Am I the only one shocked at how many DUers still don't "get it?"

[Blue_Tires]

I'm not just talking about the hardcore trolls and racists; but the longtime, 20,000+ post, everyone-knows-their-name members??

Would the DU of say five years ago be this divided and combative over the case and it's outcome? I know part of this is because there are a *lot* less of us here than there used to be, but a site supposedly about liberal, progressive politics shouldn't need a continuous black viewpoint counterweight to know that racial stereotyping and profiling is a BAD thing...

Or maybe things on the forum have always been like this, and I've just been blind to it??

[In_The_Wind]

1. It wasn't like this years ago.

[Blue_Tires]

4. Thanks...My memory is hazy but I didn't think DU had always been like this...

So what has changed? Why is it like this now?

[In_The_Wind]

6. I don't know what happened but DU has changed.

[daleanime]

48. There is a lot more money being spent.....

to 'spin (control?)' the conversation on every level including this one. It is having an impact.

[oberliner]

61. These seems a little paranoid

Are you suggesting people are paid to participate in the forum?

[ieoeja]

68. No, he's saying better propaganda is affecting people who were previously unaffected by it.

Then posters affected by the propaganda are posting here. He is saying these posters are victims of the spin, not perpetrator's of the spin.

[daleanime]

76. That is the big share of it.

[oberliner]

81. That makes sense

I can buy that explanation.

[hfojvt]

89. I said something similar

but where would people be getting propaganda on THIS case? Not from the M$M, as is the usual case.

Maybe it is just the fact that - a large percentage of DU is white people.

[daleanime]

70. Do you think the people who would spend millions....

controlling the MSM, but leave the internet (and us) alone?

[oberliner]

82. To what end?

Pretty sure hearts and minds are not being influenced by the trolling.

[heaven05]

99. I

have seen and personally been influenced by RW agents provocateurs and just plain racist trolls on this site. It has a lot of them. I soon can smell out their bullshit, but I have, to my shame, been tricked into believing things that just were not true. Lot of slick trolls here.

[frylock]

107. compassionate conservatism has infested the site

[Neoma]

41. Lets keep in mind all our dirty laundry is being shown.

By our new jury system. I think it makes a big difference.

[MADem]

104. NEOMA is RIGHT. I can not tell you how many times I used to see those

Message Removed By Moderator...blah, blah, blah rules.... posts and wonder, for half a second, what was said. Was it a bad swear? Was it a slur? Was it just a personal insult? Then I'd shrug and read on....

Now we know that some of these "frequently hidden" posters from days of yore weren't just using foul language or calling people poopy-heads, I guess.

[hfojvt]

87. how many years ago?

You mean in the good old days of OMC that we never had high post count people disagreeing with the majority.

Or in the good old days of Carlos?

But he pre-dates you. People used to tear their hair out and scream about the things Carlos would say. Yet he had tens of thousands of posts, and he used to write articles for the front page of DU.

And then there was MrBenchley who used to write the Bob Boudelang column for DU. And here's a post decrying the bad behaviour of Benchley http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=24446&mesg_id=24605

Over the years many high count posters have been given the boot, some of them from the left (Walt Starr and You Better Believe It) and some from the right, or suspected right (Hamden Rice, Old Leftie Lawyer (although she came back as Tangerine LaBamba until she passed away) and others I have forgotten, but not my darling Omega Minimo.

DU has NEVER been and hopefully WILL never be without some members who aggravate large groups of other members. Skinner's advice from a long time ago. If somebody posts something you strongly disagree with, then post a reply telling them why they are wrong, or if they really push your buttons, then put them on ignore.

[In_The_Wind]

93. Your words well put.

I remember one or two of the old DUers you've mentioned tho I don't believe I've exchanged post with any of those usernames.

[jaysunb]

106. Carlos Jacinto

Now, there's a blast from the past. LOL !

[Number23]

137. The fact that you think that BBI came from "the left" is pretty much all I need to know

[Whisp]

168. Old Leftie Lawyer has passed away?

oh, ...
She was very nice to me back way when and even sent me a CD of one of her favourite musicals - A Bronx Story, I think it was. I was touched by that, for her to go out of her way like that.

I have lost the CD but will find those songs now in her memory.

[MADem]

169. Didn't Walt Starr ask for it?

That's how I remember his departure....

[M0rpheus]

170. :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2507034

[MADem]

172. Ah, yes, there it is!!!! nt

[hfojvt]

171. he did, but before that happened, he had several threads locked

or even disappeared.

They were locked for good reason, because he was promoting 3rd parties. But he could have just as easily been axed for doing what Wonk and Teena did - they kept doing what they were told many times to stop doing. If he had NOT asked for it, he might just have easily started another 10 threads promoting 3rd parties and THEN gotten axed. Kind of six of one and half a dozen of another, except Walt eliminated the middleman.

[Niceguy1]

2. because there is a disconnect

Between what we know and what can be proven. I think he is guilty but I don't think the prosecution was able to prove what happened. To this day we really don't know what happened. That is why there is such division.

[handmade34]

5. nope

it is pretty clear what happened... crazy ass white man with loaded gun profiles black kid and kills him

[Niceguy1]

7. who threw the first

Punch??? We don't know. No one saw the start of the altercation. I suspect zimmy did but there is no proof.

[handmade34]

9. I don't

(pardon my language) fucking care who threw the first punch... a crazy ass white guy with a loaded gun stalked a black kid and killed him... that alone should outrage all of us!!!

[Niceguy1]

11. you can't convict

People based on feelings. I think that's where the problem lies. I think that's a bad precedent to set...even if I do think he is guilty

[Blue_Tires]

22. People have been convicted on "feeling", i.e., how well the prosecutor sells the case to the jury

and people have been convicted on less evidence than what Florida had against Zimmerman...

But this is all beside the point...Either people "get it" (and I'm not just talking about this case), or they don't; and nothing I say will ever make them understand...

[SeaLyons]

43. If the jury had used their common sense...

and understood that "reasonable" fear was not there, they could have convicted him.

[ieoeja]

72. "Please don't kill me. Oh, God, man, please don't kill me." You could hear the tears in the voice.

It could have been a man losing a fist fight crying and pleading for his life. Or it could have been the kid with a gun pointed at him.

How can you possibly have reasonable doubt about which of those two was pleading for their life?

The only good thing to come out of all this is that George Zimmerman will go down in history, not just as the only man in known history to beg for his life during a fist fight, but an ARMED man who begged for his life from an UNARMED man during a fist fight.

[GoneFishin]

27. I don't buy the "that's how the law works" bullshit. They gave GZ the benefit of the doubt and he

was not entitled to it. He conveniently killed the other witness freeing him to make up any old story. And the inconsistencies in his story indicate that he made shit up.

This would never fly if the skin colors were reversed.

We know he stalked and killed a boy who was minding his own business. He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt, because he is likely to say whatever he needs to in order to cover his ass.

The whole premise that the episode legally began at the onset of the physical confrontation is a frame invented by the defense and apologists, and that is bullshit. You are responsible for all of your bad decisions, not just the one's you make after you realize you have put yourself into a shitty position. Cherry picking of this sort is a cheap trick to shift the burden of proof to Travon, who is ... oh yeah ... dead.

People don't get a free pass because they eventually realized they made a mistake in their past. I always heard "you made your bed, now sleep in it".

George should have stayed in his fucking car. He knew that. He ignored that. And, he killed a boy.

[freshwest]

84. 'George should have stayed in his fucking car. He knew that. He ignored that.'

That's where I decided a long time ago that he was guilty. The sentence according the laws of Florida was the only thing I was unsure of in this case.

Guilty for getting out of the car. That was his ground, and he left it to pursue a vendetta. The sidewalk was Trayvon's and he trespassed on it to do what he'd always done all his life - cause harm to other people and break the law - repeatedly.

I kept hoping the jury would not buy into the distractions and be logical enough to consider that one point. Because everything that happened after that was Z's doing and it showed his intent.

