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cbayer

(146,218 posts)
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 01:26 PM Mar 2014

Spiritual but Not Religious an Oxymoron?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/candy-gunther-brown-phd/spiritual-but-not-religio_1_b_5054627.html



Candy Gunther Brown, Ph.D.
Author, 'Healing Gods' and 'Testing Prayer'

Posted: 03/31/2014 12:22 pm EDT Updated: 03/31/2014 12:59 pm EDT Print Article

"Religion" has become a bad word for many Americans. This does not necessarily mean that Americans have become any less religious. Instead, many people have come to prefer different language to describe their religious beliefs and practices. This is because the word "religion" has accumulated negative connotations. Americans tend to equate religion with Christianity. And especially, people think of guilt-inducing proscriptions on behavior, seemingly arbitrary rules, hell-fire preaching on sin and judgment, unreasoning insistence on dogma and doctrinal orthodoxy, divisive sectarianism, and aggressive proselytizing. Relatively few people want to be religious if that is all it means. Many people may prefer to describe themselves as interested in "spirituality" or the "sacred." Even many Christians dislike the word religion, and insist that Christianity is not about religion, but "relationship" with God.

Even so, public-opinion polls show that a majority of Americans self-identify as both spiritual and religious. According to one large-scale survey reported in 2008, three-fourths (74 percent) of Americans describe themselves as very or somewhat "religious." Two-thirds (66 percent) identify as "spiritual." And more than half (57 percent) accept both labels. Although 20 percent of Americans responded to a 2012 poll by declining to identify with a specific religious institution, 68 percent of the religiously unaffiliated believe in God, and 37 percent describe themselves as "spiritual, but not religious." Two-thirds of religious "Nones" affirm metaphysical or paranormal beliefs, such as the existence of nonmaterial energies, angels and demons, or the possibility of psychic communication.

Just how different are religion and spirituality? Some people use the term spirituality to denote an individual's private seeking after sacred meaning untethered to public adherence to traditional religious institutions, doctrines, creeds or rituals. Yet, religion and spirituality fulfill many of the same functions, for instance, affirming a person's place in the cosmos and offering a sense of purpose, meaning, and hope. It may be more useful, for analytic purposes, to think of spirituality as one way of being and talking about being religious, rather than as something distinct from religion.

What then is religion? The term has been defined in myriad ways. Many scholars prefer functional to substantive definitions of religion -- not just checking off a list of distinguishing characteristics such as belief in a deity, but observing how religions function, for instance to set apart the sacred from the profane, grapple with ultimate problems of human life, or give ultimate explanations of the world.

