Theology Question

[gopiscrap]

I had a beloved pet (cat) that died on Sunday He was 15 years old. I truly, truly loved him and am grieving incredibly! Because of his death many of us have had a discussion. Question: Do you believe that your pets can join you in heaven? Please vote and discuss. THis poll and discussion is for those who believe in the concept of a heaven.

2 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	yes
	2 (100%)
	no
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[orpupilofnature57]

1. I hope so .

[hrmjustin]

2. I believe they come with us.

[skepticscott]

12. And will you some day not believe this any longer?

Or will faith win out?

[hrmjustin]

14. I have faith they come with us.

What do you think happens after death?

[gopiscrap]

20. I believe they do

because as I said before, if heaven is to be as glorious as described by the nuns in our religion classes, and if I loved my pet and others so much, why wouldn't they be there! Other wise to me it wouldn't be heaven.

[gopiscrap]

3. I chose yes because

if heaven is to be as wonderful and glorious as our nuns described it in school...then if you truly loved your pet, why wouldn't they be there? I flunked a religion test in 5th grade because of this.

[goldent]

41. Sounds like a tough test!

[In_The_Wind]

4. I believe that I will see my pets again when I no longer walk this earth.

Until then they are alive in my memories as they are gone but never forgotten.

[northoftheborder]

5. I have changed my mind over the years....

I didn't used to believe that our pets would be in heaven because they do not have souls, only humans have souls, as I believe it. However, in as much as our dear pets are really a part of our lives, our hearts, dearly beloved, then perhaps their spirits will inhabit the heavenly state with us..... There is no way to really know, but it helps us to think in this way to soothe our grief when our precious pets die. By the way, my brother also believes this --- and he is a lawyer!

[gopiscrap]

18. Interesting, I have always believed that they do

even though the Catholic education I have says no!

[democratisphere]

6. I know I will be reunited with all my pet cats and dogs in the afterlife.

I am very sorry for the loss of your dear 15 year old cat, I know your sadness and pain.

[gopiscrap]

7. Thank you and welcome to DU

[Warpy]

8. “If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.”

That's Will Rogers and I think it applies to cats, too.

No heaven would be worth the name without our companion animals.

[gopiscrap]

16. I like that!

[cbayer]

9. My condolences.

I have no opinion on your poll question, but wanted to take the opportunity to let you know that I am very sorry for you loss.

[skepticscott]

11. QED

[gopiscrap]

13. Thank you

he was the coolest pet I have ever had and as loving and gentle as you could imagine!

[cbayer]

15. Of course, pets often reflect the character and personality of their owners.

I am glad you had each other to love.

[gopiscrap]

17. thanks he was a crazy little guy

he would jump in the shower with me and just sit there and get all wet and wouldn't even care! He was also the most social cat I have ever had, he would always greet everybody who came in the condo!

[cbayer]

19. A cat that likes the shower!

Now, that's one special cat.

I have the great misfortune of having developed a serious cat allergy in my 20's.

I had 2 at the time and I tried everything, but I couldn't keep them.

It broke my heart and saddens me still that I can't pet other people's cats.

And the worst is that they seem to love me!

Do you have any other pets?

[gopiscrap]

24. Both my children love animals like I did as a kid

we used to live in a house (and now my son does.) at one time we had 32 pets (3 dogs, 3 cats, 2 ferrets, goldfish, a bird, a sugar glider and a flying squirrel and rabbit among others). Our former house is a literal graveyard of beloved pets and now our son's house has several buried there. Our son has our 16 year old wiener dog. Monday morning was the first time I was in my own home in 23 years that not a single living creature was with me. Our cat who died as a kitten would lay on his back and let the wiener dog gently take him by the neck and run all over the house with him. This cat would also play with the ferrets and rabbit.

[skepticscott]

10. This is not a theology question

It is a question about people's emotional need to believe certain things, reinforced by the current trendiness of regarding animals as four-legged humans. There is nothing else that would allow a "theologian" to deduce that dogs and cats go to "heaven" (even if they believed it existed), other than their needing to think that or hating to tell people otherwise.

And who would want every one of those flushed turtles and goldfish to end up in heaven?

[el_bryanto]

21. I'll bet you are a lot of fun at funerals. nt

[skepticscott]

27. Well, this isn't a funeral, now is it?

So I'll dare to be blunt and speak the unvarnished truth.

[el_bryanto]

28. As you see it. nt

[skepticscott]

34. I know you'd rather just get the last word in

than bring any facts and logical arguments to the discussion.

But try. Do you, does anyone, have any reason to think that dogs, cats, parakeets, gerbils and guppies join their former owners in "heaven" other than emotional neediness? What criteria does a "pet" have to meet to pass the pearly gates?