A Texas jury did not buy going after someone the way that Z did in Florida. Z's story was as lame as this man's:

Stand Your Ground? Texas man kills teacher over noise complaint

A Texas man says he was justified in killing an elementary school teacher over a noise complaint because he was “standing my ground.”

Retired firefighter Raul Rodriguez is hoping that a video that he taped himself will prove that he was acting in self-defense when he gunned down P.E. teacher Kelly Danaher outside the victim’s home near Houston in May 2010.

On the video that was presented as evidence in court on Wednesday, loud music can be heard as Rodriguez tells Danaher to “turn it down.”

You need to stop right there,” Rodriguez says. “Don’t come any closer please. I’m telling you, I’m telling you, stop, I said stop right now or I will shoot you! … I fear for my life. I told you to stop, my life’s in danger, you got weapons on you, stay away from me.”

Read more:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/06/07/stand-your-ground-texas-man-kills-teacher-over-noise-complaint/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014138344

Texas man gets 40 years in stand-your-ground case

HOUSTON (AP) — A man who claimed Texas' version of a stand-your-ground law allowed him to fatally shoot a neighbor after an argument about a noisy party was sentenced Wednesday to 40 years for murder.

Raul Rodriguez, 46, had faced up to life in prison for the 2010 killing of Kelly Danaher.

Rodriguez, a retired Houston-area firefighter, was angry about the noise coming from a birthday party at his neighbor's home. He went over and got into an argument with 36-year-old elementary school teacher Danaher and two other men at the party.

In a 22-minute video he recorded on the night of the shooting, Rodriguez can be heard telling a police dispatcher "my life is in danger now" and "these people are going to go try and kill me." He then said, "I'm standing my ground here," and fatally shot Danaher and wounded the other two men.

Read more:

http://www.chron.com/news/article/Texas-man-gets-40-years-in-stand-your-ground-case-3665484.php

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014153592

[hfojvt]

79. and to think that I got a post deleted yesterday

for saying that people on the left do not seem to believe in self defense.

Yet here you are saying self defense does not matter. It does not matter if Trayvon started the fight and was winning the fight? Am I hearing that right?

I would say that you left something out, like so

"a crazy ass white guy with a loaded gun stalked a black kid and killed him...&quot after the "kid" started beating him up and he yelled for help for about twenty seconds).

I believe I have a right to be suspicious of people that I do not know - whether they are white or black or hispanic or asian. I'll go even further and say that I have a right, as a citizen of a supposedly free country, to be MORE suspicious of people of other races. It wasn't nice for that black guy to suspect I was a racist just because I am white, and it wasn't morally right, but it also was not illegal. Nor should it be.

I also have a right to follow people, even at night, and especially in my own neighborhood. That is not against the law, nor should it be.

It may be annoying to be profiled, suspected and followed, but it does NOT, nor should it, give you the right to assault the person you suspect is following you. People have a right to defend themselves, I would say, even "crazy a$$ white guys" have a right to defend themselves.

So I am not that outraged that somebody defended himself. It's a senseless tragedy for a kid to be killed, but it was a senseless tragedy precipitated by an assault. At least, I believe it was, and it might have been, and only one person knows for certain.

[noiretextatique]

111. still trying to sell that racist, bullshit lie, eh?

there is no evidence that zimmerman was defending himself...none. no DNA on martin, for example. his story is a self-serving racist fantasy that he knew would resonate with enough white people, like yourself, to get his sorry ass an acquittal.

[hfojvt]

112. you provide very little, almost no evidence, for calling something a "racist, bullshit lie"

When you say there is no evidence, you apparently then consider
1) the fact that Trayvon had ample time to escape
2) the fact of Zimmerman's injuries
3) the wet grass on the back of Zimmerman's coat
4) the testimony of John Good
5) the testimony that says Trayvon was on top (john Good again and others)
6) the evidence of somebody screaming for help

all of that is NO evidence.

You know what else? I don't know jack squat about DNA, and I suspect you do not either. Does an absence of DNA prove something? I have no idea how that works. How much DNA should be on my hand if I pop somebody in the nose in the rain.

I go around thinking that six pieces of evidence is more important than a lack of evidence in something I don't understand.

I THINK, perhaps strongly THINK that is what happened. You OTOH are ABSOLUTELY SURE that it did not.'

That's one of the troubling things - the absolute hostile certainty of the Zimmerman detractors.

[Number23]

138. You need to keep this crap out of this forum. This type of bullshit is not welcome here

I'll go even further and say that I have a right, as a citizen of a supposedly free country, to be MORE suspicious of people of other races.

Racism is okay in other forums, hell it positively THRIVES in some spots around here, but not in THIS forum. You are not welcome in this forum.

[hfojvt]

142. but how else

can I benefit from the vast wisdom of your posts?

Truthfully, I did not venture into this forum on purpose. This thread was on the front page as a "mover" when I clicked on it and started reading it. I understand there are some places on DU where dissenting opinions are even less welcome than they are in GD.

But thankfully, I have now become a better person thanks to your beneficent replies. Serendipity.

[Number23]

143. lol Honey there is no one on this web site that thinks you ventured into the African American

forum on purpose. NO ONE.

But now that you have been told that's where you're spewing your idiocy, you have been told that you are not welcome here. Please don't come back.

[rurallib]

29. Zimmerman was hunting - any black that night would have been his prey

he stalked the kid, stalked him and eventually shot him. Who gives a shit about the first punch?
White or black the stalker should be guilty.

[AndyA]

30. It's pretty obvious that Zimmerman made the first move, he was the aggressor

Once Trayvon Martin realized he was being followed, any actions he took could have been of a self defense nature. Why is Zimmerman allowed to plead self defense, but Martin wasn't allowed the same luxury?

Zimmerman was told to not go after Martin by the 911 operator. He didn't do as he was told.

Seems pretty obvious to me that Zimmerman was the instigator of all that happened, he took the first aggressive actions. That was a choice he made that resulted in the death of an innocent person. Everything that happened afterward is a direct result of Zimmerman taking that first step of following Martin. Zimmerman is responsible.

[heaven05]

38. this

first punch bullshit is just that, BULLSHIT!! This 17 year old had NO obligation to give an answer to this asshole, zimpig. He didn't have to stop if zimpig told him to stop. He couldn't help his black skin. Unless you're saying every black must stop at massas command. Is that what you're saying? The open phone to his girl friend has Trayvon shouting for zimpig to get off, away from him. "let me go". So who made first physical contact. Take you RW troll ass somewhere else and be a provocateur. You're shameful. Murderer supporter.

[1monster]

77. The jury should have been informed of Florida law which states that in self-defense cases, the

person who originally initiated the encounter can not use self-defense as a reason for justifiable homocide. In this case, there is no doubt that Zimmerman, by initially following Trayvon, begain the incident.

The defense argued against that information being included in the instructions to the jury. For whatever reason, the judge went along with the defense argument telling the jury that they had to disregard everything that happened before the final confrontation.

And the jury had to decide what the law required of them without every knowing what the law actually was.

As for not knowing the start of the altercation? We know. The nonemergency call made by Zimmerman was recorded and that recording was released to the public. He initiated everything and then compounded by following Trayvon with a loaded gun in violation of standard neighborhood watch practices and against the advice of the dispatcher.

[Blue_Tires]

10. I'm talking about general issues beyond the scope of the verdict...

i.e., how many DUers think it's perfectly OK for Zim to follow Martin that night, how many well-meaning DUers can't let go of that "black male = potential criminal to be wary of" association, among other things...

[Niceguy1]

14. I think it was wrong, but legal.

A conviction would have been easier if a crime had been comitted prior to the altercation.

[Blue_Tires]

20. You mean a conviction would have been easier if the cops didn't half-ass it

Because like I said; if Martin was white and female, then the state has ZERO problems building an airtight case...

[Niceguy1]

21. doubt it

I think this case is one of the few that just didn't happen. Even the fbi didn't find a racial component. But it did wake people up and maybe some good will come of that.

