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cbayer

(146,218 posts)
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 12:15 PM Jan 2015

The Case Against In-Your-Face Atheism

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/04/the-case-against-in-your-face-atheism.html

SALES STRATEGY
01.04.15

An atheist counsels his fellow non-believers on how not to talk to people of faith.

When I began my blog on the Atheist Channel of Patheos, I thought I’d be able to show how someone can live a meaningful life without religious belief. Instead, I spend much of my time criticizing my fellow atheists. While I agree with the goal of making atheism a socially and politically acceptable movement, there is a type of “firebrand atheism” that I believe is hindering its progress.

The president of American Atheists, David Silverman, defines firebrand atheism as simply telling the truth about religion, with the emphasis on the telling. He says we should make clear that it’s religious beliefs we’re attacking, not the person. He says, “I’m not attacking humans; I’m attacking those humans’ silly beliefs.”

That word “silly” is the problem, as is Silverman’s whole take-no-prisoners assault on religion.

Think about what religion is—a total worldview that lets each believer feel like she’s found meaning and purpose in a bewildering universe. So, it’s not much of a stretch to argue that people are reluctant to give up their religious beliefs when they are intimately tied to their sense of self-worth.

more at link
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The Case Against In-Your-Face Atheism (Original Post) cbayer Jan 2015 OP
This should be one of those nobrainers... TreasonousBastard Jan 2015 #1
Agree, particularly, as he points out, when it threatens someone's identity. cbayer Jan 2015 #3
yes musn't threaten anyone's identity. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #133
yeah a few people in paris are missing parts of their brains. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #132
Silly is kind of a childish word to use. Cartoonist Jan 2015 #2
So, if a post seems nonsensical, frivolous, pointless and empty, can I call it silly. cbayer Jan 2015 #4
The OP objected to the word silly. Cartoonist Jan 2015 #5
The OP objected to more than that. TreasonousBastard Jan 2015 #6
I only help where I can. nt Cartoonist Jan 2015 #10
I have one hope for you and that is that you read the article with cbayer Jan 2015 #13
None of it applies Cartoonist Jan 2015 #15
That's unfortunate. Then I guess I won't expect anything different from cbayer Jan 2015 #17
What? Cartoonist Jan 2015 #23
Not for a second, but I am a rather optimistic person, cbayer Jan 2015 #26
How is providing a list of synonyms for a word he objects to helpful? cbayer Jan 2015 #7
That's a silly point. rug Jan 2015 #20
I think you missed the point. goldent Jan 2015 #34
"In other words, don’t be a jerk" rug Jan 2015 #8
A message that can easily be adopted by anyone, not just atheists. cbayer Jan 2015 #14
In my experience, it really doesn't matter how you talk to them about religion kdmorris Jan 2015 #9
I don't know. Maybe if people are defensive you are not coming across as quite cbayer Jan 2015 #12
Bigotry Cartoonist Jan 2015 #16
If I said I objected to atheism and all its evils, would that be bigotry? cbayer Jan 2015 #18
If you honestly feel that atheism is evil, Cartoonist Jan 2015 #21
I didn't ask whether you would accept my objection. cbayer Jan 2015 #24
Are you comparing religious people to rapists? Cartoonist Jan 2015 #27
Yes, you are comparing one bad thing (rape) with another bad thing (religious belief). cbayer Jan 2015 #32
Is that correct? Cartoonist Jan 2015 #42
I am not incapable of understanding your point of view, I cbayer Jan 2015 #47
Bring it on! Cartoonist Jan 2015 #49
Bring it on? That's somewhat more aggressive than I tend to be. cbayer Jan 2015 #50
The fact that you disagree with it is not at all surprising. Cartoonist Jan 2015 #52
Oh, sir, I am not in the least riled up. cbayer Jan 2015 #54
"I object to religion and all its evils." Starboard Tack Jan 2015 #19
Do you not object to evil? nt Cartoonist Jan 2015 #22
Define "evil" Starboard Tack Jan 2015 #45
Evil Cartoonist Jan 2015 #48
"Evil is doing bad things" Starboard Tack Jan 2015 #71
We see the same thing happening in the New Atheist movement. Cartoonist Jan 2015 #74
You honestly think beheadings have anything to do with religion? Starboard Tack Jan 2015 #78
They most certainly are religious inspired. Cartoonist Jan 2015 #79
Interesting little dance you did there. Starboard Tack Jan 2015 #84
I see good and evil. Cartoonist Jan 2015 #86
Please point to a recent beheading by a Christian, a Jew, or member of any religion whathehell Jan 2015 #80
Why does it have to be recent? Cartoonist Jan 2015 #83
Maybe because society changes over time? okasha Jan 2015 #87
Your opinion is irrelevant Cartoonist Jan 2015 #88
You're making evev less sense than usual. okasha Jan 2015 #92
The revolution was against the aristocracy Cartoonist Jan 2015 #94
The people did in fact rise up against the aristocracy. okasha Jan 2015 #97
I agree with that. Cartoonist Jan 2015 #98
"Please point to a recent beheading by an Atheist" It's the same frame you used in post #74 whathehell Jan 2015 #105
Thank you. whathehell Jan 2015 #82
Evil is doing bad things" okasha Jan 2015 #85
OK. let me try again Cartoonist Jan 2015 #91
That's a list of examples, okasha Jan 2015 #93
I'm not going to bother. Cartoonist Jan 2015 #95
How would you know? kdmorris Jan 2015 #28
How would I know what? cbayer Jan 2015 #33
How would you know I wasn't loving enough? kdmorris Jan 2015 #53
I fell that you are trapping me again, so I'm going to bow out. cbayer Jan 2015 #55
The saying about not discussing religion or politics is as old as the hills goldent Jan 2015 #39
Sounds like Ink Man Jan 2015 #11
The Case Against In-Your-Face Liberalism Cartoonist Jan 2015 #25
I think his argument could be made for any group that is employing cbayer Jan 2015 #29
You don't get to define 'in your face'. School re-integration was undoubtably described as 'in your AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #30
Excellent point. trotsky Jan 2015 #51
I am really glad there are many kinds of atheists out there. trotsky Jan 2015 #31
The case against in your face civil rights activists. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #35
The case against in your face LGBTQ activists. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #36
The case against pointing out the emperor is butt-ass naked. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #37
Well almost all the athiests I know in real life are live and let live type people. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #38
My experience is the same IRL. cbayer Jan 2015 #40
My experience is the same as yours. goldent Jan 2015 #41
I am a little different in public life. Cartoonist Jan 2015 #46
It's odd because most of the believers I know IRL kdmorris Jan 2015 #56
I am so sorry you had to experience this. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #58
Not in my experience shenmue Jan 2015 #57
I am sorry to hear this. hrmjustin Jan 2015 #59
This is a political site. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #76
Sometimes, it's best to explain why you mmonk Jan 2015 #43
And then there are folks like the Phelps Clan / WBC... trotsky Jan 2015 #44
True. But everyone recognizes that. mmonk Jan 2015 #107
Does everyone recognize that the rest of the religious assholes on the other side of disgusting from Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #108
My point is style related, not about double standards mmonk Jan 2015 #109
Which is classic tone trolling. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #110
LOL. Ok. mmonk Jan 2015 #112
which is exactly the same response met when feminists and others object to tone trolling. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #114
In a way. But not exactly. I'd rather start mmonk Jan 2015 #124
I'm an atheist I work for catholics gwheezie Jan 2015 #60
I really value the position you take here. cbayer Jan 2015 #62
Is it just you that has to be harmed? jeff47 Jan 2015 #65
I'd be interested in knowing more about your getting fired. cbayer Jan 2015 #68
It was a multinational retail corporation. jeff47 Jan 2015 #75
I am so sorry that happened to you. cbayer Jan 2015 #77
If I got fired for being atheist gwheezie Jan 2015 #70
Which is how mutual respect, okasha Jan 2015 #81
,,,If that was the only reason, you had a ready legal remedy. rug Jan 2015 #72
It was, but multinational corporations have a few more resources available jeff47 Jan 2015 #73
Yes, quiet acquiescence has always changed the world. jeff47 Jan 2015 #61
Well, if that bore any resemblance whatsoever with what the author is saying, cbayer Jan 2015 #63
Actually, it bears a lot of resemblence jeff47 Jan 2015 #64
Actually, it doesn't. cbayer Jan 2015 #67
In Taoist/ eastern philosophy LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #66
I think your points are valid. cbayer Jan 2015 #69
In-Your-Face Religion is more harmful to religion... greendog Jan 2015 #89
What is "the cause of atheism"? rug Jan 2015 #90
The sooner religious privilege goes away... MellowDem Jan 2015 #96
The sooner white, patriarchal, heterosexual, economic privilege goes away, okasha Jan 2015 #99
Their strongest ally Cartoonist Jan 2015 #100
Their strongest allies are economic disparity and the financial system. okasha Jan 2015 #102
+1 rug Jan 2015 #104
Glad you're on board nt MellowDem Jan 2015 #115
Too bad you're not. okasha Jan 2015 #117
What makes you say that? MellowDem Jan 2015 #121
In your face theism is all over Lordquinton Jan 2015 #101
Well said. Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #113
Very well said indeed, I thank you for that! n/t haikugal Jan 2015 #129
sigh Prophet 451 Jan 2015 #103
Well said whathehell Jan 2015 #106
Well said. Starboard Tack Jan 2015 #120
Theism is in a very privileged position... MellowDem Jan 2015 #130
OK Prophet 451 Jan 2015 #134
I don't know what you feel when you pray. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #138
The same old... NeoGreen Jan 2015 #111
The sad but important thing is that the panels could be cbayer Jan 2015 #116
In response... NeoGreen Jan 2015 #122
In terms of the "stay quiet" invective, it all depends on the population you are looking at. cbayer Jan 2015 #123
In western societies where atheism is predominate it's not an issue Fumesucker Jan 2015 #125
Actually, it is in the west where we are seeing a pretty impressive cbayer Jan 2015 #126
That's happening in places where atheists are in the minority Fumesucker Jan 2015 #127
Not really. The biggest Sunday Assembly groups are in cbayer Jan 2015 #128
Right as usual. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #135
So because people take their religions far too seriously, we have to tip toe around them? Humanist_Activist Jan 2015 #118
What about those individuals that find some relevance in faith based stories, examples or whatever? pinto Jan 2015 #119
What relevance does your post have to mine? Humanist_Activist Jan 2015 #136
I find relevance in Harry Potter Lordquinton Jan 2015 #137
Well you might get murdered. Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #131

