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stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 05:34 PM Jun 2016

The lesson is clear. If you want to lead a political revolution from the left in the US

African Americans and Latinos better be part of your coalition from its earliest incarnations. They're not someone you try to pick up along the way.

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The lesson is clear. If you want to lead a political revolution from the left in the US (Original Post) stevenleser Jun 2016 OP
Not simply a political revolution from the left, guillaumeb Jun 2016 #1
No question, but neither African Americans not Latinos are stupid. They know where the stevenleser Jun 2016 #2
That whole "left" bullshit was a canard. MADem Jun 2016 #3
... DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2016 #4
Ah, yes--the horseshoe theory! MADem Jun 2016 #5
well he did provide for jobs in the MIC making war machinery. does that count? nt msongs Jun 2016 #8
He did bring home the Burlington bacon...! MADem Jun 2016 #20
That doesn't seem like a fair critique of his deodorant comment gollygee Jun 2016 #9
My mileage varies. MADem Jun 2016 #17
This message was self-deleted by its author Poincare Jun 2016 #16
You're calling me a racist, a paid poster and a red stater? You enjoy your stay. nt MADem Jun 2016 #18
I think you hurt mercuryblues Jun 2016 #58
I have a few detractors here. MADem Jun 2016 #59
It isn't slander or libel gollygee Jun 2016 #21
How on earth did this post survive a 2-5 jury verdict? It's absolutely nothing but a personal attack Number23 Jun 2016 #23
I'm removing him JustAnotherGen Jun 2016 #25
Weaver and Divine admitted not competing in the "southern states" & Sanders lost by over 2 mil votes uponit7771 Jun 2016 #27
Very well-stated, IMO. BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #24
Not always ... he was a risk taker ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #46
LOL, I see what you did there. stevenleser Jun 2016 #47
Ah yes ... BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #50
Credit, where credit is due ... even if it stretches back 50 years ago. 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #53
Thanks for refreshing my BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #55
+1 uponit7771 Jun 2016 #26
MADem, I bow to you all american girl Jun 2016 #31
Wow! Beautifully put. Thank you for this. PeaceNikki Jun 2016 #51
Yes, I agree. aikoaiko Jun 2016 #6
and you better address all of our issues and concerns Coolest Ranger Jun 2016 #7
I'm hoping next time the leader will come out of the African American/Latino coalition Starry Messenger Jun 2016 #10
So...the messenger matters more than the message? n/t TCJ70 Jun 2016 #30
A) This is the African American group. Starry Messenger Jun 2016 #32
A) I'm fully aware of that. Not sure why it matters unless you think I'm out of line for some reason TCJ70 Jun 2016 #34
Because part of this group is about decentering whiteness Starry Messenger Jun 2016 #36
It seems I misinterpreted the purpose of this group...I apologize. TCJ70 Jun 2016 #37
That's not even CLOSE to what Starry said. Number23 Jun 2016 #43
No ... As a Group host I am comfort with the Group's Statement of Purpose ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #48
The message is influenced by the views and biases of the messenger. forjusticethunders Jun 2016 #61
You don't know me or my race. n/t TCJ70 Jun 2016 #62
We can infer it from not knowing the first basic thing about the benefits of diversity. stevenleser Jun 2016 #64
It's people like you Coolest Ranger Jun 2016 #66
Nothing wrong with the messenger looking like a big chunk MADem Jun 2016 #33
Absolutely not... TCJ70 Jun 2016 #35
Or their gender. MADem Jun 2016 #40
yes, like working with BLM and Michelle Alexander MisterP Jun 2016 #11
Somehow, Spike Lee missed the basic tenet of yr wisdom. truedelphi Jun 2016 #12
That's one lesson. Another one Stevepol Jun 2016 #13
You bring up a good point! serbbral Jun 2016 #29
That's true for anyone who wants to win the presidency gollygee Jun 2016 #14
It's not a revolution if you are asking anyone's permission. This is remodeling. jtuck004 Jun 2016 #15
"When it is a revolution, the people will join. Not before." I like that. Well said. Number23 Jun 2016 #22
K&R ismnotwasm Jun 2016 #19
Yes! bravenak Jun 2016 #28
I'm African-American, and I just voted for Bernie in CA noiretextatique Jun 2016 #38
The singular of data is not anecdote. Thanks for wasting our time pretending you dont know stevenleser Jun 2016 #39
Bam!!! Number23 Jun 2016 #45
Thank you, I'm really tired of this nonsense. stevenleser Jun 2016 #63
I wonder who Clarence Thomas voted? ... 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #49
And if you do that as Jesse Jackson wisely did in 1984 and 1988, you will undoubtedly mhatrw Jun 2016 #41
some people have missed that memo MisterP Jun 2016 #42
What does your post have to do with ANYTHING in this OP? Why do you insist on coming into this forum Number23 Jun 2016 #44
Can I block them now? JustAnotherGen Jun 2016 #56
Please do!! You know me, I am always trying to "understand" and rationalize Number23 Jun 2016 #57
Poof!!! JustAnotherGen Jun 2016 #60
Thank You! Tarheel_Dem Jun 2016 #52
After the theft of the 2000 election WhiteTara Jun 2016 #54
Exactly right, Steven.. I've seen that written more than once Cha Jun 2016 #65

