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Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:05 AM Jan 2020

Is Kobe's death the saddest sports death story, ever?

Bill Simmons did an emergency podcast on the Ringer regarding Kobe's shocking death, and suggested that it might be the saddest sports death story ever. I started thinking about that. The story is shocking, to be sure.

The closest comparison I can come up with is Roberto Clemente's death in the plane crash.

Dale Earnhardt comes to mind, but death has always been an inherent part of motorsports.

Horse racing has had some beautiful animals die on the track, but I'm thinking about people in this context.

There are the disease deaths - Lou Gehrig, Brian Piccolo, Joe Roth

There are the "what might have been" deaths - like Sean Taylor having been murdered, or the Len Bias overdose.

There are events like the plane crash that claimed the Marshall football team.

Munich in '72 - but we generally think of that as a tragic event, like a 9-11, as opposed to the deaths of the individuals involved.

Can you think of a more shocking and/or tragic death in the sports world?

44 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Is Kobe's death the saddest sports death story, ever? (Original Post) Algernon Moncrieff Jan 2020 OP
How can you rank a man's death? ghoulish. Blues Heron Jan 2020 #1
I don't think it is being ranked. Polly Hennessey Jan 2020 #4
Sports figures and entertainment figures tend to define periods in our lives Algernon Moncrieff Jan 2020 #7
I'm really not trying to rank (nor do i think Bill Simmons was). Algernon Moncrieff Jan 2020 #18
Until the next one. Loge23 Jan 2020 #2
Yes - and another aircraft-involved death. Algernon Moncrieff Jan 2020 #6
The ongoing sexual, physical and emotional abuse of ice skaters and gymnasts is right up there. WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2020 #3
Yet they are still alive Polly Hennessey Jan 2020 #5
What I find sad is the willingness of people to look the other way because to challenge power would WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2020 #8
Roberto Clemente, Pittsburgh Pirates Outfielder/Hitter Captain Zero Jan 2020 #9
Yes, and he was on a mission delivering food to hungry people... Freedomofspeech Jan 2020 #12
I replied to someone upthread - historically, I think that's the best comparison Algernon Moncrieff Jan 2020 #19
This is definitely one of the saddest in my lifetime, but as for shocking Mike 03 Jan 2020 #10
The Yankees catcher was Thurman Munson Algernon Moncrieff Jan 2020 #25
Yes, Thurman Munson. Mike 03 Jan 2020 #34
All unexpected deaths visit tragedy on someone, somewhere...life is fragile beyond words. Moostache Jan 2020 #11
Well said Algernon Moncrieff Jan 2020 #24
There have been plenty BeyondGeography Jan 2020 #13
His killer was found not guilty by reason of insanity exboyfil Jan 2020 #14
They probably didn't get much either BeyondGeography Jan 2020 #16
Marshall football airplane accident was big for my family exboyfil Jan 2020 #15
As with Clemente, that is just outside my memory sphere. Algernon Moncrieff Jan 2020 #22
Payne Stewart comes to mind. bluedigger Jan 2020 #17
I'd forgotten that one Algernon Moncrieff Jan 2020 #20
+1 nitpicker Jan 2020 #40
Clemente. gibraltar72 Jan 2020 #21
I think Clemente's was the saddest. OAITW r.2.0 Jan 2020 #23
The Marshall plane crash was devastating underpants Jan 2020 #26
For me awesomerwb1 Jan 2020 #27
That's nuts matt819 Jan 2020 #28
Here is what is different about celebrity tragedy Algernon Moncrieff Jan 2020 #38
True, but matt819 Jan 2020 #43
Ayrton Senna n/t gay texan Jan 2020 #29
University of Evansville entire basketball team Chipper Chat Jan 2020 #30
Little remembered Cleveland Indians pitcher Luke Easter Chipper Chat Jan 2020 #31
Clemente was a major one for me - I'd met him very briefly Jarqui Jan 2020 #32
Earnhardt's death was sad because he'd walked away from worse crashes before jmowreader Jan 2020 #33
It really didn't look that bad, did it? Algernon Moncrieff Jan 2020 #37
Until he got killed in one, I was starting to believe Earnhardt was immune to crash damage jmowreader Jan 2020 #39
The entire US figure skating team was killed in a plane crash in 1961. LisaM Jan 2020 #35
Let's not start keeping score like this. Totally inappropriate. Nitram Jan 2020 #36
Just last year Emiiiano Sala the Argentine footballer nitpicker Jan 2020 #41
They all feel like that in the moment. (n/t) Iggo Jan 2020 #42
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2020 #44