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
1. This should be one of those nobrainers...
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 12:46 PM
Jan 2015

that are too obvious to be spoken.

the religious person will normally react to atheist onslaughts exactly the same way atheists react to religious ones.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
133. yes musn't threaten anyone's identity.
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 11:22 PM
Jan 2015

Doing so invites the equivalent response of taking someone's life, or so we have been told repeatedly in this forum and elsewhere on DU.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
132. yeah a few people in paris are missing parts of their brains.
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 11:21 PM
Jan 2015

I guess they should have shut the fuck up. After all a nasty cartoon is equivalent to be being murdered.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
2. Silly is kind of a childish word to use.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 12:47 PM
Jan 2015

Which one of these from a thesaurus would be better?


crazy
frivolous
idiotic
inappropriate
irresponsible
ludicrous
nonsensical
pointless
preposterous
ridiculous
simple
stupid
empty
irrational
asinine
balmy

Here are some antonyms for silly. Do any of these work?

intelligent
mature
reasonable
responsible
sensible
serious
smart
wise
practical

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. So, if a post seems nonsensical, frivolous, pointless and empty, can I call it silly.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 12:54 PM
Jan 2015

Or did you have a point?

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
5. The OP objected to the word silly.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 12:57 PM
Jan 2015

I seldom use the word myself. Just trying to be helpful in improving people's vocabulary.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
13. I have one hope for you and that is that you read the article with
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 01:29 PM
Jan 2015

an open mind and consider whether any of it may apply to you.

I'm not optimistic, but I only help where I can.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
7. How is providing a list of synonyms for a word he objects to helpful?
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 01:09 PM
Jan 2015

Do you agree with his point that demeaning believers can be counter-productive?

kdmorris

(5,649 posts)
9. In my experience, it really doesn't matter how you talk to them about religion
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 01:10 PM
Jan 2015

It still causes them to be defensive even if you are "loveable" about it.

Basically, if it's someone I care about having an ongoing relationship with - family, co-workers, etc - I do not talk to them about religion.

Also in my experience, I do not get extended the same courtesy, which leads to me feeling quite a bit of resentment that others are allowed to beat me over the head with their beliefs while I'm not supposed to say anything to them so that we don't "hurt their feelings" or "be bigoted toward them".

As soon as I see an article put out on how religious people should talk to atheists to avoid these feelings, I'll consider this guy's opinion.

Until then... whatever... it's some guys opinion. I mainly don't try to give anyone to give up their religion because it never works and leads to severed relationships, but I'll be damned if I'm going to just sit here and get beaten and walked on over and over and over again like a cheap rug. So, if sometimes, I fight back... I'm not wrong.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
12. I don't know. Maybe if people are defensive you are not coming across as quite
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 01:27 PM
Jan 2015

as lovable as you think.