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
1. Not simply a political revolution from the left,
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 05:40 PM
Jun 2016

but any progress toward a more just society must include the non-white segment of the population. The minority is soon to be the majority in many states.

Absent massive voter fraud and disenfranchisement, the GOP may fail to win any Presidential elections at this point.

But picking up and retaining support means actually accomplishing things for the supporters.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
2. No question, but neither African Americans not Latinos are stupid. They know where the
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 05:48 PM
Jun 2016

obstruction comes from. Latinos, for instance, may have been mad at the lack of progress on comprehensive immigration reform, and some of their irritation was aimed at the President, the lions share of their ire continues to be aimed at the group that is actually stopping the progress, the Republicans. And we can see from what that part of the political spectrum in the US nominated to be their Presidential nominee what they think of Latinos and immigration reform.

Same thing with most issues of import to the African American community and the rest of the issues important to Latinos.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
3. That whole "left" bullshit was a canard.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 05:58 PM
Jun 2016

You go far enough left and you're in authoritarian right territory. This is a guy who, in his early years, wanted the government to regulate how many kinds of deodorant were "allowed" to be sold in stores (too much variety was confusing, or something), and who wanted government to control television content. He wrote SCREEDS about this shit.

He thought--no doubt because his constituency fits the mold--that he could run the ball up the middle, and snatch up all those Angry White Men, Fred Lunchbox and Harry Feedcap, those beer drinkin', gun ownin', grumbling guys who are "dissatisfied" for this reason or that. He thought he could marry them to the dewy-eyed idealistic youth who love the idea of "the rich" paying off their debts, but don't realistically envision the day when they might be the ones doling out the cash. He thought that his economic policy vision could solve all woes, including the woes that one endures if one is blessed with more melanin than the cop who is stopping you for no damn reason. He knew nothing of "inner city schools," he knew nothing about "food deserts," and "banking deserts" and "economic opportunity deserts." He thought everything could be solved with a fifteen dollar minimum wage across the country, from Mississippi to NYC, and by preventing "those foreigners" from "takin' our jerbs."

He looked at everything through the eyes of a seventy four year old white man with some old school ideas--and it showed. That's why he didn't cut it. He's not a mean guy, but he lacks true empathy and understanding of lives not like his own. He thinks that if HE thinks it's good, it IS good. He believes he is the default. He just can't relate to experiences that he has not endured. He tried, after BLM stumbling and other tone-deaf comments, but you could tell he wasn't really feeling it. He'd have to do a Trading Places Dan Ackroyd/Eddie Murphy switch--only with a black or latina WOMAN--to get the spirit, I think.

It's not surprising that he has so few friends in Congress. The fact that he could only get a few of them to pledge to serve as a super delegate on his behalf is probably the biggest alarm bell of all. If your co-workers, your own peers, won't back you, then they just might know something worth knowing....

