I respect everyone's right to participate in the religion of their choice...

[brooklynite]

I do not respect the religions any of them choose.

[cleanhippie]

1. As you should, and shouldn't.

Couldn't agree more.

[brooklynite]

3. I have no children...everybody else is on their own

[cbayer]

6. How exactly would you propose to do that?

Should we forbid parents from taking their kids to their preferred religious group's meetings? Would this include the Sunday Assemblies?

Should we also keep kids out of political groups and let them make those decisions when they are able?

If we prevent children from being exposed to religion, are we not making that choice for them?

I think the best solution is to provide very good education about religion so that children are exposed to many ideas and ideas that may be very different than their parents, including atheism. That way they can make informed decisions later in their lives and, extra bonus, they may become much more understanding and tolerant of those whose religious beliefs are different than their families.

[cbayer]

10. Yes, you are making that choice for them

Just like a catholic parent who raises their kids catholic, or a muslim kid that raises their kids muslim. Making the decision to not expose them to religion, or raising a kid atheist because you are an atheist, is making the choice for them.

Your positions are very dogmatic. When you say things like "In religion there are no legitimate positions", you have taken an extreme and peremptory position. If that is your belief system and you raise your kids with that belief system, you are no different.

You just think you are.

[TexasProgresive]

13. I hate to be the one to tell you

but you got nothing. If a child is to have choice they must be informed of all those choices. If they are exposed to nothing then they are not informed, if they are exposed to one choice only then the are misinformed. It took me a long time to understand my uncle when he told me, "You want to have your cake and eat it too."

[uppityperson]

17. Is that what happened to you?

Will you make it to 50?

[cbayer]

19. GMTA, uppityperson.

How have you been?

[uppityperson]

20. Before yesterday's news bs, meh. Good and bad and glad the sun is coming back.

[cbayer]

24. I'm still waiting for things to cool off a bit.

Glad you are ok. Enjoy the sun.

[hrmjustin]

29. Always good to see you my friend!

[rug]

28. Let's start a pool.

I pick 42.

[cbayer]

37. I picked 33 and I win!

But I am shattered that I was put on ignore.

[rug]

39. Shit.

[hrmjustin]

38. Damn I wish I made a bet. Well my guess he will be back tomorrow.

[rug]

41. The trolls will come out tomorrow.

Bet your bottom dollar.

[uppityperson]

43. 33

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=320048

[cbayer]

18. How about this belief: In religion there are no legitimate positions.

Is it ok to impose that on young children, or do you keep that on the down low?

[cbayer]

16. I am many things besides obtuse, pennyback.

You certainly have a knack for pegging people really quickly.

[rug]

25. Note the CAPS!

[cbayer]

40. Might be a "relative" but Mark Charles is still on the loose.

Keeping it low and slow and staying out of trouble.

[hrmjustin]

42. I don't think that was mark but I could be wrong.

I think Mark is already here.

That was tradewinds.

[rug]

26. "In religion there are no legitimate positions."

That is utter bullshit.

[rug]

30. No, that is your broad brush bias.

[cbayer]

34. George Michael? The same George Michael who said this:

I know for a fact that many devout Christians. . . are truly wonderful, kind-hearted men and women who take the best parts of that religion and live admirable, generous and loving lives.

George Michael is able to differentiate between bad things and good things in religion. How about you?

[hrmjustin]

31. You just met him. how do you know what he thinks?

[NutmegYankee]

35. The ever constant tradewinds must have sailed it to him. nt

[hrmjustin]

36. .

[AtheistCrusader]

21. I would suggest they observe, but not be indoctrinated.

That goes for religious bullshit AND politics. Let them see, let them explore, let them form their own opinions.

Sticking them in sunday school isn't 'observing', it's indoctrination. If you wouldn't stick your kid in a mosque for the same duration classes, probably shouldn't do sunday school either.

[cbayer]

4. Does someone expect you to do otherwise?

What does this lack of respect mean in the real world when it comes to people who ascribe to said religions?