Avoiding the topic is probably best at times, but what about interactions with believers on the net, and specifically on this site.

I do think his article easily can be redrawn to instruct believers how to best talk with nonbelievers, and there have been many articles before on just that.

There is a lot of room between saying nothing and being bigoted, and I think that is what the article speaks to.

I don't think he comes anywhere near suggesting that you just sit back and get beaten or walked all over. Take it or leave it, but i think it's good advice.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
18. If I said I objected to atheism and all its evils, would that be bigotry?
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 01:38 PM
Jan 2015

And don't use this as an opportunity to defend atheism, because I don't really believe that statement. I'm just asking if when this statement is applied to a group you are a member of, whether it might then be bigotry.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
21. If you honestly feel that atheism is evil,
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 01:54 PM
Jan 2015

then I can accept your objection to it. I would strongly disagree with that point of view.

Here's what wikipedia has to say:
Bigotry is a state of mind where a person strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. Some examples include personal beliefs, race, religion, national origin, gender, disability, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, or other group characteristics.

I think the key word here is unfairly. If I strongly dislike rapists, am I a bigot? My objection to religion is based on the crimes committed in its name, and what I perceive is its contrariness to reality which acts as a wall to human progress. I am uninterested in the good some people claim for religion because I feel the bad far outweighs the good. I also realize there have been bad atheists in history, but I feel that they are just bad people to begin with, just like good religious people are good to begin with.

It's like Ink Man says, love the sinner, hate the sin.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
24. I didn't ask whether you would accept my objection.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:07 PM
Jan 2015

I asked whether it would be bigotry.

What is I said that I had many advantages over atheists, including facts, evidence, reality, history and science.

Now, granted there is absolutely no evidence to substantiate my claim that I have all these things and atheists don't, but I'm going to claim it anyway.

Is that bigoted?

I know what the definition is. When someone makes statements like I made above that are without merit and only express my strong and unfair dislike of atheists, does that not fit the definition?

Are you comparing religious people to rapists?

So let me see if I understand this. When religious people are good, they were good to begin with and when atheists are bad, they were bad to begin with. Can that be extended to say that when religious people are bad, it is because they are religious and when atheists are good, it is because they are atheists?

If you only followed what Ink Man said, love the sinner and hate the sin, we might not have an issue. But when you start making completely fabricated lists about advantages that atheists have other theists, you are hating on what you perceive as the sinner, are you not?

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
27. Are you comparing religious people to rapists?
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:11 PM
Jan 2015

No, I am comparing bad things to other bad things. Some are badder than others. The problem I see here is that you take religion too personally and confuse my dislike of religion for a dislike of you. You need to get over that.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
32. Yes, you are comparing one bad thing (rape) with another bad thing (religious belief).
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:20 PM
Jan 2015

Is that correct?

The problem I see here is that you take religion too personally and confuse my dislike of religious intolerance for a dislike of you. You need to get over that.

Oh, and when you stop mocking me personally and my life choices, I might consider "getting over" your dislike of me.

Deal?

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
42. Is that correct?
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:48 PM
Jan 2015

Yes. I guess the problem here is that you are incapable of understanding my point of view. I consider religion to be a force of badness. History and evidence support my point of view. You dislike me because I hold this point of view and show no understanding of my opinion. That goes beyond tolerance into downright enmity. Knock it off. I may not have acted in the friendliest manner to you, but I don't know you from Eve, and have no personal grudge against you. Your defense of religion is another matter. I am one of those militant atheists who would love to see an end to religious belief. I think it would do the world a lot of good to be without make-believe institutions. Sometimes I get carried away and get in your face, but that is just the importance and severity I hold my opinion on the matter.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
47. I am not incapable of understanding your point of view, I
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:59 PM
Jan 2015

am just very opposed to your POV.

History and evidence can be read in such a way to support your POV but it can also be read in such a way to support that religion is a force of goodness. It's you ability to only read one side that I object to.

It's not about liking you or understanding you. Enmity is posting a fabricated lists of things you think atheists have that theists don't. That is the definition of enmity.

You have mocked me openly and very personally and you are telling me to knock it off? As long as you pursue a full throttle crusade against religion and religious believers, I will be challenging you.

As the article points out, if your goal is to end religious belief, then you might want to rethink your approach. If your goal is to attack as many people who hold a different POV from you regarding religion as possible, keep it up.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
49. Bring it on!
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 03:12 PM
Jan 2015
As long as you pursue a full throttle crusade against religion and religious believers, I will be challenging you.

As the article points out, if your goal is to end religious belief, then you might want to rethink your approach.
-

I'm cool with it. I disagree with the OP. Surely you have figured that out.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
50. Bring it on? That's somewhat more aggressive than I tend to be.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 03:14 PM
Jan 2015

The OP is directed at you. The fact that you disagree with it is not at all surprising.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
52. The fact that you disagree with it is not at all surprising.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 03:19 PM
Jan 2015

Yet, instead of dismissing me, or better yet, ignoring me, you choose to engage me and then get all riled up. You respond to my every post and then make the claim that you are not as aggressive. You are very entertaining.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
54. Oh, sir, I am not in the least riled up.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 03:23 PM
Jan 2015

I will indeed respond to every post you make that I want to respond to. I will keep it civil and try not to make it personal, though that part can be hard at times.

If you experience that as aggressive, you may need to take your own advice about expressing your (non)beliefs in an open forum.

Glad that I am able to entertain you. I will assuredly keep up the good work.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
19. "I object to religion and all its evils."
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 01:39 PM
Jan 2015

How would you describe that statement? Tolerant? Open minded? Humble? Liberal?

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
48. Evil
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 03:03 PM
Jan 2015

Evil is doing bad things. Like murder and oppression. Do you believe that religion has never done these things? I know that other people and other institutions have done them as well, but I think religion is the all-time champion in this regard. You may disagree, but that is my opinion, and it should be treated with the same respect you would ask of your beliefs. Clearly, you do not respect my opinion, and you hold religion blameless in all things, else you would not even ask such a question

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
71. "Evil is doing bad things"
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 07:28 PM
Jan 2015

That is a very simplistic statement.
But I'll go along with it for now. I agree that murder and oppression are bad things. I also agree that many people commit evil acts in the name of religion.
However, people commit these ats, not religion. People commit evil acts in the name of all kinds of things, from religion to politics, from affairs of the heart to moments of depression or anger, from betrayal to patriotism.
There are many justifications that evildoers use to mitigate their vileness.

Religion itself, has never committed an evil act, nor has atheism or democracy, or patriotism or any other -cracy or -ism. People do these things. Not their beliefs, but their actions.