MADem

(135,425 posts)
5. Ah, yes--the horseshoe theory!
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 06:04 PM
Jun 2016

It's a reasonable argument, especially to anyone who has read some of the stuff people have written on this board during this primary season!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
20. He did bring home the Burlington bacon...!
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 08:51 PM
Jun 2016

Of course, all those people on the unemployment line from Burlington College, to say nothing of the loss of revenue to businesses in the area from students who are no longer attending, might make the whole process a wash.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
9. That doesn't seem like a fair critique of his deodorant comment
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 07:05 PM
Jun 2016

He is saying that our priorities of a nation are screwed up. That doesn't mean that he thinks we should regulate how many choices are available, simply that our priorities are screwed up when we have so many options for some people, and such extreme poverty for others.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
17. My mileage varies.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 08:45 PM
Jun 2016

He's criticizing private industry. In the land of the free, if you want to make the same damn thing everyone else is making, and sell it, Bernie Sanders or the US government should stay the hell out of it. If it's not a public safety matter, at any rate. He's putting people down for wanting a choice of what HE regards as a "mundane" item. However, if you are chemically sensitive, say, or stink like a skunk, maybe you just might need a "specialty" deodorant. It's not his f-ing job to tell stores how many of a product they can stock, or to put people down for either making the products or liking a wide choice.

In countries where there are few choices, there's little difference between the rich and poor--thing is, the rich are, in those places, by most world measures, also poor as catshit. They might have a larger mud hut and make twenty cents more a month or something, but they aren't living large. You can't count the uber-rich in these places (like, say, VZ) because they hide their money abroad and can leave if things get bad at a moment's notice.

America has never been about "shared misery" and that does seem like his priorities. We can move forward with improved social services without having to deny people their deodorant or wide TV choices. It's not a zero sum deal.

Of course, he's not living like a poor fellow these days--he makes six times the median income of his state, and who knows what his investments are creating...we won't know, either, because he won't release his taxes.

It just seems a little "Serfs and Lords" to me, his attitude.

Response to MADem (Reply #3)

mercuryblues

(14,525 posts)
58. I think you hurt
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 08:31 PM
Jun 2016

somebody's feelings. Don't worry though, 8 posts in 16 years a member. It will take him 2 years before he responds.

What I want to know is how in the hell that shit passed a jury? Attacking a DU member in a protected group? Oh. wait. the op does not put Bernie in a positive light. Bob's last fuck you before they run off to their tree fort.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
59. I have a few detractors here.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 08:34 PM
Jun 2016

I imagine I drew some unlucky straws....?

I should think that would be a slam dunk. Wonder if any of the jurors who voted to leave that thing are even ELIGIBLE to post in this group?

Your last couple of lines, though, made me laugh, so I'm glad it didn't get hidden--the visual is magnificent!

Number23

(24,544 posts)
23. How on earth did this post survive a 2-5 jury verdict? It's absolutely nothing but a personal attack
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 02:28 AM
Jun 2016

And one that is not even remotely close to reality.

uponit7771

(90,304 posts)
27. Weaver and Divine admitted not competing in the "southern states" & Sanders lost by over 2 mil votes
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 06:01 AM
Jun 2016

BlueMTexpat

(15,365 posts)
24. Very well-stated, IMO.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 02:36 AM
Jun 2016

Bernie has always been more of an observer and a critic - always from a safe vantage point and in a receptive echo chamber - than an actual actor in the thick of things.

To his credit, he became a risk-taker during this primary season. But he forgot that one must have actual time in the trenches to build a winning coalition.

aikoaiko

(34,163 posts)
6. Yes, I agree.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 06:41 PM
Jun 2016

I think HRC had done an enormous amount bridge building with minority leaders since 2008 in very practical terms (State Dept jobs to high qualified POC and Foundation support to very deserving initiatives) as well as symbolic moments. Plus there was the support from President Obama. I'm sure HRC was sincere, but it was also good politics.

And I think Bernie had no coalition when he started out. He was trying to pick up everyone along the way. Some came along easily (people like him), some came along, and some had little use for him.




Coolest Ranger

(2,034 posts)
7. and you better address all of our issues and concerns
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 07:02 PM
Jun 2016

as well. None of this I want free this and free that. You tell us how you going to keep our water safe, tell me how you going to help fund our schools, you tell me that you're going to restore the voting rights of ex-cons, you going to help increase the job rate in the black community. You do that and I see more than lip service from you and you got my vote

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
10. I'm hoping next time the leader will come out of the African American/Latino coalition
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 07:06 PM
Jun 2016

That would be the person I would follow.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
32. A) This is the African American group.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 12:18 PM
Jun 2016

B) Often the message is a result of the experiences of the messenger, and that person has resonance with a broader coalition than John Q. Whiteguy, so yes.

