African-American Group Family Chat time ...

[1StrongBlackMan]

This will likely get me branded, even more of an authoritarian lackey.

I am a mentor to a young (23 year old), African-American, male on my job (this is his first professional job out of Grad School). He called to meet him for lunch ... he was clearly, really, upset.

When we met, I asked him what was going on. He told me that his boss had directed him to perform a specific task that was clearly within the job scope of my mentee, and she told him (for a third time), "I want you to do 'this task, this way'."

My response was, "Okay. So what's the problem?"

The mentee said, "It's a problem because she doesn't know what she is doing. There is a better way to do it!"

My response: "Well ... Have you shared with her your better ideas?"

Mentee: "Yeah. But, she's not hearing it. She's stuck in the 'old way' of doing things!" (This is how I found out that his leadership had directed him 3 times)

My response: "Was she clear in what she wants you to do and how she wants you to do it?"

Mentee: "Yeah."

My response: "Is doing it her way illegal, immoral, or unethical?"

Mentee: No. But, it's a waste of my time!"

My response: Maybe ... but, that's not your call. So ... I'm going to give you 3 questions to answer to yourself ... 1) Are you able to do the job the way she wants it done? 2) Do you want to do it the way she wants it done? 3) Can you live with yourself, if you do the job the way she wants you to do it?"

"I don't want to hear your answers; because, bottom-line, if the answer to any of those questions is 'No' ... then, you should start planning your exit strategy. Your boss is not going to change her mind, her direction is clear; and, she damned sure isn't going to be changed by an 8 month employee, bucking her."

"This is not career fatal ... unless you choose to continue bucking and don't exercise you exit strategy."

"Lastly, in the big picture, how important is this battle? Is doing stuff your way, important enough a hill to die on? She is telling you that she does not what to hear your way of doing things, unless, or until, you show her that you can do what she wants, the way she wants it. Every time you buck her, even if you prove yourself correct, you are turning up the heat on the next battle."

"And, know, no matter how many battles you win ... if she keeps her job, this is a war you cannot win."

My mentee wasn't happy; but, had calmed down enough to go back to work.

{Okay ... You can call me all sorts of authoritarian lackeys, now ... grooming the next generation to be just another cog.}

[M0rpheus]

1. Damned Authoritarian lackeys making... Sense.

Before I left my mindless corporate job, I ended up mentoring a lot of people, because it made my life easier.

The young ones don't understand the game, yet. Telling her to cool her jets, was the least you could do. There's always time for "a better way" once you have "THE WAY"™ down.

You can't get to the top, if you keep falling down on the first step.

[gwheezie]

2. Sound advice

I'm an old nurse and mentor the new ones frequently they do know the theoretical way of doing it better but don't have the experience of practical application. What I have suggested to them is to volunteer on projects where they can be a change agent without going to battle against a boss.

[Gothmog]

3. Great advice

[wildeyed]

4. Wait, your mentee works for me?

What was the chance of that

I so love it when 20-somethings who have never worked in my industry before want to tell me all about how to do my job Generally, I am not going to do it their "new and improved" way because if it fails, I do not trust them to clean up the mess. It is going to be on me to do that. So they do it my way until I trust them enough and IF the idea is sound.

He is talking about a waste of his time, but does he realize that his arguing is wasting his boss's much more valuable time? Why does he think he is entitled to waste her time? She is the boss, after all. It is a boss's prerogative to waste employee time.

There might also be a male privilege thing going on. Is he challenging his boss so vigorously because, at least in part, she is a she? This bears examination, because if he is jamming her because he thinks it is his right as a man to do so, she knows too and will make him pay. My own sad experience is if you don't, it will get worse. Not saying this is the case, but it bears examination.

You gave him good advice.

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. I really don't think it was a male/female thing; but, I certainly will raise the topic with him ...

because, even if it was not even on his mind ... he will pay.

I think it's just one of those, "I'm young and just out of grad school, so I know more than you" thing, as I have seen him relate to other employees, male and female ... he became my mentee after I had to pull him aside, after a meeting, to tell him, "you seem to be arguing, just for the seek of arguing. Stop being a prick!"

[Ellen Forradalom]

32. I'm an older woman who works in tech

and has to listen to these young bucks all day long. I have my quiet ways of working around them.