I respect your opinions and beliefs. I may not share them, but I respect them. I only lose my respect for you when you put them into action by broad brushing the entire category of belief systems that fall under the definition of "religion".

I hold those who commit evil acts responsible, not the beliefs that may have motivated someone to commit them.

The problem I have with religion and politics is that they lend themselves to the manipulation of the poor and uneducated by those who seek power and control over them. This does not mean religion itself is evil any more than politics is evil, but they are both magnets for those who would embrace evil.

We see the same thing happening in the New Atheist movement. Inflated egos are the problem, not belief systems.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
74. We see the same thing happening in the New Atheist movement.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 07:37 PM
Jan 2015

No we don't. Please point to a recent beheading by an atheist. And no one is buying your argument that the recent beheadings in the middle east have nothing to do with religion. You may think that, but don't expect me to.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
78. You honestly think beheadings have anything to do with religion?
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 07:55 PM
Jan 2015

I don't expect you to do anything, btw. We are having a conversation about "evil". You are arguing that all religion is evil. I am arguing that individuals commit evil acts, regardless of there justification.

To blame the thuggery that is taking place in IS dominated areas of Iraq and Syria on religion is ignorant and leads to the kind of bigotry and evil one sees all over the internet by RW extremists who say, "Let's go nuke all those ragheads".
The beheadings are about bringing a population to its knees, so it can be controlled and dominated. The currency is fear, not religion. Religion is used to define which side each person is on, just like it is used by fundamentalists everywhere, be they believers or anti-theists. Intimidation and bullying are the tactics. One does not need to decapitate another human to be an evildoer.

I don't follow any religion or believe in a god or creation, but I do believe in Karma. I believe in judging people only by their actions, not their color, gender, race, nationality, religious affiliation, thoughts or ideas.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
79. They most certainly are religious inspired.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:09 PM
Jan 2015

But go ahead and apologize for religion and call me a bigot.

I also contend that the mere existence of religion is evil, though you may object to the use of that word. It is a bit strong, but I will repeat myself again, the denial of reality is not benevolent in any way shape or form. The denial of evolution and the opposition to stem cell research are two examples of how religion is actually hindering the advancement of science and the quality of health care. No, you need not point out how there are some religious people who support science, It's the ones who don't that are the problem, and we wouldn't have them were it not for religion.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
84. Interesting little dance you did there.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:22 PM
Jan 2015

You backtrack with

"They most certainly are religious inspired."

Which is basically what I said.

Then you return to your extremist view
"I also contend that the mere existence of religion is evil"


Then you ramble on about "denial of evolution" and "stem cell research", again blaming "religion" itself, instead of the extremist nutjobs who use religion to justify their bigotry.

Why do you see only theists as bigots? Except maybe you don't, because here you backtrack again with
"No, you need not point out how there are some religious people who support science, It's the ones who don't that are the problem, and we wouldn't have them were it not for religion."

Of course I don't need to point it out, because you already knew. Thank you.
There are many scientists who support religion also. I guess we wouldn't have them if it weren't for both science and religion.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
86. I see good and evil.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:30 PM
Jan 2015

You see only good. When religion does evil, you dismiss it. When religion does good, I acknowledge it. I think the bad outweighs the good by a large margin.

There are many scientists who support religion also. I guess we wouldn't have them if it weren't for both science and religion.
-
I don't see any need for religion here. The fact that they are religious is irrelevant. They could be Cubs fans, and it wouldn't make a difference.

whathehell

(29,026 posts)
80. Please point to a recent beheading by a Christian, a Jew, or member of any religion
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:16 PM
Jan 2015

besides Islam.

No, you can't and no one is buying your "all religions are the same" line, either

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
83. Why does it have to be recent?
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:22 PM
Jan 2015

Didn't they burn women at the stake? I didn't know there was a statute of limitations on that sort of thing.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
87. Maybe because society changes over time?
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:34 PM
Jan 2015

But, oh, hey-- if there's no statute of limitations, let's talk about the beheadings of tens of thousands of innocent people, including priests and nuns, by atheists during the Terror in revutionary France.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
88. Your opinion is irrelevant
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:42 PM
Jan 2015

because you dismiss the genocide of the Americas as just a land grab. You can't have it both ways. I don't have the figures, but I bet there were more Christians than atheists in revolutionary France. But if you want to lay it at the feet of the atheist and hold the Christians blameless, I expect nothing else from you.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
92. You're making evev less sense than usual.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 09:20 PM
Jan 2015

The Terror in France was conducted by the atheist revolutionary government, not by Catholics. Like ISIS, their aim was not only to remove their actual enemies, but to terrorize the majority population.

You have no idea of what the real Native American experience was or is. You trivialize that experience by your cheap attempt to co-opt it to your personal obsession.

Your opinion on the matter truly is irrelevant.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
94. The revolution was against the aristocracy
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 10:17 PM
Jan 2015

in which the church was complicit. The people rose up against the crown and church.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
97. The people did in fact rise up against the aristocracy.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 11:07 PM
Jan 2015

Unfortunately, "the people" gained almost nothing for their efforts. The revolutionary elite were just as tyrranical, if not more so. It was Robespierre and his committee who made Bonaparte possible, along with France's venture into continent-wide imperialism.

whathehell

(29,026 posts)
105. "Please point to a recent beheading by an Atheist" It's the same frame you used in post #74
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 01:18 AM
Jan 2015

so maybe you could tell us.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
85. Evil is doing bad things"
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:25 PM
Jan 2015

isn't just simplistic. It's circular.

You'll have to try harder than that.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
91. OK. let me try again
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 09:05 PM
Jan 2015

Evil is the willful act of violating someone's person or human rights such as capital punishment for the holding of contrary ideas. It is the implementing of laws based wholly on texts that can not be enacted or reviewed by the populace without the sole authority of unelected personages. Evil is the relegating of certain classes of people such as gays or women based on texts written centuries earlier that can never be updated by reason of Holy Writ. Evil is the imposition of strictures in the name of beings whose existence can not be proven.

kdmorris

(5,649 posts)
28. How would you know?
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:11 PM
Jan 2015

Many believers have their religion at the core of their self-identification. Saying "I don't believe there is a god" comes across to them as "You are wrong", especially if it's someone who "used to" respect you. If YOU can come to that conclusion then they feel like you are saying they are wrong.

"Specifically on this site" - I assume that most, if not all, of the believers here are progressive Democrats. I also assume that means that they are NOT the most eggregious examples of believers violating my rights.

I think that posting this as a "help" for the non-believers on this site is just a continuation of the 10 things DU Atheists should know... it's fairly insulting and posted under the premise that we don't ALREADY KNOW is this stuff.

