Racism: The Impossible Discussion ...

I have repeatedly tried to discuss the reality of racism in America and the ramifications of the years of white supremacy and violence on the psyche of Black people in America. The negative images pumped into us as Americans from the media and the System we live under. We have been America's whipping boy for so long it has become natural abd unquestioned. Switch the words black for white, and you will see a pile on of people stressed out that people are saying bad things about white people. Those same people never get all up in arms or defensive when things are said about black people. They will find ways to justify it.

Another thing I noticed is that some seem to think racism is a boack probkem that black people need to solve by being more like white people. They seem to think that our speech or manner of dress is the real problem and that we can somehow 'overcome' the obstacles by dressing better and speaking in a non regional dialect . They never ever question the fact that those 'obstacles' exist. Why should there be extra obsatacles you must overcome?

They can always start their own thread -and never do.

I see it from the other side and can empathize with the difficulty you and other AA members face, especially in the light of some horrific racist events and their aftermaths. As a Jew, I see it here with regards to anti-Semitism...A LOT! As a gay man, I don't see too much push back in regards to homophobia, but there is quite of bit of "fag" jokes that seem to get the "ok" from allegedly "progressive" posters.

It is difficult, but don't let them bog you down with "the dictionary says..." it is nothing more than a misdirection. I actually have a pat response in regards to anti-Semitism, I post it, then re-focus the discussion. If that doesn't work and they keep blathering on about the "definition", then s/he isn't worth the time, and unless a bigger point can be made, I move on to something/one else. I don't know if it will help you, but it might.

"How is this any different having a climate change discussion with a fox-watching conservative?"

In some cases, the is absolutely NO difference, but there are some, who with time, do come to understand. But, let's be honest, sometimes, it is nothing but a damn exercise in futility.

Some white people are vested in denying racism because they are vested in continuing white supremacy. On my phone...will revisit.

just to piss you off...

When you see this happening, just walk away...Not worth the aggravation...

I'm tired of it as well.

Thanks.

I don't know that you have seen this; but, here's some good and informative stuff:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-bias/index.html?hpt=hp_t5

The editorial is good; but, the links to relevant studies and writings will open the eyes of anyone willing to see.

I wish more people would read your posts as the education they are. I have learned a lot from reading your posts.

I try.

I suspect many do read my posts; but quickly discount them because ... you know ...

I've been here nine years, though not active that whole time, and I used to simply follow subjects and arguments that interested me. I like to argue. To a point.

In the past year I take much more care to watch who is saying what, and that has been far more revealing to me.

In my opinion, the ones that keep showing up over and over again in race threads in opposition, even when they are presented with truthful and compelling arguments, are the closet bigots. They are not obvious about it, they don't directly say something racist, they might never make a statement that would get hidden by a jury. They do keep advancing critiques in opposition repeatedly, that reveals they have this agenda.

I'm sure all of us could come up with a group of names very quickly.

And, it would be very hard to prove a case to the admins without spending hours of research that I personally don't have.

I will also say that over these nine years, I've seen other constituencies here complain about the same thing: feminists complaining about tolerated misogyny, gay members about anti-gay attitudes and remarks (this turned into a major war) various other groups not even allowed in GD anymore, (gun arguments, Israel vs. Palestine, etc.). And we see it every day in GD in the endless war between the far left and the more center left.

Some the treatment Obama receives, pro and con, is legitimate. Some had other issues.

but pay attention to WHO is saying things, and focus on that individual. And go after them, within the bounds of this forum.

They are racist. They don't want to believe it so rather than taking a look at themselves, they deny.

It's different because it's personal and white privilege doesn't exist in their world. They see themselves as liberal and progressives so they're different than your average red neck.

It's different because people basically suck.

I am enraged at some of what I see.

I am also sorry. I'm sorry. I'm just sorry.

unwittingly doing/saying something that is racist, does not make that person a racist (and few PoC, would argue otherwise).

No one is seeking an admission that someone is racist; rather, everyone (most) just seek that that someone stop doing/saying racist stuff.

I am sure you are correct. Perhaps saying something stupid doesn't necessarily equal racist. Maybe admitting something said is racist?

I saw a post last night that infuriated me. I am blown away that it was allowed to remain. But some of the comments are even worse.

I am no innocent. I have made mistakes. I would rather be called out on them and, if too dense to see that a comment is racist, have it explained to me. I remember having to explain to a relative why hearing their kids say, "that's so gay" was hurtful to me. I finally gave up. And this relative sees herself as liberal as they come. The kids, all teens, understood immediately and stopped doing it.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe just say, "can we talk about this in an objective, friendly manner?" Even though I don't think that should have to be asked, maybe it would start a calm discussion.

I am at a loss.

