i have a question. haaland says she is 35th generation pueblo.

[mopinko]

i dont question the depths of her roots.
but i am curious as hell to know if she really has the names of 35 generations of ancestors.
who is are the 1st ppl on that tree?

i mean, that's well over 1000 years.
as someone who thinks of herself as firmly rooted to a place, i am mostly jealous. i have traced back 5 generations in ireland, but i have people all over that island.
and i ended up in the u.s. but i am irish to my core.
i was raised to be proud of that, but until recently, in my 60's, i didnt know my history. so i didnt know what, exactly, i had to be proud of. now i know, and i have a lot to be proud of, including some amazing ancestors.

i think a lot about nomads v rooted people. it would take a truck load of tnt to get me off the spot that i am. i pray one of my kids ends up here when i am gone.
tho i did move away from my hometown, and moved a few times after that, i have been in this house for 35 years.
i feel like if my roots were that deep, i'd be 20' tall.

she seems 20' tall to me.
so, my question is, how extensive is the history of actual pueblo individuals?

sorry to ramble on when it is a pretty simple question.

[Dream Girl]

1. I don't believe Pueblo Indian were nomadic. They lived in the same settlements for eons.

[mopinko]

4. yeah.

Last edited Tue Mar 16, 2021, 11:01 AM - Edit history (1)

i do know a bit about the tribe.
i studied at the art institute. i was a clay person, and took a history of ceramics course.
did a different part of the world each week and about half of the native american lecture was about the pueblo. still amazing potters.
but from that lecture it seemed like not much was known about their personal histories.

that's why that number piqued my interest.

[Goonch]

2. Anasazi, a civilization that arose as early as 1500 B.C. Their descendants are today's Pueblo Indian

[elias7]

3. Mathematically, this comes out of the 550 to 840 year range

If your friend is 60 years old, for example, born in 1960, then 35 generations back would be 560 years for generation length avg of 16 years, and 700 years for generation avg of 20 years, 840 years for generation avg of 24 years. So you’re looking at a range of 1120 c.e. to 1400 c.e.

I don’t know how pueblo history is recorded - oral, song, written, art - but it is a rich tradition to have that kind of awareness.

[mopinko]

6. i was sorta going by my own tree.

my 1st ancestor to come to america, as far as i know, was only 5 generations back.
i think even 25 yrs is too short. i was thinking 20 yrs when i started trying to trace back to a particular great uncle, and was thinking he was at least my 5-6 x great. but he is only gggreat uncle.
big irish families.

[GemDigger]

13. I can go back to the early 1400's and my English ancestors.

Probably could go farther if I went to England. I can name the ancestors for 24 generations. 16 generations in America starting in 1632. I don't see any issue with her knowing her heritage.

[mopinko]

14. it's.not.an.ISSUE.

i am curious and a bit in awe. that's it.

[Irish_Dem]

16. I usually consider 20 yrs for a generation, but Irish men tended to marry later in life

historically. They had to wait until they had money or land to support a family.
So it could be as much as 30 yrs a generation on the Irish male lines.

[mopinko]

19. yup. my ggramps was 42.

served 20 yrs in the army before he married.
and a 20 yrs span from oldest to youngest isnt unusual. it's 15 in my family.

[Irish_Dem]

21. Right, my grandfather was 35 when he married. And 20 yr span of children.

Eight children.

My mother's father was born in Quebec (French Canada) and they have the Irish beat hands down. They have had an average of 20 children for many generations, the French King paid parents a stipend per child and at 20 kids they got a big bonus. My French Canadian grandfather was one of 22 children. Which was normal. They also only married close cousins for hundreds of years, so everyone is a cousin to each other many times over.

[Irish_Dem]

18. I came up with the same numbers for 35 generations.

Around 1300 c.e.

But given that lifespan and fertility periods were younger in age, maybe the 16 yr gen span is more accurate, so closer to 1400.

And we can look up the history of New Mexico and see it was populated with indigenous groups at that time.

[wnylib]

26. That pretty well fits the timeline for

when the Anasazi ancestors of tbe Pueblo people left the 4 corners region and migrated to their present location, due to severe drought.

Four corners region is where Colorado, Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico meet. The Anasazi built the cliff dwellings whose remains are still there.

[2naSalit]

5. Native American culture...

Includes ancient history in the present day, they know, or knew, from whence they came to whatever present day you can refer. Pueblo established permanent homeplaces and have lived in those places for longer than we can imagine.

The current Laguna Pueblo, where she is from, was established in 1699 though her family may have been from another, older one prior to that.

[mopinko]

7. the anisazi were sure firmly rooted.

you dont live in caves on tall cliffs cuz you like the view.
whatever happened to them, they stood firm.

[llashram]

8. ???

[Dream Girl]

9. I know.

[mopinko]

11. just interested in how many actual named ancestors she has.

as someone in the midst of tracing my own tree.
pure curiosity. no malevolent intent whatsoever.

i share the long time feeling of kinship that many irish do.
out histories are very, very similar. same ppl, same time frame, same tactics of stealing land w pen or a gun, whichever is works. and same starvation tactics.
pretty much the only difference is the need to take a ship.
my grandparents came here in steerage.

the feeling is mutual w many tribes.

[Bobstandard]

10. And you ask because why? n/t

[mopinko]

12. pure curiosity.

i adore the woman.

[Irish_Dem]

15. My brother's YDNA testing shows ancient Irish origins.

It is a very rare YDNA and is pre-Celtic, Pre-Druid.
Many thousands of years ago. The aboriginal Irish tribes.
Same area where my grandparents were born and raised.
So we know that the male line was in that spot for thousands of years.

The point is that YDNA testing can show ancient origins.

[mopinko]

17. yeah, i'm tempted to do that.

i have a teenie bit of scandanavian dna, but it's pretty far back.

this wiki says her tribe has been in that spot since 6500 bc.
it mentions oral histories used in that calculation. i would love to hear more about that.

[Irish_Dem]

20. The DNA testing has been a lot of fun and I learned things I never

knew about.

NA groups have a strong tradition of oral history.
And indeed some written as well in terms of cave art, etc.

The Irish were subjugated by the British for 1000 yrs. They were not allowed to read or write.
Or practice their religion. The records were kept secret so not to cause the ire of the British.

So it is hard to get any ideas about the Irish lines. I am lucky since my grandparents were Irish immigrants and I had first hand knowledge of their birth locations and Irish cousins, etc.

[mopinko]

22. i've done the regular dna.

uploaded it to a couple of sites, and found some cousins on both sides of the pond, as well as oz.
i am 3rd gen, and was told that 1 more gen back and all were born in ireland.
turns out that isnt true. one line on both sides goes back at least 4 generations here.

it's been fascinating. both my own tree and irish history in general.
getting more proud to be irish all the time.

[Irish_Dem]

23. Right, the DNA tells the story over family oral history.

Right, the Irish, women especially, deliberately tried to get to Australia and NZ.
So they would commit crimes such as burning down an empty shack so as to get transported.
Women were in short supply so they could literally get off the boat and receive marriage offers. Lucrative ones.

So most Irish will have DNA matches in Oz and NZ.

If you are male, then you might want to consider a YDNA test. Or if female, have a brother or male line cousin do it.

[mopinko]

24. i found a cousin in oz

who was my link to michael dwyer.
he went as a settler, but they would have liked him to go in chains.

yeah, i was surprised how many cousins i found down under. part of what i learned.

[Irish_Dem]

25. So much fun to meet DNA cousins and learn family history.