[Blue_Tires]

23. Thanks for beautifully illustrating my OP

[Scootaloo]

25. In other words, Niceguy is just completely dismissing the moral ramifications

All that matters here, for him and everyone else making the argument, is maintaining confidence that "the system worked" - and by 'worked' they simply mean 'produced a result.'

[heaven05]

56. produced

a result legalizing murder. And the zimpig supporters don't care about that unarmed dead 17 year old ended up on the ground with a bullet in his heart because he did not stop at white massas command.

[SemperEadem]

174. produced a result he can live with and sleep soundly at night with

it produced the wrong result.

[heaven05]

39. this

murder was LEGAL according to you. Man.!!!!! Lynching of blacks was legal at one time in sections of this nation. You are a RW troll supporter of an outright racist murderer.

[7962]

31. Maybe this will calm some folks down a bit: Jimmy Carter says the jury was right

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/jimmy-carter-george-zimmerman-verdict-94320.html

But I know theres one on here who keeps calling me every name in the book including a racist. Apparently he doesnt know the definition of the word!

[heaven05]

42. keep

popping up huh. Trolls are aplenty on this site. Racists too.

[7962]

62. ANd here he is folks! My own personal DU mental analyst!

Keep living in that sad world of yours while the rest of us try to make it a better place. Still havent looked up the meaning of the word yet, have you? It must make you feel better to throw it around, I guess. Funny how no one else here gives me hell for any of my comments. A different view or opinion, yes, vitriol, no. Trolls. Jeeze. Well, best wishes anyway.

[heaven05]

64. No

anaylsis. Fact of observation of your inability to have empathy for a young person shot down by an obvious racist pig. Murder is murder, no matter what a skewed law might say. Geez. No clue. Don't have to look up the meaning of the word. You David Duke types have been assailing people with your underhanded and what you think is slick racism for centuries and it is easy to see. Racism is very easy to see. Bigotry, prejudice, not so much, but your type of racism is obvious. You have a good life. I'm satisfied I understand people like you. I'm through here and with you.

[7962]

66. 100th time: I do NOT support zimmerman.

[heaven05]

95. +10000 time

yes you did,

[heaven05]

71. oh

Last edited Wed Jul 17, 2013, 12:14 PM - Edit history (1)

and by the way, a zimpig apologist/supporter is NOT making the world a better place. That's you slick. I repeat, NOT MAKING THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE! You're also right about my world being a sad place. When racist pigs can get away with murder and people like you and many others come to his defense under the guise of the observing the law,I remember lynching of black people was legal at one time in parts of this nation. Yes my world get's a little sadder everyday.Vitriol? You are right slick. White privilege and entitlement, either you are the personification of that or maybe like zimpig you long for it. Which is it. I don't expect an answer since you don't address straight forward queries.

[7962]

74. hey, at least youre calling me "slick" now

thats better than pig. I guess we're growing closer.
As I've said before, I think he SHOULD have to pay. And in many ways, he will. If he writes a book, nobody will buy it. What the hell could he say that hasnt been heard? He's just gonna be hiding out in a hole....

[heaven05]

44. figures

southern man agrees, who just happened to be a President of this nation at one time. A white man says stop to a young black male and that kid was supposed to stop at masters command? Right? Subject himself to some kind of detention, until the police arrive, and either end up going to jail on suspicion or be freed IF they let him go to his house and verify his RIGHT to be black in that neighborhood? You want every black person to stop at the command of the white man, right?

[handmade34]

54. not a chance...

what Jimmy Carter said will not (and should not) calm folks... (and I happen to be one of President Carter's bigger fans)

the outrage must continue until change is made

[onpatrol98]

91. Jimmy Carter as proof of a just trial against a black teenager...WTH???

http://washingtonexaminer.com/jimmy-carters-racist-campaign-of-1970/article/1070336

----snip---

Carter's top campaign staffers were spotted distributing grainy photographs of Sanders arm-in-arm celebrating with two black men. Sanders was a part-owner of the Atlanta Hawks, and in the photograph he was celebrating a victory with two players who were pouring champagne over his head. Carter's leaflet was intended to depress Sanders's white vote.

"The Carter campaign also produced a leaflet noting that Sanders had paid tribute to Martin Luther King, Jr."
Carter criticized Sanders, a former governor, for preventing Alabama Gov. and notorious segregationist George Wallace from speaking on Georgia state property. "I don't think it was right for Governor Sanders to try to please a group of ultra-liberals, particularly those in Washington, when it means stifling communication with another state," said Carter.
"'I have no trouble pitching for Wallace votes and black votes at the same time,' Carter told a reporter. Carter also said to another reporter, 'I can win this election without a single black vote.'"

Upon receiving the endorsement of former Democratic Gov. Lester Maddox, Carter responded by praising the life-long segregationist: "He has brought a standard of forthright expression and personal honesty to the governor's office, and I hope to live up to his standard." Maddox had not only refused to serve blacks in the restaurant he once owned, but he had also greeted civil rights protestors with a gun, and made sticks available to his white customers with which to intimidate them.

"The campaign paid for radio ads for a fringe black candidate, C.B. King, in an effort to siphon black votes away from Sanders."
"Then there was the radio commercial in which Carter said he would never be the tool of any 'block' vote, slurring over the word 'block' so that it could be mistaken for 'black.'

Carter won the Democratic nomination and the governorship -- unsurprisingly, with almost no black support. He famously did not carry the racism of his 1970 campaign into his governorship. That is laudable, but his campaign was not. Nor is it laudable for him today to attribute his own racial cynicism to others who have ample reasons for legitimate political disagreement with this president.

----snip---

[onpatrol98]

92. I never know with Carter...

I never know with Carter....

[heaven05]

97. you

never answered my question. If a white stranger commands a black child/teenager minding his own business to stop, that black teenage is supposed to stop at the white man's command, let himself be detained on "suspicion" of some wrongdoing by that white man and if this child/teenage resists he should allow said white man to shoot him, under fla law. Right? Just a question questioning your support of zimpig actions and the verdict releasing him from any responsibility of killing/murdering Travon. Just a question. Answer please.

[7962]

114. Absolutely NOT. And i dont recall seeing this question posed to me. All you said was:

When a white man says jump a black man should say how high?
I said early on he would be found not guilty because of the charges and the trial. i have never said Z was in the right, or did what he shouldve done, etc. And I also dont think the justice dept will press civil rights charges against him either. We'll see.

[heaven05]

119. justice

dept. won't do a goddamn thing. Period.

[7962]

122. I guess we finally agree on something. But dont forget my answer,

Absolutely NOT. NO ONE thats not a cop should have the right to stop or detain ANYONE of ANY race. Period. And even when they DO have a badge, thats getting worse and worse.
I bet thats the SECOND thing we agree on.

[heaven05]

123. yep

[heaven05]

124. DWB

Last edited Thu Jul 18, 2013, 09:48 AM - Edit history (1)

WWB, Born black and thus suspected of all types of wrongdoing in genteel amerikkkan culture and society. Because of the legacy of slavery that this country's citizens carry everyday we have an oil and water situation in conflicts concerning race. This case has done the good of shining a light and exposing the ugly racist side of amerikkkaa that this country WAS so trying to keep under wraps. Amerikkkan exceptionalism wears a white sheet with' hoodie' and shoots the heart out of young black men who have done nothing wrong. I just hope the citizens of this country will put slavery's legacy in a grave and let it stay buried. And I don't mean bodies with a bullets in their heart. I don't know if we as citizens will ever find the strength and character to be able to put racism where it belongs, in that grave along with all bigotry and prejudices.

[noiretextatique]

101. wtf

[ejpoeta]

32. i agree. it seems the prosecution agreed with the events that the defense put forth.

they didn't show WHY this was not a self defense case. i can't help but thinking on some level no one was really trying to convict this guy of anything. hearing about the jury instructions.... the only reason zimmerman was ever charged was because of the public outcry. he was put on trial. there. now are you all happy!! /sarcasm. it makes me sick, but there isn't anything anyone can really do about the zimmerman case itself. the only thing that can really be done is to change the law. People can bitch about people talking about the case . I think it's perfectly healthy. people will lament the case, and then they will move on to action about what led to the outcome. that is where we need to end up.