[wildeyed]

35. It is a good thing for men in business to be aware of,

even if they, themselves are not guilty of the transgression. It is well documented that men talk more than women, talk over women and trust women's opinions less in work situations. Just being aware of the problem and occasionally running interference for the women in his workplace will potentially net serious rewards down the line. Ask my number two guy at my business. He will get a significant salary bump at his next review and possibly small ownership stake as a bonus

If your mentee is only 23 and already done with grad school, chances are he is also VERY bright, probably gifted level IQ. My younger kidlet is like that, ridiculously smart, highly verbal, impatient, sensitive to criticism and wants to argue ALL the time. It helped me to understand why he is like that. He is not just an a-hole, although he acts like one. He is just intense but socially inept. The trick is to keep the intensity and creativity but lose the attitude. Or he could be like me and start his own business. I don't like authority either

He is lucky to have you looking out for him.

[SusanCalvin]

5. In the real world, you are of course exactly right. nt

[Number23]

6. Your mentee has to pay his dues like everyone else. When he gets a bit more established he can be

as forward-thinking and innovative as he likes. Of course, being forward thinking and innovative when you're black scares a hell of alot more folks, especially white folks, than it impresses so he'll have to deal with all of that too.

[1StrongBlackMan]

11. That was another conversation we had ...

when he told me that I didn't understand the new era, all people appreciate good ideas. I responded: "Okay. I'm giving you information. It is now your little red wagon, to push, pull or throw over the cliff; but, you know what? When it comes, it will come quickly, and there will be no backing up." And suggested that he sit back and watch the dynamics of his next team meeting.

He came back the next week, and told me with amazement, how the whatever the three white males, and the senior white female, said was immediately credible, even after it had been ignored (or even discredited) when offered up by one of the Latina(o)s, or more junior white females.

He is a fairly quick, though arrogant, study.

[Number23]

12. Yep, that sounds about right.

whatever the three white males, and the senior white female, said was immediately credible, even after it had been ignored (or even discredited) when offered up by one of the Latina(o)s, or more junior white females.

Yep.

[SusanCalvin]

15. Glad you got him to notice that. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

7. I think you did the right thing

I have to say though - I show how I "did a task/project) , make sure they understand the end goal - then tell them to make it theirs.

I'm less focused on how and more focused on - end result.

His Manager should express to him what her "stakes" are. My team knows - Defend The Revenue.

She might be saying - Do this. . . But he's not getting what makes her tick and how she manages up.

[Kind of Blue]

8. I'm going to send this to one of my younger sisters.

The other day we were on our way somewhere and she asked me what I thought of the latest book I'm reading. I said it's good but I wish the author would get to the point, his writing has always been too florid for me.

She says, for the upteenth time, whenever writing is brought up, "That was what my English professors used to tell me about my writing and I always got average grades though they said that I'm a good writer."

I asked her again if she ever followed their instructions. "No, I know that I can write! I can't write any other way!" But she won't get the point of that period in time but will forever complain about the less than stellar grades in a subject she loves.

Reminds me a lot of some who come to this group asking but not really wanting to know.

[Number23]

14. Some people call what you're talking about an "age" thing when it's really a "maturity" thing

I've dealt with people who think that they know everything when in actuality they know NOTHING. They are like teenagers in business suits and the entire world knows how hard it is dealing with teenagers. And it doesn't have much to do with age it has far more to do with maturity.

And they are the hardest people to deal with because like you said, they aren't willing to learn or to listen. Again, like teenagers they possess the world's worst combination --of ignorance and ARROGANCE. You can be arrogant but if you've got something to back it up you may get a bit of a pass. You can be ignorant but if you're sweet as pie, you may get a pass. But to be ignorant AND arrogant?? Lord help everyone who passes your way.

[Kind of Blue]

19. Yeah, learning how to listen is a skill in itself

And as you said, it's the willingness to do so. I guess, hopefully way before the end, it's the heart that informs on how much of the ignorance and arrogance one can take. So I struck out on my own, it has not been a day at the beach either, but I've never looked back. The politics of ignorance and arrogance that a lot of people thrive on was too much to bear.

[Number23]

30. "So I struck out on my own" I am in awe!

But if anyone has the intelligence and fortitude to do so, it's you.

I have nothing but respect for people who go into business themselves. I don't have the patience/spirit/vision to do it.

[Kind of Blue]

34. Aww, Number23. You have the coolest gift of

making people feel special for things taken for granted. And I thank you

I don't have the patience/spirit/vision to do it. I have no doubt that you certainly do have patience, spirit and vision within your field. There's no way, IMHO, one could hack it when our ethnicity and gender are constantly in play. Plus, I've read some of the things you've told co-workers

I just hope that 1SBM's mentee takes his advice while knowing how special he is. There's just so much to learn, Especially from people one can't stand and vice versa. They've been my teachers, too

[SusanCalvin]

39. Same here.

I've always called myself a "natural-born employee." Although once I'm drawing retirement, I might get brave and try something small, just for fun. But I'm lacking in the big vision department, and I know it.