[el_bryanto]

37. I can tell what I believe, but I can't prove it

I believe that all things have both a spiritual side and a physical side; that humans have both a soul and a physical body (this is fairly ordinary doctrine), and that plants, animals, and so on have that as well. If Humans have a soul, why not a dog or a gerbil? The earth itself, I believe, has a spiritual aspect to it as well as the physical aspect.

I also believe that only Humans are capable of sinning (my faith doesn't believe in hell, but we do believe in sin). What could a dog or a gerbil do that would anger God?

Given that I believe that, I believe that other creations with a soul or a spirit go on to whatever would be heaven for them. And a beloved family pet, would probably want to be with the people who loved it.

There are some logistical problems with this as I'm sure you can be quick to point out (if there is a heaven for Mosquitos nobody would want to be anywhere near it for example) - but I believe that God can work those out.

I can't prove any of it. Flame away.

Bryant

[skepticscott]

45. And where did such elaborate and detailed beliefs come from?

Reason? Evidence? Careful study? Because you were told? Or, as suggested, just the emotional need to believe something comforting? If the latter, how is this any different the beliefs that god created the whole world and everything in it less than 10,000 years ago, or that homosexuality is an abomination?

And no need to flame...you've pretty much made my point for me.

[el_bryanto]

46. They are things I was taught,

but that's not why I believe them. I believe them because I prayed to God and felt the spiritual truth of them. I had a spiritual experience with the Divine. I can't prove that, but I can't deny it either.

Bryant

[skepticscott]

60. Unfortunately, most people won't grasp

that if you put that experience in anything but a religious framework, it would be taken as...odd...to say the least....

[el_bryanto]

61. No need to beat around the bush; it's less then a week since one of your fellow DU Atheists

suggested I was delusional. I certainly appreciate what you are trying to do; make religion ridiculous so that only an idiot or the delusional would admit to it. But I don't intend to play along.

Bryant

[skepticscott]

62. Well, religion being ridiculous

would certainly not be because I made it so. But substitute "Napoleon" or "George Washington" or "Genghis Khan" for "god" or "the divine" in your statement, and you might start to get the point. Hearing voices from most people gets you looked at funny, among other things. But saying you heard the voice or the "power" of "god" or felt his "love" and then did what it told you gets you praise and admiration. Go figure.

[gopiscrap]

49. Cool answer

it kinda described the way I feel.

[rug]

30. Lol!

The sound of subdued sobbing punctuated with random snarls.

[okasha]

33. Somebody left the attic door open.

[skepticscott]

35. It's sad when you don't even have intellectual puffery

to fall back on any more. Let alone anything of substance. But you're fitting right in with the rest of the religionistsas, so I expect you're happy.

[hrmjustin]

40. religionistsas?

[skepticscott]

43. Would you care

to elaborate on that?

[hrmjustin]

50. Why use that term?

I find it insulting.

[skepticscott]

57. Well, as you've made clear

you believe all sorts of things for no reasons that make sense, no reasons you can justify. Why should we think your belief that this is "insulting" to be any different?

[hrmjustin]

58. Never mind. I am done.

[Igel]

25. Their owners, mostly.

Not all of them. Some would just assume see them assimilated by the soil and plants.

[libodem]

22. Sorry for your loss

That is a long time to have a companion. I think they wait for us on the otherside. If there is one.

[el_bryanto]

23. I believe that pets do go - on the grounds that heaven wouldn't be heaven

without their companionship. I have other reasons too but they are specific to my faith so won't go into them.

Bryant

[Igel]

26. Sorry.

I believe there's a heaven, but that the dead don't go there. My father, my sister-in-law, no difference between them and cats or guppies in this regard.

(Then again I do believe in the hope of the resurrection. Now, will cats or guppies be resurrected? No clue.)

[mike_c]

29. I wanted to say "no," but that's an insufficient response...

...so I chose "pass."

Your premise is flawed from the beginning. Heaven is a myth. It doesn't exist. Therefore your pets will not join you there, not because they are not welcome, but because you're wasting your time imagining it.

My dearest old lady Siamese is sitting on my lap as I type this. I truly wish you some relief, my friend.

[840high]

31. Yes they can.

[okasha]

32. Pagans don't believe

in the Christian version of Heaven, but we (Native American variety and most Wiccans and Druids) do believe that all living beings have spirits and that they all pass over to the Other Side Camp. Those who attain great wisdom have the option to remain or may return to teach others. Those of us who still have some learning to do return to the Red Road here on Mother Earth.