Polly Hennessey

(6,747 posts)
4. I don't think it is being ranked.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:17 AM
Jan 2020

Pure feelings of grief and trying to make some sense of it. I am not a basketball or sports fan, yet the suddenness of their deaths and all so young. Even I feel a profound sense of loss.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
7. Sports figures and entertainment figures tend to define periods in our lives
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:28 AM
Jan 2020

That's part of why the deaths of John Lennon and Elvis were so impactful - and more recently Prince.

Kobe's career began during the last job I held before my current job (which I've been at for over 20 years), and before I had kids. My oldest kid is now a college graduate. She called and said she immediately thought of me when she heard the news.

And you are right -- neither I nor Bill Simmons were trying to rank as much as to come up with a comparison. As you indicated - this is hard to process. The loss of Kobe's daughter - as a father myself - makes this even more difficult.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
18. I'm really not trying to rank (nor do i think Bill Simmons was).
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 11:44 AM
Jan 2020

We all process information in different ways. One way that many people (I include myself here) mentally process events is by analogy. The most simple example I can come up with is 9-11: older folks (my parents age) would say things like "This is so much like Pearl Harbor." Other people who were younger would say things like "The only event of this magnitude I can remember is the death of JFK."

I am just outside the age range to have any actual memory of Clemente's death - I think I was in 1st or 2nd grade. Historically, this seems like that, but a poster down thread reminded me of another apt comparison - Thurman Munson. Well known, championship team, great at his position, and also died in an aviation mishap.

Loge23

(3,922 posts)
2. Until the next one.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:09 AM
Jan 2020

Every tragedy is sad and people react according to their familiarity with the decreased.

Recently in our area, a well-known dentist was killed in a plane crash along with his two daughters on their way to a golf match. That was a very sad event for our community. Another child was killed in a school bus accident - still a raw wound for many. Just recently, a young women rower was killed in an accident in Southwest Florida. How is her friends and family doing today?
Do we all recall the Marshall Football team tragedy - the entire team was lost.

The Yankee catcher, Thurman Munson, was killed in season when his plane crashed. I was a NY'er then and the grief was palatable in the city. He also left a family.

Mr. Bryant was a fabulous basketball player and I'm sure, well-loved by his many fans. The loss of his young daughter, and of the coach and his daughter, is particularly sad.
But let's not elevate a tragedy into a list of worst-evers. Every fatal accident is horrendous for the families left behind, none more than another.


Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
6. Yes - and another aircraft-involved death.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:22 AM
Jan 2020

Another one that this reminded me of (because of the era) was when Lyman Bostock of the California Angels was shot.

Polly Hennessey

(6,747 posts)
5. Yet they are still alive
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:22 AM
Jan 2020

with the chance to overcome their situations and, perhaps, live a fulfilling life. Those in the helicopter were not allowed that chance.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,147 posts)
8. What I find sad is the willingness of people to look the other way because to challenge power would
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:33 AM
Jan 2020

be awkward and uncomfortable and would mean someone gets less money.

Captain Zero

(6,714 posts)
9. Roberto Clemente, Pittsburgh Pirates Outfielder/Hitter
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:37 AM
Jan 2020

People tend to forget over time. Probably equally as sad and tragic as Kobe's death.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
19. I replied to someone upthread - historically, I think that's the best comparison
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 11:46 AM
Jan 2020

I really don't remember it. Another poster reminded me about Thurman Munson's death. But Clemente was certainly one of the defining players of his generation.

Mike 03

(16,616 posts)
10. This is definitely one of the saddest in my lifetime, but as for shocking
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:37 AM
Jan 2020

I remember the wrestler Chris Benoit murdering his family and then committing suicide. That story, because of some of the facts that came out, was extremely shocking, especially about him murdering his young son. I had never heard of him before the incident, so there wasn't the emotional impact Kobe's death has. But people who followed wrestling found this sad and shocking.