[heaven05]

102. No

Last edited Wed Jul 17, 2013, 06:54 PM - Edit history (1)

I think the division is because a lot of people on this site have an emotional vested interest in the racial entitlement and privilege status quo that all white people can take advantage of if they so choose. Oh we'll never know because the white people on this site and society at large that believe in their perceived right to entitlement and privilege would never admit to or say something like my prior statement... But I suspect white american feelings of entitlement are at work here, especially in this murder verdict, because while not being murderers themselves, a lot are willing to let a murderer go on some specious legal argument. Blacks are just trying to hold on to rights, right to vote, not be profiled, not be lynched, while whites I feel are trying to hold on to the right to do any damn thing they please under the guise of 'law' and to stifle dissent on that perceived entitlement. Just my small opinion.

[Swagman]

3. divide and rule

it works so often and I am very suspicious.

[zeemike]

17. I am suspicious too.

I see people here trying to divide us with "with us or against us" posts.
And in that game you can play ether side to divide people.

[7962]

33. My thoughts exactly. A lot here sound exactly like George Bush

"with us or against us"
There can be NO room for ANY disagreement!!!
Wait till '16 rolls around and the Hillary bashing/promoting begins!

[JustAnotherGen]

75. Well in the African American GROUP

At DU - it's fair to say - 'with us or against us'.

And I will clearly state - that even outside of the Zimmerman trial . . . the 'whispers in the corners' amongs African American members at DU have some interesting content.

And in that regards - if you stand back - and go back actually READ what bluetires posted in the AA Group as the OP for this thread in the AA Group - and REALIZE that it's not all about that fat assed punk Georgie - but about DU as a whole . . . on all sorts of issues -

You might realize that for awhile it's been pretty apparent that there is a faction at DU who have made clear to the AA members of DU that . . .

"Hey! You aren't like us. Sit down darkie and shut up. Don't you know white men get to impale your women as conquerors".

And if *up* those words offend and you don't have ANY clue what this is reference to (ho ho Cheerios - lots of folks at DU showed their asses) - then perhaps you were not the best person to weigh in on this thread.

[heaven05]

98. yeah

no statements from him on direct queries or statements concerning the undeniable truth of matters. Never answers why except that Trayvon brought on his own death by resisting massa.

[7962]

117. Since I never said any such thing, once again you fail

in your never ending quest to label me a racist.

[heaven05]

120. quest

nah. Mission, yeah. Accomplished? yeah. geez

[7962]

121. FAIL. Look in a dictionary for heavens sake.

Either that or look in a mirror for the real racist.

[JustAnotherGen]

149. No one is labeling you as a racist

But your outlook, words, belief system MIGHT be.
When confronted with a different reality of myself my parents gave me this life skill/approach -

Stop. Try it on. Ask - is there some truth to this? Why is this assessment being made of my morality? Generally - I've found that when an assessment of my morality and/or ethics in regards to humanity cause me 'discomfort and defensiveness' as a GUT reaction . . .


Well - sometimes like all ducks - I quack.


Stop - step back. Get quiet. Look at how your mind works. Then come back to this thread. Or - choose not to.

Are you a racist? I don't know. I don't care. You don't pay my way in this world and I'm not married to you and as long as you aren't shooting willy nilly for fun with gun at anyone in my family - then you are of zero concern in my life.

But - do you have racist beliefs that you do not intend to express that then get inflicted on America in general? That's the question to ask yourself.

And I'm of the belief - no one is without prejudice. NO ONE. So anyone who tells me they don't see 'color' or are 'color blind' or wants to run through a field daisies skipping and singing fa la la is a disingenuous liar.

[7962]

154. "Just", I didnt mean you were calling me a racist,

but the poster below you has been for days. Saying that, as well as saying i am a zimmerman supporter, that I think whites should tell blacks what to do, etc.
I agree with you, everyone has prejudice to some degree. Mater of fact, I posted that on another thread a few days ago. Mentioning that there is a difference between the two is what got the other guy calling me names. And nothing I have brought up suggests that I am a racist. Its just so easy for some to throw that around.
About the worst thing I said was when I suggested that he look into a mirror if he wanted to see the racist.
And believe me, from what I've seen here over the years, thats pretty tame!!

And your last sentence is spot on as well.

[JustAnotherGen]

155. I'm familiar with your posts

I think for example - if you think Trayvon should have ignored his gut - and submitted to George Zimmerman's inquiries - there may be something there.

If you think he was doing something wrong - there may be something there. IE There is absolutely no proof that he was casing homes, or was the burglar that had been doing the break ins. That was the only thing he could have been doing wrong.

If you have questioned the victims past behavior - that is very typical of all teenage boys - and attributed that to his death - there may be something there.

If you have no idea why the black community does NOT hate Zimmerman - there may be something there. IRL - discussions I hear the same thing I believe - he no longer matters. Should he be feared to the core? Absolutely. We have first hand knowledge that he can put a bullet in us - and get away with it. That is the ONLY way the pig vomit matters. Keeping an eye on him to make certain he is not anywhere near our children with a gun for the rest of his life.

And understand - I refer to Strom Thurmond, Bull Connor - the exact same way I do Zimmerman - Pig Vomit. Too wet to step on - and too low to kick. So - I'm not singling him out - I'm sharing my perception of his ilk in general.

And if that's racist to you - then maybe there is something there.

[7962]

160. No, I dont think any of those things about martin

If youve read my posts, you read my theory as to what happened. He should have had nothing more happen to him than a quick questioning from the cops, whowould have let him move on when they found his dad lived nearby.
And I have little use for the white racists. The klan is a joke. These are mostly uneducated people with little common sense.
I would hope you have similar disdain for the black racists as well?

[JustAnotherGen]

164. No - there are no black racists

And the Klan is an extremely powerless organization. They exist because they DO feel powerless.

Racism is a social construct. It's not a feeling or an emotion. Blacks are not 'running things' in America. Martin was NOT a racist.

And if it were my nephews - i would want them to fear Zimmerman . . . Because they have a reason to. Because in America - they will get a jury of Zimmerman's peers. If they survive the shot - they will still get a jury of Zimmerman's peers.


And he never would have been questioned by the police. If you believe that - I have some non flood zone property to sell you on the Raritan river. Racism in America says the black teenager would have been hauled into the station, charge with every single burglary - anything they could to make him a Felon, his record upon reaching adulthood is kept open (a felon is a felon right?), and he would have been denied the right to vote for the rest of his life.


^Up^ You know that to be true - if you deny it - you are either being a deliberate fool or deliberately ignorant of the world in which you live. NOT the one you WISH existed - but the one black men actually have to survive in. See - black males don't live in America - they survive here. Get with the game kid and stop with the Pollyanna.

[7962]

165. I know the world youre talking about

I have many friends who have dealt with it. You say youve read my posts, so you saw where I mentioned telling some dont give a cop an excuse. Because they will take advantage of it. And with white people too. They're worse now days than ever. I have a couple rental houses in a mostly black neighborhood and I have been pulled over for the non-existant traffic violation a few times. Had 3 cars eventually show up once. Had the dog "alert" to my car (bullshit). Had to stand there while they searched the car, etc. You know the drill. I was out of place in that area, so I MUST have been doing something wrong. There are plenty of white people who get railroaded too. I have an atty friend who represents some of them. Whites were lynched back in the old days, too. About a third the number of blacks that were. Read the Tuskeegee Institute study about it.
But to say there are no black racists, come on now. ? And I dont think Martin was one. A race doesnt have to be in charge to have racists in their midst. And in a lot of major cities, it is the blacks who are in power, not whites. Those who speak loudly about "white devils"? Or the Jews? And not just Farrakhan, he's the easy mark. If you read a statement and all you have to do is replace "white" with "black" and its racist, then it was racist to begin with. Read some of the speeches given by some of the black panthers, among others.
But the fact that we (you and i ) talk at all shows that things ARE different from 100 yrs ago. The election of Obama couldnt have happened without millions of white votes. Twice. Theres much work to do, but slowly things have changed. Peace to you today.

