alert stalking and swarming and gaming the system and so on. LOL.

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Response to Joe Turner (Reply #8)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 04:21 AM

17. You know bloody well that no one on this board

likes the status quo, ESPECIALLY US! You might want to finally look in the mirror to realize that your condescending response will not garner Sanders more support as we try to discuss how your candidate impacts US. You know this and want to unleash your dickery because you cannot let the democratic process play out among thinking individuals who might not agree with you. You need to get that we will take our time no matter how it makes your head explode. And I for one relish that your ire is because you have no hold on our minds and it makes you sick. The process will play out in our community as we see fit and no amount of bullying will change that.

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Response to Kind of Blue (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 01:48 PM

36. "Dickery"

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Response to zappaman (Reply #36)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 03:30 PM

38. Hehehehee...

I'd been wanting to use that word since I saw it but refrained so many times. Couldn't resist it this time.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 08:00 AM

24. Let them find out come the spring

Let our votes speak for ourselves. Personally flooding social media with Bernie is our guy is similar to flooding social media saying Ron Paul is going to win.

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Response to Coolest Ranger (Reply #24)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 04:22 PM

25. Flooding black people's social media with ANY candidate is a recipe for a big assed, embarrassing

failure. I don't have the first clue why everyone doesn't know that.

Ron and Rand, for all their massive crowds and fevered, unhinged fans have not gotten nearly as far as those crowds and fans would suggest. Everyone should learn how NOT to do things from the Pauls.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #25)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 09:38 PM

33. Nice job today 23

I've seen you and brave do your level best to educate in many threads today. You have far more patience than I.

Seems like for some only a bitter defeat will allow for an assessment of their losing strategy.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #33)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 02:52 PM

48. Thanks, GitRdun!

I usually leave this sort of stuff to bravenak. She has a far stronger stomach for dealing with these people than I do.

Seems like for some only a bitter defeat will allow for an assessment of their losing strategy.

These people have been AWASH in defeat for decades.From McGovern to Kucinich. You would think after such an endless streak of defeats they'd learn to play nicely with others but apparently, that's not ever going to happen.

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Response to Coolest Ranger (Reply #24)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:37 PM

51. And/But I have no problem with my suspicions that some of those doing the former ...

 

also did the latter.

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Response to pnwmom (Original post)

Sat Nov 28, 2015, 04:34 PM

27. Sanders is an economic warrior.

His economic message and belief system is what he cares about and act as blinders to other issues. His argument that economic justice will solve al the problems in our society is persuasive to those who do not suffer from other ills in our society.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #27)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 05:04 AM

34. The problem for Sanders is that he's been warring against Barack Obama.

For years. TARP, budget deals, NSA, TPP, you name it, Bernie didn't like it. And said so, loudly, bitterly, brutally. In fact it's the secret of his success. Who is sending all those donations? Voters who agree with "Bernie Sanders' Brutal Letter On Obama's Trade Pact," to take one example:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/05/bernie-sanders-michael-froman-tpp_n_6419874.html

And now the chickens are coming home to roost.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 01:03 PM

35. He has taken advantage of a fracture in the Democratic Party, between theprogressive/semi-socialist

left, and the traditional liberal to center left base of the Party.

He is running a revolution and uses stark, revolutionary rhetoric of class-struggle that appeals to a lot of people but weakens the base of the party. Obama is one of the more liberal Presidents we have had, and has moved the country left, but revolutionary class-struggle rhetoric about the 1%/corporations/oligarchy has been used successfully to alienate a chunk of the Party.

Republicans, at this point, are incapable of uniting around a candidate, but the base of their party will focus on whoever wins the nomination. If it is a traditional Republican, they may loose some people on the far right, though I doubt they will loose many. Their campaign will raise the specter of fear of the left, Christian values, national defense, and gun rights that Republican constituents answer.

We will see what happens to the Democratic Party after this election. I remember the disaster after Kennedy and Carter campaigns that aided in the election of Reagan.



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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #35)

Sun Nov 29, 2015, 02:35 PM

37. I think that's fair.

I see it a little more cynically I suppose, so to me the Occupy appeals sound like one more gimmick, like Sanders' TPP opposition which I imagine will fade to nothing shortly if it hasn't already. Now about 1980: I don't remember it all that clearly but I agree that the primary fight didn't help. Teddy was challenging an incumbent, though, so the scenario this year is a little different, although what I was pointing out in the last post is that by openly challenging Obama for six years Sanders has pretty much sunk any hope he had of taking the Dem nomination.


p.s. greetings to all and it is a great pleasure!

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 01:19 PM

46. I don't care if he's an economic warrior

He came out against President Obama in 2012 and as far as I'm concerned that's where his campaign failed, RIGHT THERE.

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Response to Coolest Ranger (Reply #46)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 02:01 PM

47. I was not and do not Support Sanders. That was just a statement on his campaign.

He is an economic warrior who appears to believe that economic justice will fix all the problems in our society. I think he is wrong. Racism was not created by the 1%, and neither was sexism.

As to his support of a primary challenge to Obama in 2012, he also failed to heed the lessons of history. Carter was primaried from the left, and that primary split the Democratic Party and helped Reagan win. Had a primary challenger from the left arose, I think Romney would have won in 2012.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #47)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 03:54 PM

50. Totally agree

He really lost me when he said that. I was a huge fan of his right up to that point I had to rewind that multiple times to make sure I heard that right.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #47)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:59 PM

52. See there is the sticking point ...

 

He is an economic warrior who appears to believe that economic justice will fix all the problems in our society.


I don't believe that Bernie thinks that economic justice will fix all the problems in our society ... just those problems faced by his base, i.e., mostly white males, while making the poor of every other group, a little better off through trickle down. Some must face the fact that this is what he is offering non-white, males residuals of initiative aimed elsewhere.

And ...

Racism was not created by the 1%, and neither was sexism.


This point will garner a lot of argument among the self-interested, pseudo-students of history, that is DU. For them, it is divide and conquer ... as if there was ever a time when the working-class factions were united.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #52)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:28 PM

53. Sanders argument and the 1% argument is rooted

In class strugle. Socialism sees Class as the root of all evil and seeks to create a classless society.

You may be right in thinking he only cares about his base.

I agree that my view of the source of racism and sexism is not one that a large number of people will agree with.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #53)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:39 PM

54. Trying hard to get in before the ...

 

"1SBM said, 'Bernie doesn't care about Black folks'!!!" crew ...

I didn't say he "only cares for his base" ... rather, I said, more to: "He is acting for his base", which will flow down to some members not of his base, thereby, benefiting them.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #54)

Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:47 PM

55. I agree.

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