I was once accused of child abuse by a fundamentalist RW Christian because I didn't take my children to church. She suggested that my 3 daughters should be removed from my home and raised by good people.

My then 6 year old daughter was thrown out of the house of a fundamentalist RW Christian (a different one) who told her that her parents were going to hell and to never come back. My daughter was heartbroken and consequently, despite my attempts at explaining that all believers are NOT like that, pretty much hates religion.

You failed to address much of what I was saying... I DO practice this advice (which you've judged to be deficient). But I get mad just like others when I'm constantly smacked around by believers and then, when I swipe back, I'm judged to be bigoted or attacking... with absolutely no thought of what has transpired before or how I was wronged. I'm AUTOMATICALLY wrong because I was not "loving" in my response to the beating that I was handed (I'm using beating in a metaphorical sense here).

So, in response to "don't be a jerk" I would add "Don't expect others not to react when you ARE A jerk".

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
33. How would I know what?
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:27 PM
Jan 2015

The article addresses your point exactly. Many believers have their religion at the core of their identity. If you attack someone's core identity, you may be completely losing your audience.

If that is your intent, then I guess it would make sense to keep doing it.

The article is written by an atheist. You might see him as the wrong kind of atheist or an atheist you don't agree with, but it is not equivalent to the "10 things" thread.

Sorry, but it is glaringly obvious that a lot of people don't ALREADY KNOW this.

I think being accused of child abuse for not taking your child to church is, well, as wrong as those who say those that teach their children religion are guilty of child abuse. This, btw, is something that was posted here just this weak.

I think you have good points when you are talking about people that are being jerks and aggressively attacking you because you are not religious.

But if you are extending your rage at being smacked around to all believers, even those with whom you have so much more in common and have never smacked you around, that is where this advice might be worthy.

kdmorris

(5,649 posts)
53. How would you know I wasn't loving enough?
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 03:19 PM
Jan 2015

How is saying "I don't believe in god" an attack on anyone, in any way? That was the example I used. Many hard-core believers hear me say "You are wrong to believe in god" when I say "I don't believe in god".

"You might see him as the wrong kind of atheist or an atheist you don't agree with,


Who said that?


"But if you are extending your rage at being smacked around to all believers, even those with whom you have so much more in common and have never smacked you around, that is where this advice might be worthy. "


Not doing that either. I have already stipulated that I assume that the believers on this site are progressive and are NOT the believers I'm talking about.

Do you even read my posts, cbayer? If so, why are your responding to me as if I'm the Atheist Cabal instead of another human being? You don't seem to be responding TO ME or to what I've posted.

I said I never try to convert anyone to atheism, so the point that this atheist is trying to make is lost on me. There is NO POINT to trying to get someone to believe in a religion or lack of religion that they don't already believe in, lovingly or not.

And I'm a feeling a little stupid that I responded to you when POSTING THIS was just another attempt to discuss how atheists do it all the time on this site (DU)...not the article itself is attacking atheists. I thought you wanted to have a conversation about this article but in your very first post to me, you made it clear that you only wanted to talk about how atheists are doing it ON THIS SITE and your continued responses to me are just a set of talking points that have nothing to do with me.

But, hey, you rock on... I'm done with this conversation.

DISCLAIMER: Nothing in any of my responses to this thread is to indicate that I would welcome you bringing up any of my children outside of this conversation. They are all amazing and marvelous so don't bother asking

goldent

(1,582 posts)
39. The saying about not discussing religion or politics is as old as the hills
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:42 PM
Jan 2015

but still applies more than ever today (I think this saying came about when the danger was mainly related different sects of Christianity as well as Judism).

I think the understatement of this thread is "I mainly don't try to give anyone to give up their religion because it never works"

On rare occasion I do get "walked over like a cheap rug" but it's like water off of a duck's back.

 

Ink Man

(171 posts)
11. Sounds like
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 01:24 PM
Jan 2015

our love the sinner hate the sin. You can't save them if you attack them all the time.

Mark 2:16-17
When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?"

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Happy Sunday.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
25. The Case Against In-Your-Face Liberalism
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:07 PM
Jan 2015

Substitute liberalism for atheism in the OP. Does anyone here think that the republican philosophy is beneficial to the country? I have two republican brothers whom I love, but I am wholly opposed to their politics. I am sure there are nice republicans out there, but I still oppose their political views. Am I a bigot?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
29. I think his argument could be made for any group that is employing
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:16 PM
Jan 2015

"in your face" behavior with other people who share their values but a different personal position.

I see some of the "in your face" behavior from some members here who see themselves as much more progressive than everyone else. I don't think it's very effective.

Opposing someones views or politics is not the same as strongly and unfairly disliking other people because their religious beliefs are different than your own.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
30. You don't get to define 'in your face'. School re-integration was undoubtably described as 'in your
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:18 PM
Jan 2015

face' by certain racist assholes.

Therein lies the problem.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
51. Excellent point.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 03:16 PM
Jan 2015

Thus, it will be ignored. Because apparently all that matters is bashing vocal atheists.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
31. I am really glad there are many kinds of atheists out there.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:19 PM
Jan 2015

Just like there were (and are) ranges of individuals involved with other movements, like Civil Rights or LGBTQ equality.

Funny, I don't think anyone at DU would get upset at the more firebrand members of those movements, but atheists regularly receive all kinds of bile and vitriol.

Takes all kinds. I am thankful for the wide range of people delivering the message.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
38. Well almost all the athiests I know in real life are live and let live type people.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:40 PM
Jan 2015

I don't care for in your face tactics unless it is really needed.

goldent

(1,582 posts)
41. My experience is the same as yours.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:48 PM
Jan 2015

I know one person (who I assume is atheist but I don't know) who likes to mock our religion, but I see it more as good natured "guy" ribbing.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
46. I am a little different in public life.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:58 PM
Jan 2015

I certainly do not go out of my way to be "in your face." This place is intended to be a forum to discuss religion, so I have no problem in letting it all hang out. Those who can not tolerate open ideas on religion should not be surprised or offended when such views are expressed.

kdmorris

(5,649 posts)
56. It's odd because most of the believers I know IRL
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 03:29 PM
Jan 2015

are not live and let live. Most of you on this site are fairly live and let live, but IRL, I think I run into a lot of RW fundies who think that I spend my time teaching my children to sacrifice chickens.

My parents, my brother and my younger sister do not talk to me because I told them that I didn't believe. My older sister spent a lot of time trying to convert me before I had to tell her that we had more in common than not and it would be AWESOME if we could just be sisters and not have her constantly shove religion down my throat. I had to be pretty in your face (threatening to cut off the relationship if she didn't stop trying to convert me and my children) to get her to listen because she's as stubborn as I am.