[Quayblue]

10. I wish I'd had someone give me the same advice.

I pride myself on being innovative, but a lot of times I should have kept my mouth shut.

My father eventually told me to just be quiet for about a year and learn the ropes and the people...then come out with suggestions and volunteer leadership in areas I have strength in.

It's done me well lately. The workplace is political and we have to learn how to navigate if we want to succeed. That's just the reality of it.

[Number23]

13. The workplace is political and it is a minefield if you are a smart, innovative person with MELANIN

I don't give a damn how "liberal and progressive" some of these folks like to call themselves. It is still incredibly intimidating for some people to think that the smartest person in the room may actually be the one with the most melanin. And even... shockingly... BOOBS too!!

[Quayblue]

17. Lol boobs lol!

So eff'ing stupid.

And what I've noticed too... Now that I wear a huge afro puff regularly, people are even more weird with me. Even though I'm just as nerdy and civil as when I was wearing my transitional Malaysian 14 inch weave (lol). I have my people I'm cool with and the rest I deal with on a strictly business level.

I will be in a full-blown Afro with a Hillary pants suit giving presentations to the CEO and CFO within a few months. This is a methodical process for me and and hell, a lot of us. We got to plan around our blackness. And for us black womens, the boobs as well.

[lib87]

21. Let them Sweat

I wear a high large puff daily and when I wear heels? I now love the intimidation factor. Use it to your advantage and don't let their discomfort with your Blackness (and boobs! lol) dim that shine

[Quayblue]

25. Thank you! Xo

[Number23]

29. "We got to plan around our blackness." Holy hell ain't THAT the truth

And you know what happens whenever you go trying to make plans. The universe reminds you that you have no control over ANYTHING. EVER.

Girl, good luck with the presentations! I'm sure you'll knock them out of the park. My mother used to do diversity training and she'd go into the room, a black woman with damn near waist length dreadlocks and she'd say that almost immediately she could feel the folks in the room -- usually the ones that needed the diversity training the most desperately -- start pulling away and doing what they could to discount her and her perspective. Those were the ones she had the most fun with.

"We got to plan around our blackness." Damn, that's like the truest words I've heard all month.

[JI7]

33. yup and it's often those who think they are so fucking liberal and progressive

that have the biggest problem with it.

[Digital Puppy]

16. Nothing at all wrong with the advice you gave...

I think it's important that "young" people hear clear/level advice and I really appreciate your efforts as a mentor. Too many times our inexperienced POC enter the workforce with pockets full of knowledge and degrees but no advocate at the work place...no person to tap them on the shoulder and say, "hold up...what about this..."

Anyway, I think your advice was sound, but more importantly, I love the way you delivered your message!

[1StrongBlackMan]

18. I come from a time and place where, 30 years ago ...

it was an obligation to bring someone along with you and push them beyond where you've gone. That was the true sign of succeeding.

Sadly, it seems mentoring to help place someone in the position to surpass you, is a near dead art ... everyone wants to be the HNIC ... they see themselves as the power brokers; I was taught they just plug up the pipeline.

[lib87]

20. It Was Sound Advice

Recognizing the power structures, race, gender etc early on in the career game is great. I work with kids and many have the same mentality as your mentee 'despite your title and experience, my way is better and that's how I'm going to do it'. Say wut lol. I always ask them how it's worked out in the past and they always have the same blank face expression as it quietly registers that it has not. It appears some people think that general rules don't apply to them.

[1StrongBlackMan]

23. LOL ...

I always ask them how it's worked out in the past and they always have the same blank face expression as it quietly registers that it has not. It appears some people think that general rules don't apply to them.

It's like they think they invented the game!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. you did the right thing. he needs to respect that she might actually know more than he does

and if he doesn't than he should think of an exit route quickly

[forjusticethunders]

24. Being right is only half the battle.

I hate that there's a game you gotta play but you have to defer to people more experienced than you unless you get INSTANT results. People have pride in their experience and the fact they paid their dues so even if you are rights, shoving it down their throats will do the opposite.

With that said, I'm one to talk, I'm kind of a vocal type A personality with a defiant streak but I work in the DOD so that shit won't fly.