[JustAnotherGen]

166. Can I ask you a question

Will you allow the black American experience to be validated in and of itself without playing a tit for tat game?

Or can you ONLY understand it from the white male American experience?

It's okay if you do - because that's who you are at your core. But if you can 'voice' that and OWN THOSE words it would be much appreciated.

I read your several paragraphs - and the thing I kept fixating on was the black panthers. All five of them!

And if you are talking about the guy in Philadelphia - you are showing that you are:

A. An IndieTeapublican

and

B. Falling for the Faux News /Breitbart Schtick.

[7962]

167. I'm not sure I know who the "guy in Philly" IS?

And I DID say "etc" after mentioning the panthers. There are many others you can see if you want to.
But I get your point; and i do not want to appear to minimize the black experience in any way. The closest I can get to understanding it is this experience I had when i was younger. this will date me......
Back in the 80s I had what MAY be considered these days to have been a 'mullet". I was in a part time band, had the long hair in back. It wasnt THAT long though. I was in a small town bank to work on a machine for my job and the president of the bank, an old white guy, threw me out because i "didnt know when to get a haircut". He made a big scene of it. Humiliated me in front of his staff and the customers. i didnt want to lose my job so I pretty much said nothing. But I was furious/angry/depressed, etc. And as I drove home I thought, wow, that was a small taste of what a black person felt. But i could cut my hair. You cant change a skin color.

[1StrongBlackMan]

136. Interesting ...

You would talk of "divide us with "with us or against us" posts.

Self-reflection time ...

Go to the DU's search function ... enter your screen-name and "snowden", "NSA", "Authoritarian" or even &quot President) Obama".

The result might be eye opening.

[Number23]

139. Oh, that's the one that said that Bradley Manning was being treated worse than Civil Rights heroes

of the 1960's. There is no reasoning with anyone that ignorant of history, devoid of perspective, lacking in common sense, and that insensitive. Just walk away.

[1StrongBlackMan]

140. Shhhh ...

forced Self-reflection time!

But not doubt ... Ignore time.

[zeemike]

141. Well I have no idea what I am suposed to be looking for

So perhaps you can give me a clue...are you suggesting I said something like that?..or made a post that said it?

OK on reading back on this I see what you are inferring...that I was criticizing black people as trying to divide us....that is NOT what I was saying...I was saying that those who defend Zimmerman are playing that game...and that game can be played from ether end....and is being played from ether end.

Honestly I did not notice that this was the AA group...or perhaps I would have been more detailed in what I intended to say.

[1StrongBlackMan]

146. No ...

I'm not talking about what you have written in THIS post.

I don't, for one second believe , you "have no idea what your are suposed to be looking for ." I've read too many of your posts where you have shown proficient at connecting dots ... or have I given you too much credit?

But I agree "those who defend Zimmerman are playing that game ... and that game can be played from ether end ... and is being played from ether end." But I'm saying that the game is being played else where, too ... by some that are voicing "suspicion" that people are trying to divide us.

[zeemike]

147. Well I still don't know what you are talking about.

Perhaps you can provide a link to where you think I said something wrong and need to be chastised for.

And had I known this was a group I would not have posted here, or even read the OP...but I failed to notice it...
And the reason I don't do groups that have political agendas is just because of this...they tend to be us against them and will jump all over any outsider that posts anything they can claim shows that the them are out to get the us.

So pardon be for being here and I will pay more attention to it in the future.

[JustAnotherGen]

148. Really?

And had I known this was a group I would not have posted here, or even read the OP...but I failed to notice it...
And the reason I don't do groups that have political agendas is just because of this...they tend to be us against them and will jump all over any outsider that posts anything they can claim shows that the them are out to get the us.

So now being black is being painted as a political agenda in and of itself? Surely you jest.

And I'm sorry my friend - but the 'White Privilege Must Continue To Rule Class' are indeed out to get us. I do not believe for one minute that Alito, Rand Paul, Scalia, etc. etc. are not out to 'get us'.

And if you agree with that - you are welcome.

If you are going to huff and puff and defend them - I would suggest that DU in general is not for you.

[zeemike]

150. That is not what I said

Groups are on DU because they feel separate from the "them".
And that is contrary to my belief that there should be no difference at all based on race, gender or any other thing that divides us into groups...IMO.

And yours in the kind of post I try to avoid because this is what you get in groups....the us against them...
And if that seems like to you an intolerable opinion then take it up with Admin...
And if you find me offensive then ignore me.

[JustAnotherGen]

151. How is anything I wrote

Us or against them? Give me a specific example.

Now - am I mentally ill? Nope. There ARE differences. Anyone who has ever had their mom comb their hair on Sunday and braid/plait if - knows it for a fact!

I'm bi-racial. I need Moroccan oil for my hair. My 100% Calabrese of the plane from Italy husband does NOT.

My caucasian mother burns like crazy after 15 minutes in the sun - I do not.

Two examples. Why is that narrow or why does that offend you to have to read?

And that is contrary to my belief that there should be no difference at all based on race, gender or any other thing that divides us into groups...IMO.

I commend you for the Pollyanna-ish view of the world. But I'm afraid it's not the REAL world.

It also forgive me - sometimes doesn't allow us to speak and stand in our own truth.

What is this one race/one gender belief system? Whose voice is to be this welded together androgynous individual?

Tell me your feelings on Black History month or Women's History Month. Are those 'discriminatory' and 'us against them'?


And if you were really egregious - I think bluetires could have banned you from the group. See how NOT us against them OP of the thread is? If you were the 'them' - you could be banned from the group.


And stop with this I'm The Victim - I'm Offensive - Woe is me and alas nonsense. I'm not ignoring anyone who doesn't say the words "NSA" and "Snowden" every other word in every post they make at DU.

[zeemike]

152. I was not replying to you.

And this is why I avoid any group posts...you only set yourself for this kind of reply...and I apologize for posting in this thread at all...Next time I will check where it came from before posting....No groups for me thank you, unless it is about gardening or something like that.

[Number23]

156. Your posts are so ignorant. There are many white people that post in this forum

that are welcome and embraced with open arms.

However, most of us here are familiar enough with the ignorance you've spewed all over this web site. And just as you obviously feel so uncomfortable posting in the African American forum, we are equally uncomfortable having you here.

Would be great for everyone involved, I think, if you didn't come into this forum again.

[zeemike]

157. Well you can count on it

And I don't have any desire to talk to people that say those kind of things to me....and I know for a fact that it does not represent the African American people to say such insulting things.

[Number23]

158. You tell yourself whatever you need to in order to make yourself feel better

Just make sure that you do it OUTSIDE of this forum.

[zeemike]

161. Yep esculate the hostility...n/t

[Number23]

162. You have made your bed, now lie in it. For the last time, please stay out of this forum.

[1StrongBlackMan]

163. You know for a "fact"? ...

Do tell.

[1StrongBlackMan]

159. You continue to …

Want to make this about the divisions that appeared around the Zimmerman trial, or the divisions in sib-groups … even after I clarified that my comment is NOT about either. That could be telling; but I, again, will give you the benefit of a doubt.

My point, to be clear and explicit, is that you are “suspicious” of Zimmerman supporters as troll and, more so, divisive … fine, I pretty much agree.
But you fail to see that your disproportionate criticisms of this Democratic President and his policies (i.e., everything this President does is bad, all the time, and if not bad … suspect), on a site named DemocraticUnderground, is equally as divisive. Some balance would make you less “suspect”, as I would hope that you would see some Democratic principles in this Democratic President.

Your support of threads that claim that the two parties are effectively the same … thanks to those corporatist, third-way Democrats; along with your tacit support for not voting down the Democratic party line … is equally divisive. Some recognition, and rejection, of this “purist” and failed/failing electoral strategy, would make you less “suspect”, as the end goal for Democrats is to support and vote into office Democratic candidates.