Thankfully, she valued the relationship as much as I did and we were able to still love each other despite our differing religious (and political) views.



AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
76. This is a political site.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 07:44 PM
Jan 2015

"In real life" I am live and let live, interpersonally, for the most part.
I don't take the time to log into du to 'live and let live'. I engage where there's a problem. I don't post in Environment/energy much anymore because I largely agree with the active posters. Nothing to say, really.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
43. Sometimes, it's best to explain why you
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:49 PM
Jan 2015

believe as you do rather than saying the person you are talking to is an idiot for holding their beliefs.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
44. And then there are folks like the Phelps Clan / WBC...
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 02:52 PM
Jan 2015

who have rightly earned the label of "idiot" for holding their beliefs.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
108. Does everyone recognize that the rest of the religious assholes on the other side of disgusting from
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 08:32 AM
Jan 2015

the WBC are also out of line for pushing their brand of religion at every opportunity? Oh no they don't. That's just fine.

This OP is bullshit. Atheists are supposed to sit down and shut up while the religious push and flaunt their ridiculous bullshit all over the place.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
109. My point is style related, not about double standards
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 08:52 AM
Jan 2015

of the religious. The best way to get someone to think or listen is to start by affirmation of your case expressing what has shaped your position rather than proclaiming the idiocy of your target's position. However, if one is not trying to show one's position and its logic, then proceed without that in mind.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
110. Which is classic tone trolling.
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 09:44 AM
Jan 2015

It is the language of privilege. Sure you can speak, just stop being so nasty, strident, loud, rude, etc.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
114. which is exactly the same response met when feminists and others object to tone trolling.
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 01:50 PM
Jan 2015

Sarcastic dismissal.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
124. In a way. But not exactly. I'd rather start
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 01:53 PM
Jan 2015

by simply using reason. Then I can apply incredulous at theirs.

gwheezie

(3,580 posts)
60. I'm an atheist I work for catholics
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 04:08 PM
Jan 2015

We start every shift, meeting, meal etc with a prayer. I asked to not lead prayers not because it's against some principle I have but because I'm really not a very good prayer. Some folks I work with are eloquent and can go on and on.
That being said I have prayed with patients. It's if no concern of theirs what I believe so if they believe in God and want to pray I pray along with them.
It doesn't hurt me. Now if I lived in a society where I was harmed by not believing in God that would be different.
It is what it is. I've been atheist since my teens, over 40 years. I don't find religious people evil. At times they are annoying and intrusive. I draw the line at religion in politics or laws. It's ridiculous in our country.
There's no point in arguing with religious people. Most of them mean well. If they want to pray for me what do I care.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
62. I really value the position you take here.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 04:27 PM
Jan 2015

You are empathetic without compromising your own "beliefs".

I wish we could all be more like that.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
65. Is it just you that has to be harmed?
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 04:40 PM
Jan 2015
Now if I lived in a society where I was harmed by not believing in God that would be different.

Well, I got fired for it. Do you have to see the harm actually happen for it to count?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
75. It was a multinational retail corporation.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 07:39 PM
Jan 2015

While I had grounds to sue, I had nowhere near enough money to fight them.

Coworker started bashing atheists. I told him I was one, and countered his points. Suddenly went from the manager really liking me to needing to "improve performance".

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
77. I am so sorry that happened to you.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 07:52 PM
Jan 2015

It may be too late, but it sounds like a case that FFRF or ACLU might be interested in.

I think the best way to counter this kind of discrimination is legally. You have to hit them where it hurts.

I don't blame you for being angry. No one should be fired for their personal position on religion, unless it somehow harms others.

gwheezie

(3,580 posts)
70. If I got fired for being atheist
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 05:19 PM
Jan 2015

That is harm. If that happened to you then it is out of bounds and illegal.
When I talk about harm I am also talking emotionally and spiritually. I don't view disagreement as being harmful. Also is someone damns me or sends me to hell that really has no meaning to me. I think all religions have factions that take it to an extreme and I would oppose those extremes as well as any society that causes harm to religious people. People believe all kinds of things that can't be proved. People also believe in things that have been proven incorrect.
I've been an atheist most of my life. I know most people I know are not atheists. The people I work for are not atheists. What we do have to commit to where I work is to help the poor and dying. They know I'm an atheist. I've been there 15 years. It has not been difficult. If anything I think since very religious people have seen I have the same commitment to helping the poor and dying without a belief in God it has changed their opinion of atheists.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
81. Which is how mutual respect,
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:17 PM
Jan 2015

which goes beyond just tolerance, works in the real world-- one-on-one.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
73. It was, but multinational corporations have a few more resources available
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 07:36 PM
Jan 2015

which makes suing not work in the real world.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
63. Well, if that bore any resemblance whatsoever with what the author is saying,
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 04:28 PM
Jan 2015

you might have a point.

But it doesn't, so I guess you don't.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
64. Actually, it bears a lot of resemblence
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 04:38 PM
Jan 2015

If you want to see the results of his plans, just look at modern Christendom in the US. Its current power is entirely due to "firebrand" people. The "don't annoy anyone" sects have slipped into non-relevance, and even non-existence in large areas.

So his plan is....do exactly what didn't work before. But this time, it'll change everyone's minds!!! Really!!!

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
67. Actually, it doesn't.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 05:04 PM
Jan 2015

He is very much in favor of advocating for atheists, promoting tolerance and decreasing prejudice.

I'm really not interested in modeling anything after the neocons that incited the religious right. You? They did it using fear and speaking to people's insecurities.

While you often need firebrands to kick down the doors, it is those who really understand how to talk to and work with people that get shit done.

Religious groups that are fighting for GLBT rights, economic equality and social justice haven't slipped into irrelevance. Quite the contrary. They are growing.

His plan is a great plan. It's the plan that always pushes the ball over the line.

If you can't see any ground between passivity and overt aggression, then I guess your perspective on this makes sense.

LostOne4Ever

(9,286 posts)
66. In Taoist/ eastern philosophy
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 04:48 PM
Jan 2015

They have a concept of balance they call the yin and the yang:

[center][/center]

The black represents the Yin, the female, the soft or cold. The white (or red) represents the Yang, the male, the hard, and the hot if you will. Neither can exist without the other; and, in fact, they exist within each other (the black spot inside the white, the white spot within the black).

I feel that all causes have their own yin and yang. Their firebrands and their peacemakers, and just as in the chinese concept of yin and yang they can not exist without each other. The american civil rights movement could not have succeeded without both firebrands and peacemakers. Those rocking the boat sitting at the front of the buses, and those who sought common ground to promote their causes.