more at link
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Spiritual but Not Religious an Oxymoron? (Original Post) cbayer Mar 2014 OP
depends how one defines spiritual. Deep13 Mar 2014 #1
I think the article points out that it is much more complex than that. cbayer Mar 2014 #2
Of course it does skepticscott Mar 2014 #3
My thoughts exactly. silverweb Mar 2014 #14
"Spiritual" is a word with diaphanous meaning. immoderate Mar 2014 #9
creates a danger of the fallacy of equivocation... Deep13 Mar 2014 #32
One doesn't need religion pscot Mar 2014 #4
Perhaps for some, religion is the right kind of mushroom. cbayer Mar 2014 #5
Transcendence is central to Zen pscot Mar 2014 #6
And I think that is why many may call themselves spiritual but not religious. cbayer Mar 2014 #7
Indeed pscot Mar 2014 #8
Many paths, pscot. Many paths. cbayer Mar 2014 #10
Poetry can be spiritual. I always found this so, in a sense. pinto Mar 2014 #13
One of my favorites as well. cbayer Mar 2014 #15
This message was self-deleted by its author pinto Mar 2014 #30
Was always fascinated with dervish, wondering where they "went". Or what it meant to them. pinto Mar 2014 #16
To me, "spiritual" = "metaphysical." Maedhros Mar 2014 #11
I think your definition of religion is one endorsed by many. cbayer Mar 2014 #12
My personal objection to religion? Maedhros Mar 2014 #17
Religionist - a term that focuses on zealots, not to cbayer Mar 2014 #18
Absolutely. I have great respect for a great number of religious people in my life. Maedhros Mar 2014 #19
"Just because I don't follow their path to enlightenment does not make their paths invalid." cbayer Mar 2014 #20
Likewise! Maedhros Mar 2014 #21
YES WE SHOULD!!! cbayer Mar 2014 #22
The fact that there are many different paths skepticscott Mar 2014 #23
Clearly. However, I am in no position to tell someone else what is and is not a valid path Maedhros Mar 2014 #24
And yet you are so deep into that deference skepticscott Mar 2014 #25
I'm not really following your line of thought. Maedhros Mar 2014 #28
As I said, you're very deep into the deference skepticscott Mar 2014 #31
What the hell are you talking about? Maedhros Apr 2014 #35
You said on the one hand skepticscott Apr 2014 #37
You may want to revise how you interact with people on the Internet. Maedhros Apr 2014 #38
Yes, I'm well aware skepticscott Apr 2014 #40
I'm an atheist, you fool. Maedhros Apr 2014 #43
As I said skepticscott Apr 2014 #45
Post removed Post removed Apr 2014 #46
And the bogus claim that "all paths are equal" skepticscott Apr 2014 #48
In the space of one short sub thread skepticscott Apr 2014 #49
I wasn't supporting the Mormon Church. Maedhros Apr 2014 #44
The Mormon church skepticscott Apr 2014 #47
What do you think about the Hobby Lobby case? n/t trotsky Apr 2014 #33
It's ridiculous. One's religious beliefs cannot exempt one from the law.[n/t] Maedhros Apr 2014 #34
Ah, I see. trotsky Apr 2014 #36
I was speaking of my own beliefs with regard to spritual matters. Maedhros Apr 2014 #39
Yep, clearly you weren't thinking of that. trotsky Apr 2014 #41
Hey - I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt because of your user name, Maedhros Apr 2014 #42
It's an insult to challenge your thinking? trotsky Apr 2014 #50
Apparently skepticscott Apr 2014 #51
One person's spirituality. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2014 #26
Seems fine to me. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2014 #27
I like the distinctions you make an definitions you use. cbayer Mar 2014 #29

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
1. depends how one defines spiritual.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 01:28 PM
Mar 2014

If one does not mean literally a connection with spirits, then it avoids being oxymoronic.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
2. I think the article points out that it is much more complex than that.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 01:30 PM
Mar 2014

What people mean when they describe themselves as spiritual can vary tremendously.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
3. Of course it does
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 01:32 PM
Mar 2014

Which is why the question is obviously not an oxymoron. Obvious to anyone without column inches to fill on Huff Post, that is.

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
9. "Spiritual" is a word with diaphanous meaning.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 01:48 PM
Mar 2014


"Religion" is not all that settled, either. They don't mean much at all out of context, which makes this exercise.

--imm

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
32. creates a danger of the fallacy of equivocation...
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 10:52 PM
Mar 2014

where one can square an argument by using two different definitions for the same term.

pscot

(21,023 posts)
4. One doesn't need religion
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 01:33 PM
Mar 2014

to have a transcendant experience. The right kind of mushrooms can get you there.

pscot

(21,023 posts)
6. Transcendence is central to Zen
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 01:43 PM
Mar 2014

Prayer and meditation can be efficacious if done properly. Dervishes spin. There are many paths. Organized religion seldom speaks of these matters.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
7. And I think that is why many may call themselves spiritual but not religious.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 01:46 PM
Mar 2014

Transcendance may or may not involve religious concepts or a notion of god.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
13. Poetry can be spiritual. I always found this so, in a sense.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 02:48 PM
Mar 2014

The Road Not Taken

By Robert Frost

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
15. One of my favorites as well.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 02:57 PM
Mar 2014

I remember the first time I read it and how it changed my perspective.

Response to cbayer (Reply #15)

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
11. To me, "spiritual" = "metaphysical."
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 02:34 PM
Mar 2014

Religion implies organized worship, which I don't buy into.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
12. I think your definition of religion is one endorsed by many.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 02:37 PM
Mar 2014

Many are leaving the church but still describing themselves as believers or some variant of believers.

And metaphysical may or may not include a concept of god.

So many different ways, aren't there.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
17. My personal objection to religion?
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 03:05 PM
Mar 2014

The concepts are often outstanding and truly worthy of consideration and implementation. Yet religionists insist on focusing on the attached mythology - creation, divinity of Jesus, etc. - for which I have no time.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
18. Religionist - a term that focuses on zealots, not to
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 03:12 PM
Mar 2014

your run of the mill believer.

Some religious people focus on the attached mythology, while others focus on what they see as the primary messages of peace, social justice and civil rights. Some do this within organizations, while others do not.

