Baphomet statue for Oaklahoma Statehouse just about ready.

[AtheistCrusader]

http://www.vice.com/read/heres-the-first-look-at-the-new-satanic-monument-being-built-for-oklahomas-statehouse


That looks pretty bad-ass. Nice.

[rug]

1. "Lucien Greaves" is a self-admitted sham.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=106049

[AtheistCrusader]

2. Doesn't matter. The theory is legally valid.

If they must allow one, they must allow the other. Perhaps he was just infiltrating that atheist group? Who is to say? Maybe he's converted?

Can't prove it.

[rug]

3. Actually it does. Fraud, starting with his name, isn't that hard to prove.

[AtheistCrusader]

7. Let me know when a jury convicts him of something.

[rug]

8. For a permit, it's a civil standard, not a criminal one.

[AtheistCrusader]

9. Oh well. Sometimes I park where no cars are suppose to park.

Shit happens.

[rug]

11. That's not criminal either.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Right.

[Humanist_Activist]

5. And, is there a point here, I mean, unless the Statue is fake and he took money...

in an attempt to defraud, for example, not building the statue and running away with the money, what is the sham?

[rug]

10. The religion under which he's seeking the permit, is a self-admiited sham.

They may as well seek to put up a statue of Ricky Gervais.

[Humanist_Activist]

12. All religions are shams, his is just honest, do you have a point? n/t

[rug]

13. Even as a matter of pure taxonomy, that's utter nonsense. Do you have a book? n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

14. OK, so what religions are true? Do you have a list?

If you are instead wondering how many people are sincere, I'm sure a number of those Satanists are completely sincere in their beliefs. If your argument is that they shouldn't be allowed to erect the statue because their religion is somehow made up, or nontraditional, then a number of new religions are equally as invalid. Are you prepared to make such an assessment, or even better, allow the government to make such an assessment?

[rug]

15. The thread is specifically about Lucien Greaves' sham.

The post was specifically about your ludicrous comment.

Nice footwork though.

[Humanist_Activist]

19. I don't care, he's making a point, and a good one, the government can't distinguish...

between a, as you call it, sham and a "legitimate" religion, nor should it, when it comes to representation or equal rights.

[cleanhippie]

23. Speaking of footwork...

Look at those moves, dancing away from showing what religions aren't a sham.

[rug]

53. I can't. There's a little round thing rolling around the floor. Did it come from you?

[AtheistCrusader]

20. Given that all religions are created by, and asserted by man

I fail to understand why you seem so dead set against us who view them ALL as shams.


Ok, so you don't agree that they are all shams. Fine. Can you at least understand why we view them all as such? Do you think we are exaggerating, or are we perhaps being dead honest with you?

[rug]

21. Why do you think I'm dead set against "us"?

I understand why you view them that way but it's sloppy. You may be dead honest in your opinion but that doesn't preclude exaggeration.

Sometimes I feel like I'm listening to a Wagnerian opera.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. But... those are amazing..

No exaggeration: I view every human claim ever made, of a divine anything, as a sham.

No more or less complex than that. What's your gut reaction of scientology? If it is that it was invented by a sci-fi author as a rhetorical trick, or possibly as a scam... Then you know how I feel about every single religion.

No exaggeration.

[rug]

25. I take you at your word.

But even with that, they're all far from the same.

For instance, we've both heard repeatedly that the only difference between a cult and a religion is age.

There's some truth to that but it's sloppy to go fram that to all religions are cults (or shams).

I prefer to examine the beliefs, among other things. To take your Scientology example, can you really not distinguish between the claims of volcanoes, thetans and Teegeeack on the one hand, and the claims of the Trinity, reincarnation and Yawm al-Qiyāmah on the other?

I do but I'm not going to get into it at the moment.

Note, I did not say any of those claims are true or false. I'm going to sleep now but, if after examining those claims and the rationales and mechanics and implications of each, you conclude they are all equally based on shams, I'd be tempted to conclude there was some flat thinking going on.

No offense.

Catch up to you later.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. None taken.

I'm sure some find beauty in the idea of the trinity/reincarnation. I can understand that as a hypothetical. But I don't find any in it. Not only do I flat out not believe any of it, I find the entire thing morally hazardous.

The same defensive mechanism that helped me judge scientology as nonsense as a teen, graduating high school, when some relative I can't even remember sent me a dianetics book, is the precise same mechanism that evaluated and rejected every single faith I have encountered in my life. Starting with long dead ideas that humanity has now classified as mythology, to current faiths in play, with adherents in the hundreds of millions, to billions.

I don't find any more intrinsic truth or beauty under the hood whenever I examine any of these faiths.