They needed both their Malcolm X's and their Martin Luther King Jr.'s. Even then, MLK's actions were not completely those of a peacemaker. He called upon people to commit acts of civil disobedience, and Malcolm X did come to see the need for peacemakers as well.

Firebrands are needed to shake the comfortable from their nests snugly situated at the top of the tree of passive complacency. To make people feel uncomfortable, and even irritated. To get people to question themselves.

The author is arguing that firebrands are counter productive because people are intimately attached to their self worth. But the exact same could be said of the opponents of the civil rights movement and the anti-gay movement. If anything, they were MORE attached to those beliefs because they resorted to violence to stop progress. It took firebrands to stop them then, and it takes firebrands now.

History has shown that peacemakers alone are not enough. Even decades after the struggle for equal rights for racial minorities and women firebrands are still needed to produce change. Even today we have people wearing shirts saying "I can't Breath" as they block traffic and get in the faces of the American public to say that the racial double standard has got to go.

Firebrands are not the problem, and objecting to them because one does not like the way they present their message is not the solution.

The solution is for both firebrands and peacemakers to fight for their cause in their own way and acknowledge that both methods have their strengths and weaknesses and that together they make an unstoppable one-two punch for change.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
69. I think your points are valid.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 05:07 PM
Jan 2015

I have often said that there is a need for firebrands. They always play a role in any civil rights movement.

Some people are really good at it and they make a difference. It's when the yins think they are yangs and act like jerks, not firebrands, that he is talking about, imo.

greendog

(3,127 posts)
89. In-Your-Face Religion is more harmful to religion...
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 08:55 PM
Jan 2015

...than In-Your-Face Atheism is to atheism. My guess is that, while it might hurt the feelings of some religious folks, it's probably not particularly harmful to the cause of atheism.

I'd also point out that "nice religion" hasn't had much luck attracting people away from bad religion.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
96. The sooner religious privilege goes away...
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 10:24 PM
Jan 2015

The sooner these articles will be seen as the silly privilege affirming shit they are. No other idea gets this sort of protection.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
99. The sooner white, patriarchal, heterosexual, economic privilege goes away,
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 11:11 PM
Jan 2015

the greater our chance of surviving as a species becomes.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
100. Their strongest ally
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 11:21 PM
Jan 2015

is the church. There are a few religious people who support progressive issues, but the real power brokers are in bed with the religious right who have more influence than the progressives. And despite the PR pronouncements by the new Pope, homophobia still lives in the church and women are still second class.

In which century do you think we will see a black Pope? Will he be more like Herman Cain or Martin Luther King, Jr.?

okasha

(11,573 posts)
102. Their strongest allies are economic disparity and the financial system.
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 11:45 PM
Jan 2015

I think Desmond Tutu would be Pope right now if he weren't an Anglican.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
121. What makes you say that?
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 01:10 PM
Jan 2015

I'm not the one that posted an irrelevant post to distract from one type of privilege. That would be you. Hmm, maybe you aren't on board. In fact, I think you're a defender of privilege.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
101. In your face theism is all over
Sun Jan 4, 2015, 11:29 PM
Jan 2015

They come to my door, it doesn't get much more in your face than that. There are billboards all over the country telling us how bad we are for not going to church. People outside of planned parenthood are allowed to literally yell right in your face about how you're going to hell. Soup kitchens are branded with what church runs them, and you have to listen to their message, literally holding food for ransom unless you let them, wait for it, get in your face.

So really theists are afraid that atheists will treat them as they treat everyone else.

(And those who feel like emulating MRAs with the "not all religion" crap, stop taking everything so personally, and stop hogging the spotlight and making everything about yourself. Maybe do more about standing up to the one's you're "not like" instead.)

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
103. sigh
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 01:08 AM
Jan 2015

Organized atheism will get nowhere until it, firstly, drops the sneering, supercilious, contemptuous tone; secondly, acknowledges that it understand faith and people of faith as little as Pat Robertson understands its lack and thirdly, admits that some atheists, especially of the "New Atheist" variety, can be real jerks.

I predict that if there are responses to this, them will be either A) childish reversals, "we're not x, you're x"; B) tiresome claims to not knowing who the "New Atheists" are; C) claims that the theists drive them to it ("she made me so angry&quot ; D) pointing out that many theists are jerks (which is true but missed the point) or E) simple flat denial and/or insults.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
130. Theism is in a very privileged position...
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 05:54 PM
Jan 2015

Atheists are seen as "sneering" for mocking an idea because of this privilege. This whole site is dedicated to all forms of criticism of various ideas, but those ideas aren't privileged like religion is, and hence, it's no big deal.

I think much of "organized atheism" understands religion and faith incredibly well, most atheists I know were raised religious. I think atheism is doing incredibly well as far as lack of beliefs go, it's growing fairly quickly.

I think many believers and even atheists have a very hard time seeing the privilege of religion in a society where theism is the default and give it greater leeway than other ideas.

I think many defenders of religious dogma and religious privilege engage in the same type of cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty I see surrounding certain conservative ideas, and often enough, they're one and the same.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
134. OK
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 02:07 AM
Jan 2015
Atheists are seen as "sneering" for mocking an idea because of this privilege.


No, that's just the fundie "you hate us for our faith" word game. They are seen as sneering because they have snotty, supercilious attitudes.

This whole site is dedicated to all forms of criticism of various ideas, but those ideas aren't privileged like religion is, and hence, it's no big deal.


And on DU, it is atheism, or rather, anti-theism that is the privileged position. The religion group always has far more threads attacking faith and people of faith than it has threads for believers. When I ran a survey a few weeks ago (and yes, the limits of internet surveys taken as read), atheists outnumbered any other faith position.

I think much of "organized atheism" understands religion and faith incredibly well, most atheists I know were raised religious.


Fair point. Thing is, and I'm trying really hard not to say "they weren't real believers" here, those of us who believe actually feel the presence of our deity when we pray (and no, that's not mental illness, I have experienced both and they're quite different). Did teh ex-believers not feel that? Honest question.

I think many believers and even atheists have a very hard time seeing the privilege of religion in a society where theism is the default and give it greater leeway than other ideas.


True to an extent but not on DU.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
138. I don't know what you feel when you pray.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 03:33 AM
Jan 2015

Haven't a clue. But I do know a lot of people think they feel something under conditions other than 'mental illness', however defined.

Dostoyevsky 'felt' the presence of god when he had epileptic seizures. Epilepsy is a pathological synchrony in mis-firing neurons, and not a mental illness. (Sometimes accompanied by, or complicated by a mental illness, as that can interfere with drug treatments, etc, but it is itself not a mental illness.)