And, your piling onto threads that has anyone questioning what we really know about the NSA mess; questioning snowden or greenwald’s credibility and/or motives, as authoritarian or corporatist lackeys, placing partisanship before privacy concerns, or just not “real” Democrats … you seem to fail to recognize that this is equally as divisive. Some recognition that we do not know exactly what is going on with this NSA mess, nor are people wrong to question snowden or greenwald’s credibility/motives; but more importantly, doing either does not make someone not a Democrat, nor an authoritarian lackey … that recognition would make you less “suspect”, as Democrats do not attack Democrats.

[southernyankeebelle]

8. There isn't empthy anymore. If I had been on that jury I would have put myself in

Trayvon's sneakers and think how a 16 yr old would have reacted. The jury didn't do that. Sadly Trayvon didn't get the justice we all were wishing for his family. Am white and I just don't understand people don't take the time to step back and put yourself in the shoes of a black person. You might feel totally different if you did. This country is going backward and I feel sorry for parents that have young black men because they go out to work or school in the morning and you pray to god nothing happens to them. That is no way for families to live. White america has to have a change of heart. We wouldn't like that going on in our families. In my opinion Zimmerman got a way with murder, period.

[Blue_Tires]

12. THAT is the point I was trying to find

Empathy and compassion have definitely been lacking as of late...

[southernyankeebelle]

18. Yes I think that was a wonderful legacy my father and mother thought me. I try to see

each person as a individual and put myself in the other person's shoes. You be surprised how you see things differently. I find the only thing different between races is the tone of our skin. We are no better than anyone else. If people would teach their children this then this country will truly become an exceptional country. We voted for a black president and I thought it would get better. He truly is the right person for this period of history. But the meanness of some whites on the right makes it difficult for ALL of us. I think the president will go down in history as a great president. He is well like by many. Yes even by many whites like myself who voted for him and want only the best for him and his family. He cares what happens for all of us.

[JustAnotherGen]

78. +1

And a complete inability to see black Americans as living breathing human beings. Seems like not all of our fellow members view us as self-actualized human beings.

[ceonupe]

13. Same problem the state atty and juruy had

Last edited Wed Jul 17, 2013, 12:08 PM - Edit history (2)

The truth is 90%+ members of DU will never know what it's like to be a black youth in a society that thinks your are evil by default.

More importantly they will never even understand the power of institutional racism. Part of this is because they don't want to consider that the collective liberal left has spent little less than a few cent on solving issues like race.

Heck lots of DU supports Bloomberg because he funds the anti gun movement. But no one calls him out for his racists police policies that he 100% support that give licence to the thought process GZ had the night TM was killed. Bloomberg directly said the NYPD needs to stop and frisk more black kids and less white kids.

I have learned in my short stay here on DU one thing. Support the liberal cause at all cost even if the liberal cause is supported by a racist man who belives because of your skin color you must be up to no good.

It's very easy for a college educated white person (majority of DU I'm assuming) to be totally blind to the plight of many African Americans in our country. Especially lower income African Americans.

For a frame of reference just last week I was late to a monthly lunch with some business friends. The reason I was late was for a no ticket no violation police stop, the reason for the stop was my rear turn signal not that it was not working but it was flashing at a rapid pace (kid you not) police ran everything and even a K-9 unit pulled up. Officer let me go without even a warning . The worse thing was while the original officer was mixed race the k9 cop that came was black. They said the backup cop was just there incase they need assistance.

Everyone at the lunch was surprised except the 2 other black men in our group.

[Inkfreak]

28. I think you're a 100% right and no I never will understand your experience. n/t

[7962]

37. Boom! There ya go. I know I've told many of my friends when it comes to cops,

THEY have the badge and the gun. WEAR your seatbelt, use turn signals, etc. Dont give them a reason to pull you over. Sure they can make up a reason, thats happened to me before and I'm not black. But dont help them out and GIVE them a reason. And a surprising number of blacks that I know think that if you ask a person if they are a cop, the law says they have to tell you. I've screamed from the rooftops that its not true! But some still think so.
And they can say the dog "alerted" to your vehicle even if you dont notice the dog do ANYTHING unusual. I bet you were very polite and cooperative with them or they wouldve done that to you. ARRGH!

[heaven05]

45. you

are full of it. White man says jump, that black better ask, how high master? right?

[7962]

63. So what I just posted is wrong info? No. You're not even making any sense now.

Its never happened to you? Or anyone you know? Thats how the damn cops operate. I've seen it countless times.
Dont know why you have to be so combative. But maybe that helps you get through the day.

[heaven05]

65. yeah

yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. I just don't believe a SYG zimpig supporter/apologist. You.

[7962]

69. carry on.........

Again, everything I've posted is true, but you only like to call me names. Whatever. Enjoy!

[ceonupe]

94. belive it or not

once he took my ccw card and ran a deeper check thats when it all changed but i wonder cause when they ran my tags the auto get an alert i have ccw and i told them at start of the stop.

I really believe without the ccw i would have gotten the full dog treatment missed my lunch and honestly would have been even more mad.

strange world for some people but to me this is the world i have lived in my whole life and have been very aware of since about 9 years old.

[7962]

113. And that sux. So whats your thoughts on the whole CCW thing?

Why did it make a difference? Do you think that by having it, the cop thinks "well this guy must be ok, he's gone through some work to get that", or something else?
And thanks for reading my post for what it was and not instantly calling me a racist like the other dude who apparently has made it his job to call me everything but a child of God.

[ceonupe]

115. I think it's because of the extra steps

Last edited Wed Jul 17, 2013, 06:15 PM - Edit history (2)

You must go thru to get one. The relative scarcity of people my demographic with them.

I have have had my ccw since 2005.

I also believe it may have had a little todo with the cars I drive. The last stop happened in my Mercedes GL550. Tempted to get a NRA sticker to see if that works to keep the police away lol.

[7962]

118. Now THAT would be something! Their head may explode.

[heaven05]

105. don't

forget, during the reign of apartheid in s. africa, a lot of the "authorities' doing a lot of the on the site killing were blacks suppressing blacks in those "townships under the guise of the law.... Same principle at work here. Pay and perceived authority over others is a potent mix for weak people upholding the law. Especially weak people like the murderer zimpig.. Always will be there doing their masters bidding. Not to put down police authorities who are there to 'protect and serve' the citizenry. I seem to have good ones.

[enough]

15. Huge changes here since the beginning.

I think at first, and for a long time, DU was united in rage at Bush. It meant that most people essentially believed that we were all on the same side, even if we disagreed on some issues. Things have gotten a lot more complicated since then, and people have stopped trusting others. The gun issue also has become a flash-point.

In general I am amazed daily at the intensity of conflict here these days. I assume it reflects society at large.

[Blue_Tires]

26. Agreed

that plus the "jury system" and mods who don't immediately ban trolls outright anymore have made the pool very, very murky

[Orrex]

16. Most of all I feel bad for poor Georgie

His heart was in the right place, you know.

[alsame]

19. In some posts, there seems to be a lack

of moral outrage over the shooting, the trial and the verdict. These posts tend to justify the verdict based on FL law and the jury instructions. Fair enough, the law and instructions were definitely a problem.

But even if you are strongly pro-gun, self defense, SYG, etc., you should not be okay with American teenagers being gunned down in the street because of someone's racist paranoia.

[Blue_Tires]

24. And not just that,

if people seriously think the jury got it right based on what both sides presented, fine...But when I see some longtime names gloating, making up bullshit after-the-fact talking points and celebrating harder than O'Mara, I've got to pause and re-check which site I'm on...

[Soundman]

52. Dear Blue_Tires

I am one of those who believes the jury got it right. I also think it was tragic. I believe one of the things that has contributed to the division as of late has been the 2nd amendment arguments this past year or so. I think that many at du never really expected that there are so many gun toting, gun loving democrats out there (oddly enough I am NOT one of them).