Perhaps I am broken on some level, and unable to perceive, the same way a color blind person may fail to distinguish between red or green (depending on the form of colorblindness, of course)...

But I don't think so.


Anyhoo, sleep well, talk to you tomorrow most likely.

[rug]

54. In evluating a religious claim, I'm more interested in its internal coherence than its truth.

Another one I found lacking years ago was the Divine Light Mission of Guru Maharaj Ji, the 13 year old "Perfect Master". Internally, I saw no coherence in it.

In contrast, I find ISKCON, the "Hare Krishnas", to possess a high level of consistency and internal cohesion. I don't believe that either, for many other reasons, but distinguishing one as a sham, i.e., a deliberate intentional fraud, from the other is not difficult.

Not everything with a tail is a pig.

[uriel1972]

32. No I can't distinguish between the claims of the Scientologists and other religions...

Some may have greater aesthetic appeal to me than others, but all, in the end are equally unsatisfying at describing the universe in which we live.

In other words whether or not they were 'made up' to bilk people or describe the universe, they are wrong, untrue and false. To categorise some of them as 'true' religion and others as 'sham' faiths is missing the point.

[rug]

55. I ask you this: can you distinguish fascism from national socialism, nationalism from patriotism,

totalitarianism from dictatorship?

Every corporate human activity, including religion, has nuance.

[CJCRANE]

35. It's all metaphor

whether it's the Trimurti, the Tao, the Seven, Mount Olympus etc.

Some metaphors may have more value than others, but that's a personal decision.

I see value in religion, as long as each person recognizes that their own path is just one among many.

[uriel1972]

45. If only all believers would see it that way...

The thing is, one of the big reasons they are called believers, is that they believe. Often they believe that their religion is the revealed truth, that is the world is exactly as their favourite codex states. They don't see it as metaphor, but actual, literal truth.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

49. But that's Norse mythology! Wotan and Fricka and Fasolt and Fafner and all that.

That's not Christian either.

I know this because I saw Das Rheingold last week. Wotan and Fricka go to Valhalla. First installment in the Ring Cycle, which has four parts.

[rug]

52. I'm going to ATA and demand that soundtracks be enabled In Religion Group posts.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

56. Cool piece of music. One of the world's best orchestras too!!

[AtheistCrusader]

57. I've sat through that a couple times on Channel 9.

It's pretty awesome.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. I'd pay to see that.

[rug]

18. I'd wait for hulu.

[edhopper]

37. just wondering

would you feel the same if it was Mormon or Scientology.
Two religions started as shams.

Wouldn't statues to L. Ron Hubbard or Joseph Smith be equally about fraud?

[rug]

44. In Scientology there's a closer parallel.

I believe there's a famous quote by Hubbard floating around that a quick way to get rich is to start a religion.

With Joseph Smith, I don't think there's any such explicit admission. Events in his life suggest it but an admission, as in the cases of Greaves and Hubbard, is very strong evidence.

[edhopper]

58. Ao you would feel the same about a statue

for Hubbard?

(though the Smith scam is obvious, I get your distinction)

[rug]

59. Yes. I would not object to a Wanted poster.

[edhopper]

60. Sarah Silverman had a funny line about Scientology

It's such a new, funky religion that the founder is known as L. Ron because there already was a "Ron Hubbard" in the Writers Guild.

[LostOne4Ever]

4. This is going to be awesome

I can taste the sweet sweet tears of the fundamentalist already

[AtheistCrusader]

6. I'm just dissapointed that

there doesn't seem to be a FSM statue in the works yet.

[uriel1972]

24. Yeeeesssssss!!!... nt

[Jerry442]

26. This has got to be a metaphor for something.

Not quite sure what.

Still, he’s not taking any chances. The Temple is building a mold of the sculpture so they can pop these things out like evil, terribly expensive action figures whenever they need a new one.

“Depending on our insurance policy,” Greaves said, “we may be able to cast two from the destruction of one, expediting our arrival to the next battleground.”

[okasha]

27. "Baphomet" was the invention of Alistair Crowley.

The word is a medieval European corruption of Muhammad.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Consistent with the rest of the religions.

[Warren Stupidity]

34. Is there a point being made?

'cause if there is it escapes me.

[Humanist_Activist]

61. Actually its older than that.

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet

[okasha]

62. Thanks.

I'd forgotten about Levi, had the Rider-Waite Tarot Devil in mind.

[struggle4progress]

30. "If you can do something I find stupid and offensive, then surely I can do something you'll find

even stupider and more offensive!"

What's really needed is some creative thinking other people can support -- Pastafarian homeless advocates regularly showing up at the courthouse to offer street people free mac and cheese lunches from an umbrella cart, for example

[uriel1972]

31. I would support that...

I also support the statue of Baphomet, if Christian monument goes up. The point is, why should the Christian religion be priviliged over others? To do so is the most offensive act being paraded here.