EDIT: This was a long time ago, but wasn't a famous Yankees catcher killed in a plane crash? Or maybe he wasn't a catcher. A really well-loved player who was still playing? This might have been the 70s.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
25. The Yankees catcher was Thurman Munson
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 11:57 AM
Jan 2020

I'll be honest enough to admit I'd forgotten the Benoit story. You are right - it was shocking.

Mike 03

(16,616 posts)
34. Yes, Thurman Munson.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 05:26 PM
Jan 2020

His death was mentioned in a book I read about the baseball manager Billy Martin.

Thank you.

Moostache

(9,895 posts)
11. All unexpected deaths visit tragedy on someone, somewhere...life is fragile beyond words.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:46 AM
Jan 2020

Deaths of famous people, larger than life figures are more so...it takes your breath away to know that a man of potential and his daughter and others with them - coaches, fathers, daughters...gone in an instant.

I remember Thurman Munson's passsing in a tragic plane crash, but there was one death of a sports figure that really hit me and stayed with me for a very long time - Pelle Lindbergh, NHL goalie and victim of his own drunk driving. I was barely aware of death and its finality, but that hit me and stuck. It doesn't matter who it is, or the specifics, I believe that famous or unknown, everyone touches lives in a complex web, radiating out like waves on a pond. Some are pebbles, others are boulders and a few are comets.

Kobe was a comet.

BeyondGeography

(39,284 posts)
13. There have been plenty
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 10:59 AM
Jan 2020

Lyman Bostock’s murder bothers me to this day. He was 28, a first-rate ball player and person who had his whole career in front of him:

https://thegruelingtruth.com/baseball/inspiring-life-tragic-death-lyman-bostock/

When people remember Lymon Bostock, the first thing that pops into their head is his death and how he died – which is understandable because it was so so shocking and unnecessary. That’s a shame though because they are missing the most important part of this story – the life that he led. Bostock grew up poor without a father and never let that discourage him from his goals. The man was a giver. After he signed his first huge free agent contract in 1978, he donated money to a church in his native Birmingham that needed help. That’s the kind of person Bostock was. You don’t find his kind in society very often these days.

exboyfil

(17,857 posts)
14. His killer was found not guilty by reason of insanity
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 11:15 AM
Jan 2020

and was "cured" in seven months. Total time of incarceration was 21 months. He apparently never ran foul of the law again and died 31 years after release.

Indiana changed its insanity laws after this incident.

I remember it because I was a kid in Southern California that followed the Angels. I had moved to Mississippi about three months before he was murdered so I didn't get all the news reports folks in SoCal probably got.

BeyondGeography

(39,284 posts)
16. They probably didn't get much either
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 11:24 AM
Jan 2020

Compared with today, I mean. I was in NY and all we got was a couple of wire reports. It was a very different time as you know.

exboyfil

(17,857 posts)
15. Marshall football airplane accident was big for my family
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 11:21 AM
Jan 2020

We had just moved from Huntington to Southern California in September of 1970.

I was a big Jerry West Lakers fan and a moderate Magic Johnson Lakers fan. By the time Kobe Bryant came along, I really didn't follow basketball. It is awful when anyone dies so young and especially awful that his young daughter and the other passengers died.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
22. As with Clemente, that is just outside my memory sphere.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 11:53 AM
Jan 2020

I was 5. We lived in Maryland at the time (like you, we'd moved from California), so I have to suppose it was big news. I've seen the film and can only imagine that the reality was awful.

bluedigger

(17,077 posts)
17. Payne Stewart comes to mind.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 11:42 AM
Jan 2020

Waiting almost four hours for that plane to come down must have been excruciating for all concerned.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
20. I'd forgotten that one
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 11:50 AM
Jan 2020

An excellent golfer. He'd always wear the NFL themed apparel.

Mercifully, everyone on that plane "fell asleep" before the end came.

I remember reading that they had fighters trailing the plane to destroy it if it looked like it would come down on a populated area. They were sent up to see if they could alert the pilot. Sad for all involved.

OAITW r.2.0

(23,862 posts)
23. I think Clemente's was the saddest.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 11:53 AM
Jan 2020

Given that he was on a plane bringing relief supplies to earthquake ravaged Nicaragua.

underpants

(182,279 posts)
26. The Marshall plane crash was devastating
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 12:06 PM
Jan 2020

My family had direct connections. The entire area was in a state of disarray for weeks.

matt819

(10,749 posts)
28. That's nuts
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 12:36 PM
Jan 2020

I don't care much for sports. I've probably seen Kobe Bryant only in replays that someone posts.