Sounds like your problem is with the zealots who function primarily within organizations, which describes the religious right pretty well.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
19. Absolutely. I have great respect for a great number of religious people in my life.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 03:48 PM
Mar 2014

Just because I don't follow their path to enlightenment does not make their paths invalid.

I grew up in the Catholic Church, and by the time I left high school I had pretty much figured out that Catholic dogma and catechism were not for me. But I still have great respect for many Catholics. I remember way back in the 90's I was canvassing door-to-door for the HRC in support of ENDA and the Ryan White Care Act. One of the best experiences I had came when I knocked on a convent door, and I had a great discussion of LGBT rights with the nun who answered. The convent contributed to the campaign as well.

Likewise, my daughter's extended family on her mother's side is Mormon. Great people, all of them. I don't agree with their views on many things, but I respect their commitment to their faith and their family.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
20. "Just because I don't follow their path to enlightenment does not make their paths invalid."
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 04:09 PM
Mar 2014

Could not agree more and very well said.

Love your story about meeting with the nun. During the height of the epidemic I worked with many agencies in New Orleans. It is a very catholic city, but many in the church were deeply involved in the projects. I don't think we could have done what we did do without them.

I also have an increasingly diverse family structure which now involves a Muslim son-in-law and his family. This is the sort of thing that will lead to the most profound changes.

It is a pleasure to talk with you Maedhros. Glad you are engaging in the Religion group.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
23. The fact that there are many different paths
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 06:03 PM
Mar 2014

Does not necessarily mean that all paths are equally valid, or that some are not simply wrong. That fact that someone calls something their "path" or their "faith" or their "belief" does not automatically entitle it to respect, deference or immunity from criticism.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
24. Clearly. However, I am in no position to tell someone else what is and is not a valid path
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 06:18 PM
Mar 2014

to enlightenment.

What I respect is the effort to better one's self and to seek answers to the big questions. I don't respect those who use their beliefs as a bludgeon to make others conform.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
25. And yet you are so deep into that deference
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 06:41 PM
Mar 2014

that you don't even recognize it. The Mormon Church has used their beliefs as a bludgeon to make others conform for a very long time. Those who belong to and support it are complicit in that, as are those who take the attitude "No Mormons I know are like that" to defend their praise of that "different path".

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
28. I'm not really following your line of thought.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 06:52 PM
Mar 2014

I certainly don't think you are in a position to issue statements about my state of mind based upon a few forum posts.

No faith on Earth is free of warts, and I recognize that the Catholic and Mormon churches have their blind spots. As with politics, I try to praise what I find of value, and reject what I find to be useless or harmful.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
31. As I said, you're very deep into the deference
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 09:04 PM
Mar 2014

Why else would one characterize the deliberate and calculated attempt to deprive one group of humans of their equal rights as a "blind spot"? Those of us in the real world, unblinded by the need for complete relativism, call it blatant bigotry and hatred.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
35. What the hell are you talking about?
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 01:50 AM
Apr 2014

You are a very confused person, and seem to be picking a fight where one doesn't exist.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
37. You said on the one hand
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 11:53 AM
Apr 2014

that you respect Mormons' commitment to their faith, and on the other hand that you "don't respect those who use their beliefs as a bludgeon to make others conform". Well, as pointed out here, as as everyone paying attention knows, that's exactly what Mormons do with their faith. And their wealth and political power. The Mormon church has fought hard to make same sex marriage illegal. And ask your smiling, well-scrubbed Mormon friends how their church treats people who leave it.

If anyone is confused here, it isn't me.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
38. You may want to revise how you interact with people on the Internet.
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 12:36 PM
Apr 2014

Last edited Tue Apr 1, 2014, 02:10 PM - Edit history (1)

Your current approach is off-putting.

/ignore.

ON EDIT: Those Mormons you were denigrating are my family. You know nothing about them, and nothing about me. To assume that I am condoning actions of the Mormon Church by showing respect for the beliefs of my family members is asinine. Not every individual of a church can be painted with the same broad brush. Do you believe that all Muslims are bomb-throwing caricatures? Every Catholic is a child molester? Does expressing respect for individual Muslims or Catholics automatically mean that I condone terrorism or pedophilia?

I'll answer that for you - NO!

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
40. Yes, I'm well aware
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 01:51 PM
Apr 2014

that people hate to have their cherished views debunked, and would rather stick their fingers in their ears than hear uncomfortable truths.