[Warren Stupidity]

33. Why is this statue "stupider and more offensive"?

[struggle4progress]

39. My post merely refers to a certain style of engagement

[Act_of_Reparation]

50. The important part is you've found a way to feel superior to both parties.

All that self-congratulatory backslapping must get tiring.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. It's really very simple.

There's no way that baphomet statue is going up. Not at the statehouse. They will pull ALL religious iconography/statues/monuments before that happens.

Because that's the only legal leg they have to stand on.

But of course, you knew full well that was the point of this exercise.

[struggle4progress]

40. Perhaps you should actually read the article you linked in the OP:

... Once it’s done, they plan to put it in front of the Oklahoma Statehouse regardless of the the Capitol Preservation Commission’s ongoing battle against the ACLU ...

So Satanic Temple apparently plans to install it with or without permission. And they apparently believe they might be able to insure it so that any damage claims would pay for two more statues:

... “Depending on our insurance policy,” Greaves said, “we may be able to cast two from the destruction of one, expediting our arrival to the next battleground” ...

your link

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Oh my, are they being provocative?

Tee hee.


And look at you, taking them seriously that they would or could install it without being thrown in jail in that context.
Oh my.


Well, you know those Satanists, all magical and powerful, I suppose they can just do whatever they want whenever they want and no one can stop them with a badge or a gun. Everything they say comes true, because hey, they have the POWER OF SATAN BEHIND THEM right?

Yawn.

[struggle4progress]

42. How old are you? Perhaps this is a generational thing. At one time, over forty years,

my best friend was a LaVey enthusiast, so we read a bunch of that stuff and discussed it thoroughly. At the time, my friends and I thought it very edgy to try to provoke people, and we got very good at it, though I never really thought LaVey-style provocation was as much fun as flowerchild-style:

There are uses of provocation, of course, but it takes real skill to use the technique well: Clarice Campbell's letters (Civil Rights Chronicle) provide some interesting examples

But just trying to out-stupid others is a waste of time IMO

[AtheistCrusader]

43. I do like to blow angry drivers kisses in traffic.

It seems to have a much stronger apoplectic effect on them, than a simple middle finger does.

I am in my 30's.


Now, to drop the sarcasm for a minute, the 'satanists' efforts here are clearly a rhetorical foil. I am not surprised or shocked that they might make dumb provocative statements. I'm surprised they are even making the statue. I guess they had to, since they received donations for it...

My prediction is, there is no chance it gets installed. The 'atheist bench' monument did get installed. I was a little surprised there, because I thought the bluff would be called, and it wasn't. They took the other tack and just allowed all comers, for now. Wait till someone shows up with the goat thing. That will change in a big hurry.

[Rob H.]

46. Way to cherry-pick and leave out the parts that don't support your argument

Emphases added by me.

The statue is a direct response to the state's installation of a Ten Commandments monument outside the Capitol in 2012. State Representative Mike Ritze paid for the controversial statue with his own money, and therefore it was considered a donation and OK to place on government property. Following that line of reasoning, the Satanic Temple submitted a formal application for their monument.

As Trait Thompson of the Oklahoma Capitol Preservation Commission told CNN last December, “Individuals and groups are free to apply to place a monument or statue or artwork.” The applications are then approved or rejected by the Commission. Unfortunately, the state has placed a halt on issuing permits for any other monuments until a lawsuit filed by the ACLU against Ritze’s Commandments monument is settled.

...

The Temple estimates that the monument will be finished in a few months. Once it’s done, they plan to put it in front of the Oklahoma Statehouse regardless of the the Capitol Preservation Commission’s ongoing battle against the ACLU. They feel this should be allowed because their application was submitted before all the hullabaloo over Ritze’s monument.

“After all,” Greaves told me, “the Ten Commandments still stand at the State Capitol. We are fully willing to place our monument at the Capitol, even while the ACLU suit is fought, with the understanding that a judgment against the Ten Commandments will have ramifications for our monument as well, likely resulting in the removal of both.”

[cbayer]

38. It is appropriately hideous and I hope it effectively stops the installation of the 10 commandments.

[Humanist_Activist]

47. I will say, from an aesthetic or artistic perspective, it doesn't look half bad, complements...

to the designer and artist of the statue.

Kinda looks like a call back and combination of modern and classical aesthetics, its too early to tell but it may have some of that "hyperrealism" of renaissance sculptures as well.

[cbayer]

48. Well, that's art isn't it?

One person's aesthetically pleasing piece is another's idea of hideous.

And that is what makes it all so fascinating.

[mikeysnot]

51. Nice, I want one for my front garden!