Feeling of Presence can be induced by many factors.


“Our experiment induced the sensation of a foreign presence in the laboratory for the first time. It shows that it can arise under normal conditions, simply through conflicting sensory-motor signals,” Blanke explained in a statement. “The robotic system mimics the sensations of some patients with mental disorders or of healthy individuals under extreme circumstances. This confirms that it is caused by an altered perception of their own bodies in the brain.”

Read more at http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113275003/ghost-sensations-explore-110714/#t1yWO2udLeJgfK5u.99

Your personal, subjective interpretation of what you think you 'feel' as the presence of your deity, may be something wholly un-related.

So, unfortunately, your question "Did teh ex-believers not feel that? Honest question." may not have a meaningful answer. They may well 'feel' something that doesn't exist.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
116. The sad but important thing is that the panels could be
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 02:10 PM
Jan 2015

only slightly changed and the message would be the same. There is a lot of "stay quiet" going in both directions, and that's not a good thing.

There is also a lot of "stay out of my face" going in both directions, I think that it's a valid thing to ask someone to do.

So, "you first" is a great response but "ok" is an even better one.

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
122. In response...
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 02:02 PM
Jan 2015
1) The sad but important thing is that the panels could be only slightly changed and the message would be the same.

Ok.


2) There is a lot of "stay quiet" going in both directions, and that's not a good thing.

I strongly disagree with your implication that the "stay quiet" invective is occurring in both directions with equal vehemence and in equal amounts. The predominant direction, vehemence and amount is as depicted in the cartoon.

I do agree that the "stay quiet" invective is not a good thing.


3) There is also a lot of "stay out of my face" going in both directions, I think that it's a valid thing to ask someone to do.

I somewhat agree with this sentiment, but again, it is not occurring in both directions with equal vehemence and in equal amounts.


4) So, "you first" is a great response but "ok" is an even better one.

I strongly disagree that "ok" is a better response.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
123. In terms of the "stay quiet" invective, it all depends on the population you are looking at.
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 02:16 PM
Jan 2015

While I would agree that telling atheists to stay quiet is extremely strong in some muslim dominated countries and fairly strong in some parts of the US and non-existent in Scandinavian countries, there is every variation in between.

Then there are other examples of where "stay quiet" is clearly aimed at theists, of course. China, Cuba, Christians in some parts of the world, etc. etc.

I would say the vehemence is quite equal. I disagree with your conclusion about the predominant direction.

It all depends who is in the minority and who has the privilege, right? This group might serve as a good example.

So, when you say that it is not equal in amount or vehemence, exactly what community are you talking about?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
125. In western societies where atheism is predominate it's not an issue
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 03:23 PM
Jan 2015

Just like people don't form organizations based on not collecting stamps, people don't organize based on not being religious except in those places where they feel under some sort of attack.

Now if non-stamp collectors were discriminated against and there were laws and state constitutions barring non-stamp collectors from holding office say then non-stamp collectors might feel the need to organize as a response to bigotry. There would never have been a NAACP if there were no such thing as racism, that organization came about because of bias and discrimination as did the JDL for that matter.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
126. Actually, it is in the west where we are seeing a pretty impressive
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 03:31 PM
Jan 2015

increase in people organizing around non-belief. I think it's primarily a search for community, but it's also an important part of what happens as any group works for equality and to decrease discrimination, as you say.

I also agree that this is likely to happen with any group that is facing discrimination, including religious groups in some places. Hence the comic can be redrawn to include just about any group.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
127. That's happening in places where atheists are in the minority
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 03:46 PM
Jan 2015

If you have something in common with over half the population it's not a basis for forming "community" in the sense you seem to be talking about.

Around here the two overwhelming favorites for forming "community" are religion and sports, both of which induce a desire for slumber in me.

Rah, rah, sis boom bah.. Amen.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
128. Not really. The biggest Sunday Assembly groups are in
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 03:54 PM
Jan 2015

Australia and England, places where atheists are not in the minority at all. That is where this movement originated and has taken he greatest hold.

In the US, the biggest groups are forming in cities with a higher percentage of nonbelievers than other parts of the country.

http://sundayassembly.com/assemblies/

What kind of community would you want, if you want one at all? I am also not interested in religious gatherings or sports for the most part, but have been lucky to find a community of people that share a similar lifestyle. We have a lot of things in common that are important to me - living simply, living off the wired grid, low utilization of resources, being self-sufficient, dedication to the environment.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
135. Right as usual.
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 02:42 AM
Jan 2015
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia

61.1% Christian, to 22.3% non-religious.

Non-religious breaks down into "Atheism, agnosticism, deism, scepticism, freethought, secular humanism or general secularism" according to their census.

So, 61% to something less than 22%.

Not a minority at all.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
118. So because people take their religions far too seriously, we have to tip toe around them?
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 03:30 PM
Jan 2015

That's bullshit, religion deserves no reverence, and that's precisely what people ask for, it needs to be knocked from its pedestal in society.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
119. What about those individuals that find some relevance in faith based stories, examples or whatever?
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 04:25 PM
Jan 2015

Or a sense of community, ethics and social histories? Common bonds, some that often cross cultural boundaries for a common good.

Not sure what you mean by "people take their religions far too seriously". I'm guessing you refer to those religionists who use in-your-face theism as a part of their religious practices. Not sure if using the same approach as a counterpoint is the best course of action.

I tend to ignore that on individual situations. I've no qualms with someone asking if I've "found" Jesus. Eh.

Where we may best use our efforts towards a common goal, though, is the standard of separation of church / state here in the US. That is seriously being challenged. In increasingly larger segments of society.

This is time to translate some of that in-your-face approach to the legal and legislative realms.

There are echoes in the civil rights, gay rights movements and activism for a national response to the AIDS medical crisis here.

I played a small supportive part in them all, individually. As did many religious groups, faith based activists. I can't support throwing that history nor the seeds planted for the future under some ideological bus. Regardless from what point of view.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
136. What relevance does your post have to mine?
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 03:10 AM
Jan 2015

As far as what I mean by those who take their religion far too seriously, I generally mean those who put the perceived needs to protect their beliefs or religion above the rights of people.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
137. I find relevance in Harry Potter
Thu Jan 8, 2015, 03:14 AM
Jan 2015

Doesn't mean I think it deserves respect because of it. At least HP doesn't have a genovidal maniac as it's central character.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
131. Well you might get murdered.
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 06:05 PM
Jan 2015

So it is perhaps the most prudent course. I'll stand in solidarity with Charlie Hedbo. We need to be in more faces more often. The case for shutting the fuck up is awash in blood.

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