Do you have no respect for any religions or any parts of any religions?

[cbayer]

8. Well, you just reiterated what the OP said, but didn't really answer my questions

to him.

Does anyone expect you to respect religion?

How is this lack of respect expressed IRL when dealing with people with religious beliefs? How would you react if one of your children became religious?

Is there no aspect of any religion at all that you do have some respect for? Assuming that you don't know everything about every religion, do you imagine there might be some part that you did respect?

It's such a blanket statement that you have absolutely no respect for any religion.

Well, it's almost fundamentalist.

[cbayer]

15. I don't expect you to respect religion at all.

Here one day and already getting the lay of the land. You are being given very good advice, as it is clear that you do not wish to have your ideas challenged.

Well, welcome to DU and to the religion group.

May your time here be fruitful.

[hrmjustin]

22. Well on this you and I disagree!

[TM99]

32. So love the sinner but hate the sin then?

What religion were you raised in and are you sure you have truly let it go?

[brooklynite]

45. I walked out of Unitarian Sunday School when I was 8

My memory's a little foggy before that, but I don't believe I ever held religious beliefs, because it never seemed rational to.

[TM99]

46. I was about that same age when I knew I was not religious.

I had a high IQ, was reading well beyond my age bracket, and I still recognize now that a child does not have the knowledge, experience, etc. to state definitively that religion = not rational.

My experience and others, both religious believers and not, has taught me that religious belief is as likely to be predetermined at birth as much as homosexuality, hair color, eye color, etc. Psychology and culture have fully accepted the reality that being gay is not a choice. One is simply gay or one is simply not. There may be all sorts of sexual expression variations but none of them are 'chosen'.

Can science yet prove this? No. There is no definitive answer by hard science for a 'gay gene'. There is no definitive answer for what makes a person gay or straight. I am confident that the same will eventually be realized when it comes to religion. Nurture plays a part and yet nature always wins.

Therefore if someone does not choose whether to belief in religious things or not, then lambasting, decrying, bullying, excluding, etc. either side is flat out bigotry.

So your OP leans dangerously close to bigotry. Many a fundie exclaims that they believe homosexuality is a sin BUT hey they still love the sinner and pray for their eternal soul which will burn in hell because they are gay. You say the same thing here. Oh, sure, you are free to follow a religion, but I don't respect them, I think they are silly superstitions, and anyone who chooses to believe in them are not worthy of respect. Religious beliefs are not rational. You are religious. Therefore you are not rational. Logic 101.

Zero. Fucking. Difference.

[brooklynite]

47. Feel free to show me a scientific treatise supporting your opinion

Absent that, I see religion as indeed a matter of personal decision (both belief in general and the specific creed in particular) and I see no merit in any of them.

[TM99]

48. You didn't read a word I wrote.

There is no scientific treatise - yet - but research has begun. Check out the various neurological studies, some of which have just been posted in these forums.

There is no scientific treatise supporting homosexuality. Do you demand it of them when they say it is not a choice? I know my sister would smack you up side the skull if you tried that shit with her.

So right back at you, please provide a scientific treatise which supports your assertion that religious belief is nothing but a matter of personal choice.

And thankfully, very few listen to your ilk. Many see the merits in religious beliefs(and the downfalls of extremism in any form) quite readily even those like myself who are not religious.

[brooklynite]

49. The very fact that people can and do choose and change their religions...

including dropping religion in favor of atheism would seem to run counter to your -- still -- unfounded assertion that it's something you're born with.

[TM99]

50. Hardly.

Being religious from birth does not preclude any of those things nor does being irreligious.

My assertion may be unfounded as of now, and yet obviously not so silly as other psychologists, neurologists, and the like are studying this very theory.

Again, please provide your treatises on the subject. Let's also get some credentials and background that might justify some of your other assertions in this thread. Walk your talk.