But he seemed like a good guy, and to die too soon is a tragedy. And, as President Obama observed, for a parent, the death of a child is unthinkable.

In short, it's a tragedy, but, let's be real, no more or less than the death of any parent or child. Recently, for example, the 150+ deaths on the Ukrainian flight shot down in Iran. That was dramatic, and hundreds of families and probably thousands of relatives have been mourning their losses.

My nephew and niece still mourn the death of my brother after 7 years. My mother, at 90, has been alone since my father died 5 years ago. They were not rich or famous. They were not great in the sense that greatness is measured these days. But they were sons and husbands and fathers and uncles and nephews, and they are missed.

And on and on. Let's not rank tragedy based on drama or stardom or wealth or job.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
38. Here is what is different about celebrity tragedy
Tue Jan 28, 2020, 02:04 AM
Jan 2020

...because you are right, millions die prematurely and tragically. But when an entertsiner, sports figure, or someone like Princess Diana dies, people of a given age range across walks of life experience the loss in a similar way. I've heard people who grew up in the 50s talk about driving to Memphis when Elvis died. Deaths like these mark eras for people.

matt819

(10,749 posts)
43. True, but
Tue Jan 28, 2020, 12:04 PM
Jan 2020

I can remember where I was when Diana died and when Elvis died, etc. you can add any number of others: John Lennon, buddy Holly, Janes Dean, Marilyn Monroe. As sad as celebrity deaths are, for any number of reasons, they really don’t mark the end of an era. The music didn’t die, Racing didn’t stop, movies are still made. The Elvis “era” had already passed when he died. Sure, humans like to find patterns and we sometimes - often? - go out of our way to find them. But, also as humans, we need to recognize these events for what they are and not attach uncalled for significance beyond the very real impact on a personal level and a sense of loss for what might have been.

Jarqui

(10,110 posts)
32. Clemente was a major one for me - I'd met him very briefly
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 01:17 PM
Jan 2020

Others that may not have been mentioned above that whacked me who come to mind and I mention only out of respect for their memories:
Steve Prefontaine
Pat Tillman
Junior Seau
Roy Halladay
Tony Lema
Tim Horton

I don't care to rank them. They were all tragic

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,780 posts)
37. It really didn't look that bad, did it?
Tue Jan 28, 2020, 01:58 AM
Jan 2020

You see other crashes where the car goes into a million pieces; the rescue team comes; and the driver walks away.

jmowreader

(50,453 posts)
39. Until he got killed in one, I was starting to believe Earnhardt was immune to crash damage
Tue Jan 28, 2020, 03:07 AM
Jan 2020

We're talking about a guy who has a roll cage component named after him - one of the two drivers who do. (The Earnhardt bar is the vertical bar in the middle of the windshield...so called because either Earnhardt had the roof collapse during a rollover or because Earnhardt almost ate a tire that flew off someone else's car.) No one was better at flattening a race car than Dale Earnhardt.

And, sadly, no one ever figured out more ways to lose the Daytona 500 than Earnhardt.

But it was fun back then.

LisaM

(27,762 posts)
35. The entire US figure skating team was killed in a plane crash in 1961.
Mon Jan 27, 2020, 07:40 PM
Jan 2020
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/u-s-figure-skating-team-killed-in-plane-crash

I don't remember it, but I've seen documentaries about it, and figure skating in the US was stricken for a while.

I don't compare these things to each other, though. Things resonate with you as you relate to them. Roberto Clemente's death was shocking, but I have friends who probably don't know who he was (my dad and I used to watch a lot of baseball on TV together, and the Pirates were good at the time, and so we ended up unknowingly watching his last game). I follow figure skating, and seeing the footage of 18 team members lost in one moment is gut-wrenching.

So many of these crashes are related to weather that it's hard not to believe that some of them could have been prevented.



nitpicker

(7,153 posts)
41. Just last year Emiiiano Sala the Argentine footballer
Tue Jan 28, 2020, 05:57 AM
Jan 2020

Died in a light plane crash shortly after transferring to Cardiff City.

Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

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