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
34. A) I'm fully aware of that. Not sure why it matters unless you think I'm out of line for some reason
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 02:31 PM
Jun 2016

B) We disagree that it should matter, but that's OK. Everyone's experiences are there own and to discount someone's experiences, especially if you may not be sure what they are, because of their skin color seems wrong to me.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
36. Because part of this group is about decentering whiteness
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 02:42 PM
Jun 2016

and not attempting to preserve white feelings. By displaying the desire to speak from a perspective that "all is equal" in terms of who leads, or why someone may be better equipped to speak on experiences, your "full awareness" seems short on self-reflection.

To speak of someone "discounting" someones experience because they are white, which is what you are doing, is to misunderstand, profoundly, the discussions in this group. The voices of POC are "discounted" so low in American society, and white voices are "marked-up" constantly, in value.

I made a simple happy comment about what I feel would benefit a left-wing movement in the future, and you are continuing to derail this thread. Why, I can guess.

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
37. It seems I misinterpreted the purpose of this group...I apologize.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 03:06 PM
Jun 2016

I would recommend updating the Statement of Purpose as all it currently says is:

"Discuss topics and issues which affect the African-American community. DUers from all races are welcome to participate."

I don't think it is the responsibility of anyone to preserve anyone's feelings. I just disagree with outright ignoring someone who may have an excellent message because of their skin color. Pick whichever shade you want, it's wrong. I don't care who says the right things, as long as they say it and live it.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
43. That's not even CLOSE to what Starry said.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 07:04 PM
Jun 2016
I just disagree with outright ignoring someone who may have an excellent message because of their skin color.

Your comments say more about you than they do the person you attempting to engage. I hope whatever audience you're putting this little performance on for is enjoying this more than we are.
 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
48. No ... As a Group host I am comfort with the Group's Statement of Purpose ...
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 07:20 PM
Jun 2016

and would resist making any kind of change.

But that said ...

I just disagree with outright ignoring someone who may have an excellent message because of their skin color.


I would strongly suggest you re-read what Starry Messenger wrote, as it doesn't resemble anything about ignoring someone who may have an excellent message because of their skin color.
 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
61. The message is influenced by the views and biases of the messenger.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 09:52 PM
Jun 2016

Believe it or not, if you're not of a certain background or lack experience/education working and dealing with and struggling to gain solidarity with people of said background, then the message that may seem "excellent" to you will come off as patronizing and dismissive to us. Honestly, check your fucking privilege, and that goes for nearly every one of you white """progressives""" who want to talk down to people and essentially imply we're being RACIST towards white people because we won't passively lap up your oh-so-progressive opinion".

POC are driving this bus now, and if you don't like it, you can go the angry white silent ****minority**** of Trump voters who are going to be politically irrelevant soon. This time, there aren't enough entitled angry white people to derail progress when they don't get catered to.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
64. We can infer it from not knowing the first basic thing about the benefits of diversity.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 08:46 AM
Jun 2016

Not only can we infer that, it would seem you have purposefully ignored any discussion or reading on why having a diverse workplace or organization is beneficial.

I doubt many politically active minorities would be in a similar position.

Coolest Ranger

(2,034 posts)
66. It's people like you
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 09:33 AM
Jun 2016

that frustrates so many of us. You act like we aren't intelligent enough to see what is going on. I really wish you leave the group

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
35. Absolutely not...
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 02:34 PM
Jun 2016

...but no one's experience or message should be written off because of their skin color.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
40. Or their gender.
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 05:52 PM
Jun 2016

Or their orientation, or religion, or lack thereof.

Sadly, it's been the default for most of our history that only the "family man" caucasian male is "qualified" to lead the nation. We finally challenged that eight years ago--and what a wonderful result.

I'm glad that paradigm is being challenged by exceptional individuals.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
12. Somehow, Spike Lee missed the basic tenet of yr wisdom.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 08:13 PM
Jun 2016

If you don't know what i mean, catch the URL at my sig line.