You'll fit in well among the religionistas here.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
45. As I said
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 03:39 PM
Apr 2014

You'll fit in well among the religionistas here. They include plenty of "thank you god that I'm not like other atheists" atheists among their ranks.

Response to skepticscott (Reply #45)

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
48. And the bogus claim that "all paths are equal"
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 03:50 PM
Apr 2014

is part of that discussion. I know you'd like to pretend otherwise, but it's a fact.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
49. In the space of one short sub thread
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 04:48 PM
Apr 2014

You've managed to call me confused, obnoxious, off-putting, asinine, a fool, an arrogant ass and a threadcrapper. All without bothering once to address the substantive points I raised about what sorts of things should be entitled to "tolerance".

I would certainly hate to see what you would have called me if you WERE being obnoxious.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
44. I wasn't supporting the Mormon Church.
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 03:19 PM
Apr 2014

In fact, I specifically mentioned that I don't agree with their doctrine.

I was speaking of specific individuals, namely my daughter's grandmother, aunts, uncles and cousins. I respect them - they are good people, and their commitment to their faith is part of who they are. Should I hate them because of it?

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
47. The Mormon church
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 03:48 PM
Apr 2014

is a fundamentally bigoted, sexist and homophobic organization, that has fought hard against equal rights for gays and lesbians. No progressive worthy of the name should be respecting or "tolerant" of that. As I expected, you've trotted out the "yeah, but no Mormons I know are like that..it's all those other Mormons, related to other people" meme, but those who support the Mormon church, especially with their tithe, as all proper Mormons do, are directly complicit in its bigotry and disrespect for other faiths.

And please, spare me the bluster about "ignore". It's obvious you don't mean it.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
36. Ah, I see.
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 09:52 AM
Apr 2014

I just found it interesting that you basically summed up their legal case: they shouldn't be forced to honor someone else's beliefs. I mean, if the owner truly believes that anything which interferes with the implantation of the embryo in the uterus is murder, who are we to tell him he's wrong? Can you prove he's wrong?

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
39. I was speaking of my own beliefs with regard to spritual matters.
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 12:38 PM
Apr 2014

I was not even thinking of the Hobby Lobby case.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
42. Hey - I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt because of your user name,
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 03:07 PM
Apr 2014

but really, what's with the dog pile? You're the second person to insult me because I dared to post in favor of religious tolerance. Do you people swarm every thread on religion and spirituality to harangue and attack anyone who posts? I made ABSOLUTELY NO STATEMENT WHATSOEVER in support of Hobby Lobby, and in fact stated unequivocally that their case is ridiculous.

You don't know anything about me, or of what I am thinking. Go pick a fight with someone else.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
50. It's an insult to challenge your thinking?
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 05:29 PM
Apr 2014

That's strange.

I just found it odd that what you said about not forcing beliefs on someone else is pretty much Hobby Lobby's argument. But you declared it's stupid when they do it. Seems like a bit of a double standard.

The only one fighting and getting belligerent is you, I'm afraid. If you'd like to clarify your contradictory positions, feel free. Or not, doesn't bother me.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
51. Apparently
Tue Apr 1, 2014, 07:08 PM
Apr 2014

it WAS an insult to challenge his entrenched thinking. But our friend was apparently too tolerant for his own good.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
26. One person's spirituality.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 06:45 PM
Mar 2014



Albert Einstein said "I want to know the thoughts of God."
He thought he could learn the nature of God by studying the laws of physics. Like Baruch Spinoza.
A lot of scientists find spirituality through the study of physics/chemistry.

As Giordano Bruno allegedly said, "Your god is too small" to include the majesty of the galaxies and the stars.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
27. Seems fine to me.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 06:52 PM
Mar 2014

I'm pretty much in the camp of folks in your second to last paragraph - I associate 'religion' with a defined set of precepts, scriptures, rituals, services, organization, etc, but spirituality can simply be your own philosophical and/or supernatural beliefs, which need not have any particular adherence to some more defined orthodoxy. So proclaiming oneself 'spiritual but not religious' seems like a reasonable category for such polls.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
29. I like the distinctions you make an definitions you use.
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 06:59 PM
Mar 2014

One can be spiritual/not religious, religious/not spiritual, religious/spiritual or not religious/not spiritual.

And even within any of those categories, each individual is different.

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