Funny ... the other day, a DUer was taken to task for posting something that his grand-father said (about slaves could have ended slavery because they had weapons and out-numbered those that enslaved them). I think I was the only respondent on that thread that did not see the post as racist!



I hear you! Now, try explaining the impropriety of that statement to someone that argues that saying it is OK, because 20 years ago, the dictionary said "Gay" means ... (Or, maybe you have ... and that's why you finally gave up )



Sorry ... But we can't even come to terms with terminology!

I would rather not take the chance of linking it here as something that can be alerted. Only because of the subject matter of the post and my comments

that make prejudice, discrimination, and racism different from one another. And more to the point, don't grasp the power and institutional differentials that make "racism goes both ways" beyond absurd. Very good post.

of racism, are so quick to recognize it when discussing, say, "the 1%."

Racism, by definition does not include some sort of bigotry against whites. Whiteness is the invisible standard, all else is held against; whiteness isn't forced to 'explain itself', it's the default state, the 'norm'.

When a society is entrenched in whiteness, it cannot see itself without effort and discomfort. We, or I, rather, as a white person have to embrace this discomfort, accept that I have white privledge. I also feel, not 'white guilt' in the fashionable sense of the term, but a social responsibility as a white person, perfectly in line with my progressive values to try and not be an ignorant, racist ass. It takes effort. Certain Whites, when confronted with this idea of racial effort in their lives, react rather than think. It's a under the rock pretentious and emotional response, harmful and hurtful.

To point fingers at the other and say 'look what 'they' do, simply reinforces racism, to do so is a racist act in itself, IMO.

And as whites, we don't call each other out on our own shit often enough, we awkwardly laugh at jokes or pictures that are subtly or blatantly racist, perhaps presented by a relative or friend. I can tell you that personally, my husband and I have drawn that line in the sand. We call it out. We say 'that's ignorant' or 'don't be a racist shit' or 'that's not funny'

Recently, I had an awkward situation with the husband of a very ill patient. He showed me a picture on his phone that was disgustingly racist. I'm stuck here as far as responses. So I expressionessly said, 'oh wow' and left the room. I then talked with an AA nursing assistant who was working with them. I feel her out to see if she's experianced any racism--she had heard references to to "the Asians that work in the cafeteria" (yeah this guy is a piece of work), but nothing directed to her personally-- which she HAS experienced before, several times. I've made sure she's comfortable talking to me about it-- or not, she's a grown woman. She's also a bit shy, and I'm anything but.

I told her that he was a racist shit. (and a few other things-- she gets a kick out of my cussing) Not what exactly. She chose to change her assignment, which she's done before, with my full back up. She should never be forced to be in a vulnerable position with a person like that. That's an example by what I mean by my responsibility as a white person- to stay internally aware of my own, to understand what racism is, and to call it out whenever I can.

I can't tell exactly what/who you're referring to. Since you state you call out racist shit, I assume you are not talking about one white person calling out another. But, I can't tell.

If someone laughs at, and doesn't speak out against, racist, bigoted or misogynistic joke, they're just part of the problem.

You are going to run into racism from the inside, so to speak. One may not recognize it, or more frequently, deny it, or, project it onto someone else. And I'm absolutely talking about calling out racism in other whites. The point of the OP, is racism has a structured definition, involving the dominant culture/race oppressing others, dismissing concerns of racism, the effects of racism, and trying to project racism onto an oppressed class of people.

Tons of history around this. I've heard racism against blacks compared to how the Irish were treated for instance--as a path to redefine the word, and take skin color and actual history out of the equation.

Look at this for example

James Watson Throws a Fit



http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/12/james_watson_selling_nobel_prize_dna_structure_discoverer_s_history_of_racism.html

Here is a very intellectually gifted man who didn't get called out until 2007. He was protected by the same social structure that supports racism. I'm sure individuals found him distasteful. Perhaps there were earlier complaints that went nowhere. This man had to get so over the top with his statements in academia was left with no choice but to censor him. He remained protected, and now is aggrieved because he doesn't understand. How many whites listened to him without saying anything, no matter how they may have personally felt?

Please understand my confusion in your first post.

Just a personal story regarding the Irish and how they were treated in the US. My grandparents were both from Ireland. .my grandfather came here in 1900 and my grandmother in 1910. She was 19 at the time. She worked as a domestic for "the blue bloods of Boston" her first few years here. She wrote to sister, "It's a terrible thing to be a slave to the yanks."

I have always called out any kind of negative talk based on skin color, sexual orientation, etc. I don't even know I understood it when I first did. It was just what my parents did, so I did. I was damn lucky to have the parents I did.

Nice clips in your post. Thank you

By the way, I remember when that happened with Watson. Took too damn long