[ismnotwasm]

26. You know in nursing,

There is the problem of rather an opposite sort. A policy and procedure will be up-graded or changed. Older nurses generally roll their eyes and are resistant to change--even though changes usually stem from an event of some sort or evidence-based practice. Newer nurses without the years of experiance just kind of roll with it, nurses with decades of experience need more time to incorporate changes, even changes that improve outcomes and safety.

I see why the young man would want to be as efficient as possible of course, but I have to say, I'm glad he has a mentor to tell him to cool it down-- there are other ways of presenting information when one want to change how something is done besides being defiant, ways that DO help careers.

[bravenak]

27. You did exactly the right thing

I have found myself having serious discussions with family members recently, where I had to stop being the fun one, and offer a few truths that they just HAD to know about life. Sometimes at work we do not know why we have to do things a certain way, but I found out in military contracting, that a new, better way, just was not always viable given the nature of the job. Later I realized exactly why I was told to do it that way. Usually a cya situation. Best move is to learn to take direction and pay your dues. Office politics can get real stressful is one is always ready for a squabble.

[DonCoquixote]

28. There is another factor involved, protected incompetence

Now hang on, there is a method to my madness here, I promise.

It may very well be that the way that the workplace does procedure "ABC" is indeed wasteful and stupid. Indeed, the better and more honest graduate schools in a field will, with the best intentions, try to warn them "I know your boss like doing procedure ABC as opposed to XYZ, it is a waste of time, and more often than not, will cause a lot of trouble which will then get blamed on you, because Managers A and B do not want to admit that they get their job by passing along stupid procedures that their bosses like, in spite of the fact they are awful."

Very often, the answer to your question "will it kill you to do it this way" will indeed be a litany of genuine, real grievances, especially if the company has just gotten a bunch of directives from the ULTIMATE young kids that do not know what they are doing , the elite MBA trained managers, the ones that claim they are part of the Meritocracy, yet have all the sociological diversity of the Mayflower. Not all MBAs are awful, but the ones in top positions very rarely get to their positions on merit, and they are taught that experience is evil because that will prevent them from making all the changes: think of Mitt Romney and G.W. Bush. So, being a minority, many of these young students will realize they are the scapegoats and speed bumps.

Of course these Grad Schools teach the kids to buck, then again they are also an example of protected incompetence because they will never deal with the consequences of what they say. Yes, they will hide behind the truth that yes, these kids are going to deal with stupid stuff, but they are not going to be there when you say "Hey, did you actually teach any people skills while you were having all this fun teaching them to be the revolutionaries you obviously never were?" That is where you come in and say "look, I know they filled your head up with a lot of stuff, stuff that, when the time comes, you will find useful, but in order to buck the system, you first need to be established. Sooner or later, the people with wrong ideas will either fall, or promote you so that they can get you away from them, but you won't do that until you show you have "paid your dues."

I apologize if I seemed harsh, and I will be the first to admit I do not know your office. However, I see Millennials get bashed a lot bu both left and right, and a lot of the time, it is because a lot of the BS we have learned to tolerate was exposed to them before they learned to swallow it. The modern office today is so much harder to swallow, as , thanks to mergers and outsourcing, we have people in charge who really do not know and do not care. If they crash this company, it's wont be their problem, as even Buffoons in a certain level always are given chances. The GOP is about to put a prime example of that as their candidate for president, and the same middle managers grad students hate will have to listen as these cigar smoking "meritocracy" twerps say "hell yeah!" While you want and need to help people like your student learn, keep in mind this coarseness of the millennials is something that will serve us well in the years ahead. When the last gasp of Wasp Power tries to make it's last stand, and when the seas start flowing into Manhattan, it will take the "why the hell should I believe you" mentality to avoid mowed down.

[Ellen Forradalom]

31. Well done.

Youth in a hurry can lose sight of the long game.

[kwassa]

36. The boss is always right, even he/she is wrong.

Life is full of stupid hoops that one must jump through to proceed onward. One might fight the hoop, or just jump and keep on moving.

[1StrongBlackMan]

37. So very true ...

so long as what is being directed is not illegal, immoral, or unethical, it's usually wiser in the long-term to offer your suggestion, and when rejected, do as you are told. But that's just the authoritarian lackey in me!

[SusanCalvin]

38. It's the only reasonable thing to do.

You're unhappy enough, find a different job.

[lovemydog]

40. You gave your mentee

great advice.

I used to always try and do things my way. Got a job disarming land mines. Now they call me Hopalong. (j/k)