I am deeply sorry that you and your beloved cat have been separated for a time, but I do believe you will see and know each other again.

[gopiscrap]

36. what a cool answer thank you!

[okasha]

38. You're most welcome.

[uriel1972]

39. hold on...

only for those who believe in heaven, or the concept of heaven? I believe the concept of heaven exists, but not the actuality. However from the context, you probably don't want to hear from me.

[LostOne4Ever]

42. I don't believe in souls or an afterlife (so I passed on your poll)

But if I am wrong, I would imagine that animal also have souls and go to the same afterlife.

I say this based on my observation that many people who do believe in them tend to equate them with emotion. Anyone who has had a pet dog/cat/etc. knows that they are thinking feeling beings. They feel joy, sadness, pain, and emotion just like we do. I have heard of Chimps that were taught sign language telling their trainer of feelings of sadness and empathy when said trainers infant child died. Dogs jumping and licking you out of excitement. Elephants are known to cry out of sadness and pain.

Further, many people say that art is a mirror to the soul and I have heard of Dogs and elephants who paint pictures so that could be seen as further evidence that if there is a soul that they probably have one as well.

So based on this I would assume they would have souls if it turns out they exist. Further, if they have souls and there is an afterlife (and assuming we go there) it would make sense in my mind that they get to go there as well.

I am sorry for your loss. If it makes you feel better, whether or not their is an afterlife your pet will always exist in your memories and nothing can take that away.

[Evoman]

47. no such thing as soul, no such thing called Heaven!

When they or we die, hungry little worms have a feast. Welcome to Chez Evoman...enjoy the flesh. Remember to tip your worm waitress.

[Brettongarcia]

48. Was he a good cat, or a "bad cat"?

[gopiscrap]

51. He was an incredible cat

he was the most loving and social cat I have ever encountered!

[brewens]

52. I don't know but I still have dreams about my little buddies I've had over the years.

Sometimes I wake up kind of sad but it's like I got to see them again in a way. We can make life heaven for them here, I know that for sure. I sure try hard anyway.

[gopiscrap]

54. Me too, Stewie was probably the most spoiled pet we've ever had

the kids used to say that Stewie was the favored child!

[Shrike47]

53. I don't believe in heaven or an afterlife, but if there is a heaven, it has what you most love in it

If it's your pet, he's there. And it's beautiful, sort of like Yosemite sans crowds. Or maybe Tahiti, depending.

[JNelson6563]

55. Not a believer but when I was

I certainly believed pets would join us in heaven or it wouldn't be heaven.

I hope you don't feel that I didn't respect your wishes by chiming in, I certainly meant no disrespect.

Lastly, I am so very sorry to hear about your cat. 15 years is a long time for a cat. I am glad for you that you got to enjoy him for so long but understand how much such a loss can hurt too. I've lost a few pets and know that it really is the loss of a family member.

Hugs.

Julie

[gopiscrap]

56. Thanks Julie

I don't mind at all!

[gopiscrap]

63. Hey I just noticed you're from T.C. Stay warm

I spent 12 days there singing at some churches in Jan and Feb of 2011

[JNelson6563]

64. If you come again, let me know!

Try and make it in the summer if you can, so much nicer!

Julie

[2naSalit]

59. I had to choose PASS

Because, as I understand it, all living things have what might be described a s a soul (espiritu) which the best way to articulate the concept would be as life force, ie energy. the laws of thermodynamics could help this concept along.

So considering such a thing as life force in any being regardless of species all living things would have "souls" and that when they "leave" as we perceive it, the life force transforms into something, not necessarily what it was as we knew it while "with us". But I also think that the energy of thought is an important factor and part of the life force of that which we knew as a being stays with us as the energy that manifests as love, affectionate remembrance, or the host of negative senses. So the energy of the remembrance is the energy that stays with us after the passing of the one we knew.

I also understand that in the transformation process upon what we call death, the energy becomes part of what has been described as the "universal mind" or an energy field that is all around us though we pay liittle attention to it unless there is some interaction with it as in daydreams, or sleeping dreams, or astral projection, ghosts, a strong memory or alter states as in deep meditation or even insanity.

So in a sense, Stewie is always with you now and when you pass. Will you recognize each other? Maybe, and that would be interesting to find out if the concept of the universal mind is correct. But then, maybe Stewie was the reincarnation of someone you've known in some past incarnation of you and you both came back in a relationship where you could share the loving energy here because one of you needed that sharing while in the physical world this time around.

It's hard to be in the physical when there is so much attachment to one who has gone beyond the physical... I know the feeling all too well, and I share your grief.

take heart, the energy of the remembrance will always be there and so will Stewie because of that.