I have been a follower since the beginning, and the thing I have noticed over time is the militant far left types have practically taken over here. Seems anyone to the right of Marx is an (insert derogatory hurtful adjective here).

When it came to the Martin case, I believe that many people heard gated community and assumed white people. I don't know why, but I can't seem to get my head around why people assume minorities don't live in gated communities too? In case you didn't know it, minorities make up 30% of the community where Zimmerman lived. Zimmerman had black people from the community testify on his behalf. Zimmerman is a democrat. That stuff doesn't make him innocent but I believe many have never been able to take an objective look at the case and were forced to take sides in a carefully crafted made for tv media event.

Tragic shit happens every day. Life sucks, and then you die. I mentioned in a post yesterday a 16 year old kid was gunned down Monday here in Columbus, not one mention anywhere, kinda like he never even existed. I will never know why Travon Martin was so much more important than he.

Of course racism is alive and well out there, if you feel like you haven't had your daily dose of piss me the fuck off, spend a few moments visiting the rants and raves section of the Columbus Craig's list. It really gives an indication of how far we haven't come. Imagine going out and canvassing for Obama in that cesspool, it was very eye opening.

The part that sickens me the most about the trial is that I came down on the same side of a case as the scum of the earth. The funny thing is, (well not funny at all), the odd thing is. Those racist scum bags would never accept Zimmerman into their little group in a million years. He was just a useful tool. It is still a very fucking ugly place out there and only time will solve it. Eventually they will die off and over time common sense will prevail. Until then we should all beware, and be aware.

Have a good day.

[ieoeja]

80. We don't think you are racist because you thought the jury was technically correct within the law.

You betray yourself as a troll with just about every other thing you write.

"I think that many at du never really expected that there are so many gun toting, gun loving democrats out there," says a guy who then pretends not to be pro-gun right despite having just written an oft repeated pro-gun meme.

And "militant far left types," is as Rightist as Rightist gets.

"Zimmerman had black people from the community testify on his behalf." Seriously? Zimmerman had Black friends? You actually went there and expect us not to think you're a racist fuck?

"a 16 year old kid was gunned down Monday here in Columbus, not one mention anywhere" You can not understand the reason we are less outraged by some routine murder than by a racially motivated murder covered up by probably racially motivated cops and celebrated by racists nationwide. No hint of racism there.

[ieoeja]

109. And the hits just keep on coming....

"I just realized the post I responded to is in the A.A. Group. So I probably should not have bothered posting."

Why should you have not posted in the A.A. Group?


I don't doubt that you are a Democrat. I grew up on a farm in the Bible Belt. I know lots of racist, ultra Rightwing Democrats. But they know that Democrats protect their working class asses just as much we do that of those other people.

[Soundman]

116. What I meant was

I don't understand groups all that well. I was arguing back and forth one day with some one in the feminists group. At the time I didn't realize that the post I was responding too was a feminist group post. Afterwords I realized that, and I felt bad about it. That is what I was trying to say. I don't think it is a a good idea to start arguing with somebody in the AA group about an obviously sensitive issue. Hopefully that comes across clear. As I said I feel rightly or wrongly I feel GD is fair game. Group discussion forums not so much. I have company so I have to go. I hope you took no offense to my previous post, I can see how I worded in such a way that could have come across that way.

[libodem]

126. The GZ jury got it wrong

And I was on your jury and got it wrong, too. Wish I had read closer.

[Blue_Tires]

83. I've followed every aspect of the case from day one as well

And I'll never believe the jury got it right (especially after reading those WTF comments from B37)...I don't CARE how many supposed black friends Zim has or had, he STILL racially profiled Martin that night -- It's all right on the 911 call...(HINT: Anyone of any ethnicity can stereotypically profile anyone of any ethnicity, even their own)

Which part of the case have I not viewed objectively, compared to the gun nutters who continually slandered a dead teenagers reputation in an effort to protect one of their own? (And despite what a few gungeoneers who don't know me might think, I'm NOT a so-called "gun-grabber"...My enemy is the NRA and anyone else who continually tries to defend the paranoids, nuts and psychopaths when they blow a fuse)

And please spare me the "people die every day" fatalism which needlessly cheapens everything...Just because it's something that doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it can't matter to anyone else...

[JustAnotherGen]

132. Thanks for writing this

And please spare me the "people die every day" fatalism which needlessly cheapens everything...Just because it's something that doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it can't matter to anyone else...

I'm also a bit disturbed by the constant 'reminders' about black on black crime. I just want to ask ONE of those people what they are doing in the black community to help people rise. It would be pointless. They are doing nothing but secretly giggle in glee that black youths kill black youths.

[1StrongBlackMan]

135. No …

I don’t think many posting that Black on Black non-sequitor to DU are “giggling with glee; but I certainly it is a foundational pillar of their unacknowledged self-superiority. Why else would it appear in any discussion … without immediately acknowledging that same race violence constitutes the vast majority of violence?

[A Simple Game]

34. So I'm not the only one to notice the loss of posters on DU. Sadly what was once a nice

liberal site has, just like the Democratic Party, drifted quite a ways to the right. Many did so to follow President Obama and see no problem with compromising their principles although I think many didn't have any of their own to begin with. Many liberal posters have left DU or at best have quit actively posting.

[disillusioned73]

85. same here

I'm one of those - I just come back here on occasions like these (the Zimmermen trial) to just read what's what on the left (or what is left of it).. but keep my commenting to a minimum cause of the rightward drift..

[Viva_La_Revolution]

128. I rarely post anymore

DU has become mainstream, it's no longer anywhere near 'left' or 'underground'.

[Sand Wind]

35. I think It's great to debate about this,

And you know that if everybody think the same way, things will be without debate.

Also, I don't have the feeling that anybody here was really taking the side of the killer, they just try to take the juror point of view.

I think that everybody here have some nausea about the result.

We all know the racism root was implicate in some degree, and we all know that if it was a black who killed a white, the black whould have no luck in face of a jury. I think this is a bigger problem : to incriminate innocent black.

Human justice is always imperfect.

[Blue_Tires]

40. A WHOLE lot of DUers were openly on Zim's side from the start

and I'm not just talking about DUers in the gungeon, either...

I have 'em all on ignore, but you'll easily find plenty in GD...

[heaven05]

46. [phone]

a couple of the longtime zimpig supporters have graced us with their presence today.

[Sand Wind]

50. can you show me some participants who celebrate the result ? Nt

[heaven05]

51. you

can go to youtube if you are serious about this query.

[Sand Wind]

53. Yes I can go to YouTube, but will I know if they're DU participant ?

[Sand Wind]

55. And please don't make a reply title who make the impression that I'm one of them

And yes I'm serious.

[heaven05]

58. With

you, I was not implying anything. I did not intend to offend you.

[noiretextatique]

173. if you wanted to see it, you would see it

instead of asking other people to do your work for you. and that is a fitting metaphor for the subject of the OP.

[Sand Wind]

67. Can you show me some DU participant who are celebrating the result ? Nt

[dembotoz]

36. the dem party has gone big tent which means more inclusive, which means more centrist, which means

Hell I don't know
here I am at the local level getting candidates whom the party deems electable who I think are republican light at best.
And I am supposed to work for these clowns.

and I think at times du reflects the big tent thing

sometimes I envy those damn teabaggers-cause if they don't toe the party line they get primaried.
they are vile and disgusting and I hate them but their tent is small and cozy

[heaven05]

60. +1000

[carolinayellowdog]

47. not "getting it" is far milder than what you're seeing-- it's sadistic authoritarianism

There's a common theme in this and earlier divisive topics-- some always side with the state against the individual, the powerful against the powerless, kiss up and kick down. Cheering on chained CPI out of loyalty to government, cruelly indifferent to the suffering it would entail for millions. Cheering on the "catch, punish, kill the traitor" bloodlust against Snowden out of a very perverse version of patriotism. And now excusing murder as legal, because the state is always right and the powerless individual always wrong.