Stevepol

(4,234 posts)
13. That's one lesson. Another one
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 08:21 PM
Jun 2016

is that you better make as sure as you can that the voter validation and vote-counting process are fair and VERIFIABLE. At present this is not so in America so it's pretty much impossible for a new candidate like Bernie and especially one that is so strongly opposed by the corporate and financial powers that be to succeed in his REVOLUTION, at least not in one try.

Obama had a lot of financial support from Wall Street and won by what I think was probably an unexpectedly large margin so it was hard for the machine makers or the people programming or hacking the voting machines or diverting the vote total feed to a man in the middle as Rove did in OH 04 or etc. etc. etc. to do their little magic show.

Until the vote counting is VERIFIABLE, I don't think there's a chance for somebody like Bernie to win. I wish I would turn out to be wrong, but I don't think so. If our vote had been verifiable beginning in 2000, none of the losses that has occurred would have occurred. Roy Barnes, the very good and well-liked Gov in GA, would not have lost in 2002 to Sonny Perdue, a total washout as a Gov, and Max Cleland would not have lost in the same election in GA. And there are many many more cases where the result was almost certainly a fallacious one attributable to the machines.

serbbral

(260 posts)
29. You bring up a good point!
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 09:55 AM
Jun 2016

Just like Bernie should have interacted with Black and Latinos more in the past before he wanted to run for Prez, he should have been trying to change the voting system before hand if he thought it was unfair (I agree that there needs to be changes). He knew the rules before he entered the race. Waiting until the middle of an election, especially one in which YOU are the candidate to call foul win it is clear that you are the one who's losing does not look good at all. It just makes you look like a sore looser, plain and simple.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
14. That's true for anyone who wants to win the presidency
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 08:24 PM
Jun 2016

White people alone can't win the presidency anymore. The times they have a'changed.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
15. It's not a revolution if you are asking anyone's permission. This is remodeling.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 08:27 PM
Jun 2016

When it is a revolution, the people will join. Not before.

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
38. I'm African-American, and I just voted for Bernie in CA
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 03:27 PM
Jun 2016

So will other African-Americans for Bernie. I wonder how Hillary's "revolution" will work out for AA's, because we didn't fare too well with her husband's. Thanks for whitesplainin' though. I am sure others will applaud this irony.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
39. The singular of data is not anecdote. Thanks for wasting our time pretending you dont know
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 04:23 PM
Jun 2016

what I am talking about and pretending you dont know how the African American community has overwhelmingly voted for Hillary.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
63. Thank you, I'm really tired of this nonsense.
Wed Jun 8, 2016, 08:35 AM
Jun 2016

The inane arguments, the straw men, the personal attacks, the mean spiritedness, the gaslighting.

Enough!

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
49. I wonder who Clarence Thomas voted? ...
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 07:24 PM
Jun 2016

Black folks DO have out outliers ... just like every other group.

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
41. And if you do that as Jesse Jackson wisely did in 1984 and 1988, you will undoubtedly
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 06:01 PM
Jun 2016

gain numerous official endorsements from powerful white establishment Democratic politicians.



Number23

(24,544 posts)
44. What does your post have to do with ANYTHING in this OP? Why do you insist on coming into this forum
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 07:06 PM
Jun 2016

for the sole purpose of embarrassing yourself completely?

JustAnotherGen

(31,783 posts)
56. Can I block them now?
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 08:17 PM
Jun 2016

Last time it was quite the drama and they just deleted their thread.

That person is never just here for the convo.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
57. Please do!! You know me, I am always trying to "understand" and rationalize
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 08:23 PM
Jun 2016

Where as you are just the Ban Hammer Jammer. And I truly do understand that sometimes that's the only course of action to take.

WhiteTara

(29,692 posts)
54. After the theft of the 2000 election
Tue Jun 7, 2016, 07:53 PM
Jun 2016

I was in deep despair and I heard Al Sharpton on the radio giving a speech and I knew that we were to win,it would be through the strength of African Americans.

Cha

(296,875 posts)
65. Exactly right, Steven.. I've seen that written more than once
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 01:27 AM
Jun 2016

throughout this campaign. And, it's soooo obvious!

Thank you!

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