The "Trayvon was motivated by homophobia" stuff is the absolute worst of all of it I've seen yet. That's not gutter tactics but straight from the depths of hell, trying to manipulate one minority into hostility/indifference to another.

[NoMoreWarNow]

49. Yes, and I don't get it why so many here are not more upset by the NSA too

and would rather spend their time trashing Snowden

[JustAnotherGen]

86. I know I'm not one of those people

I just trash NSA and Snowden threads outright.

It's not part of my day to day experience - I'm more worried about my 17 year old and 20 year old African American male nephews than I am Snowden.

Sorry - blood is thicker than water and family always comes above all and first. It's just the way it is.

[NoMoreWarNow]

129. understandable

but if the NSA issue doesn't resonate, hopefully you can see why others are upset and don't just act like the spying is no big deal and Snowden is only hurting Obama.

[JustAnotherGen]

133. What doesn't resonate with me

Is a sneaky attempt to drive this issue into the issue of race/prejudice/bigotry discussion as it impacts black Americans.

I will be hoest. . .

I do care MORE about the millions of black men in this country imprisoned in their SKIN COLOR in THIS country than I do Snowden. He's got folks who've got HIS back -

I've got flesh and blood whose backs I've got to watch. So others go take care of Snowden - I'll go take care of my own.

Which is what this thread is about.

[NoMoreWarNow]

134. sure, I understand... I've been arguing with people on Facebook about Trayvon

and the lack of understanding of racism is astounding. It's really sad.

[Blue_Tires]

90. I've avoided most of those threads...

The sad part is I've got a couple of "big picture" theories I've wanted to explore (something this site used to be very very good at), but clearly neither side is trying to hear the other on that topic...

[NoMoreWarNow]

130. try me out-- I really have not seen much good, deep analysis on the topic

[JI7]

144. because most of the stuff is conspiracy theory type crap

and it's mostly turned into a joke.

as for the issue of surveillance. the problem in minority communities has usually been some local racists and it was usually the feds who had to come in to enforce rights.

for most minorities the problem are people like zimmerman . some wannabe self appointed jackass looking out for suspicious types.

plus many of the arguments sound very right wing and similar to the stuff gun nuts and libertarian types use.

[sybylla]

57. Seems to me we've always had a "don't get it" streak here.

Maybe long ago that streak was smaller. Never seemed like it, though. Especially during primary season. I've been part of DU since 2001 (lurked for about a year first), but there has always been body of members who are intent on being contrarians at the very least and struggle with the big picture at most.

I can see that with the loss of so many of the more vocal DUers who do get it to balance out the "don't get it" crowd, the latter may have become a more significant percentage. Unfortunately, I don't spend a lot of time here any more myself. I suppose it's partly for that reason. Not enough time in the day (or even in my life) to waste it playing whack an idiot. I check in to see what the late-breaking news is, scan the top posts and head off to try to make the world a better place.

Which you truly cannot do with your nose stuck to a computer screen.

[Blue_Tires]

88. That's another aspect I forgot to mention...

I've been here since '03, and even when we lost good, dedicated members (had good topics, research, analysis, kept their discussions on track, etc.) for whatever reason, new members always stepped up to prominence to take their place...

But even back in '07, I noted that slowly but surely our "replacement rate" was starting to drop ever so slightly, and that gap has done nothing but widen, especially when the site "moved"

I've been planning to get out as well, since 10 years is long enough for anyone, and so, so many friends and DUers I've met IRL have long since been gone...I just wanted to tie up some loose ends and get whatever tiny piece of closure I could from the Martin case aftermath...

I do hope the remaining 'senior' posters here and the admins will do some soul-searching on what they think this site should be, and the future direction it should go...

[sulphurdunn]

73. I've read that under Florida law

one initiating a physical confrontation may not claim self-defense for the outcome. It has also been mentioned that the judge did not allow that to be part of the jury instructions. If that is true, then the outcome of the case may well have been decided by those instructions.

[noiretextatique]

100. speaking of not getting it...check out this post PLEASE!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023280832

and please comment. perhaps it's just me, but is this poster arguing that some African-Americans should be "replaced" by Africans because some people feel more comfortable with Africans...culturally?

[noiretextatique]

103. i am not shocked...some democrats are racists

and there are some racists here. we know who they are because they are vocal and have been spouting their racist crap here for years. the is one in particular who i'm just done with since he pmed me admitting he was a racist asshole. of course, the good germans of DU refuse to ban him.

[JustAnotherGen]

127. +1

[Warpy]

108. I think the site has attracted a lot of recovering Republicans

and formerly apathetic, apolitical types who really never thought much about this stuff except to see how many black kids in hoodies were getting busted on "Cops." It made them think most bad guys were black kids in hoodies and that's a lie and a crying shame.

When we answer such people, we have a chance to make them think. They've already managed to decide the Republicans aren't worth voting for and that they'd better wake up and smell the political coffee. Maybe they just need a little help to smell what else has been cooking.

So answer them, be polite, and hope the lights go on.

[kestrel91316]

110. Well, we DO have a couple of high post count DUers who are clearly RWers and have skated under the

radar for years............and they take the typical RW view of Zimmy.

And we have newer DUers who are obvious trolls, too.

[Apophis]

125. Yep.

I was just thinking the same thing.

[brer cat]

131. I agree that DU has changed greatly, Blue_Tires.

DU has moved from discussion and sharing points of view to "my way or the highway" with zero tolerance for even a slightly different perspective. There are way too many threads that are nothing but shouting matches. Where DU was once an environment where we could learn from one another, it is now more of a forum to showcase the poster's pov. The littering of DU with endless threads on the same subject is illustrative of that. Have you noticed that some OPs attempt to shut down discussion by telling anyone posting a different pov to start their own thread? Unbelievable.

I think the reasons for the change are probably numerous, but one is the increase in our membership. In the early days (when I was a lurker), DU seemed to be more of a virtual family where there were quarrels, and a few crazy uncles and aunts in the attic, but for the most part we got to know each other and were tolerant if not respectful of other opinions. Now we have a lot of "strangers" among us, and that may be causing a lot of the hostility.

As to the issues with Zimmerman, the sin and root of Z's guilt, was the initial profiling of Trayvon. Nothing that happened after that could mitigate his guilt. Even if he had stayed in his car and let the police come to handle the "situation" that existed only in his mind, we should still be outraged. Why DU strays from that is beyond my understanding. I wish we spent much less time discussing whether it was legal for Z to stalk this young man and more time discussing what we can do to get that big target off the backs of our black citizens. We have no chance to change our legal system until we agree on the moral issues. And I am afraid that we will not even discuss the pertinent issues if we ignore or dispute that racial profiling is the norm, much less if we excuse such behavior because it is legal.

I hope that you can stay on DU, Blue. You have raised points that we all need to ponder if DU is to remain a dynamic forum. I seldom post and try to avoid the most contentious threads, but you have made me realize that I am as guilty by my silence as the originators of racists posts. If you can't see your way to remain, I wish you godspeed and a soft landing in a new forum.

[JI7]

145. these days , not at all

there are a few who have especially been very active in the zimmerman threads that i know are right wing trolls. there was one i called out and he claimed to have been a lurker for years . ok, so you are going to lurk for years and when you finally decide to sign up and post it's to defend zimmerman ???????

and then there are some who view bringing up race as defending Obama and i guess they can't have that. but still these people can't even put aside Obama to address the specific issue being discussed in itself. you don't HAVE to bring him up. but maybe it's because it exposes something in themselves ?

[LiberalAndProud]

153. Blue_Tires, please stay. Please speak.

If so many of us are blind to our own racism or fail to recognize what we are seeing, someone must remain to speak against it. While we cannot hope to change hardcore racists, we can educate the ignorant.

There are a *lot* less here than there used to be. That is not a good thing.

[Blue_Tires]

175. Thanks for the kind words

but 10 years is long enough for anyone's online voice to get stale (including mine); plus there have been some other things going on in my life...

But we'll see...Maybe I'll still be able to check in from time to time....