[brooklynite]

51. I don't need to provide any evidence at all...I'm stating an opinion

My opinion is based on my interpretation that religion adds no benefits to society and can at it's extremes cause harm. You are more than welcome to disagree with my interpretation, and I'll defend your right to hold that opinion. However, you are asserting a biological cause for religious belief. That moves from personal interpretation to science and that it turn requires evidence. Which you clearly don't have.

[TM99]

54. Mine is an informed opinion

with much scientific research being done on just that premise that religious experiences, beliefs, etc. are in fact evolutionary & biological in nature.

You continue to assert that there is no basis for my informed opinion. Why will you not go research this?

So let's get you started then:

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1879179,00.html

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/08/evolutionary_st088461.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/belief-and-the-brains-god-spot-1641022.html

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/47/16784.abstract

http://www.issr.org.uk/latest-news/neuroscience-and-religious-faith/

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/12/believe.aspx

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140117153635.htm

So not only can I provide the science to back up my assertions, the science also shows that your opinion is factually wrong. While extremes may cause harm - and no one including myself fails to acknowledge this - religion has and continues to add benefit to society. Evolutionary science shows this. Psychology and sociology show this. History demonstrates this.

[brooklynite]

55. Okay, for the purpose of discussion, I'll stipulate your point. My OP stands

You agree with me that there are no gods to worship. Therefore, (whether biologically driven or not), religions are human constructs. As I said, I respect everyone's right to engage in one. Any every one that's been constructed so far (beliefs, dogmas, practices) does not, in my opinion, deserve my respect.

[TM99]

57. I may agree that there are not in my opinion

gods to worship. I may even agree that religions are human constructs. We agree that every one does have a right to engage or not engage in religious practices.

But yes, we depart at the last point. I absolutely think that there are many aspects of religions, religious beliefs, and those who practice them that are worthy of not only my respect, but my admiration.

I have had native American and Afro-Carribean elders instill in me a profound sense of the cycles of nature and the human place within them. I have known 'warriors for Christ' who marched with my parents and others during the civil rights era of the 1960's. Buddhist elders and Hindu yogi's have influenced my understanding of human consciousness and the depths of the human psychic condition. One of my first multicultural experiences was going to a Passover Seder led by the close rabbi friend of my father as a young man. An atheist professor of philosophy introduced me to Arabic mathematicians of the 9th century who saw numerical perfection in Allah.

I have studied history and known quite well the horrors and atrocities that humans have done in the name of religion. I am also wise enough to know that humans do that in the name of various ideologies not just religion.

Your OP only stands for you, and sadly, it is a limiting stance indeed.

[brooklynite]

59. Delighted to know you get so much out of religions you don't believe in...

...for me, the political, cultural, academic and philosophical benefits you refer to came directly for the people themselves, with credit inappropriately given to their respective higher powers.

[TM99]

61. You are artificially stripping away a large part of their self-identity.

Your thinking is little different than a fundamentalist Christian dismissing an atheist's contributions to society solely because of their non-belief in a 'high power'.

Why attempt to re-write history. Religions around the world have shaped our modern world not only for the worst but just as often the better. From the suffragette and civil rights movements to contributions to science, music, and philosophy.

You and the bulk of the new atheist/anti-religionists are foolishly close-minded. I get as much out of those religions as I am willing and open to learn. Because, yes, all politics, culture, academics, philosophy, AND religion are about people. Some are decidedly sick and extreme, and most are not...ever!

[brooklynite]

63. You are entitled to your opinion about me...and I will strongly defend your right to hold it.

[TM99]

64. We are in complete agreement with each other on that point.

I feel the same way.

[Prophet 451]

72. I think "decision" is the wrong word

Very few of us consciously choose to believe or even to choose which faith to follow. Whatever it is that attracts us to a particular faith, that operates at a level far below conscious thought.

[cbayer]

77. I agree with this and think that science will eventually show to what degree

belief is a choice and to what degree it is not.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. I'm not seeing a parallel between sexual identity of any shade or variety, and pretending your

Imaginary friend doesn't want anyone having abortions, or anyone doing any drugs, or women preaching said imaginary friend's 'doctrine', or telling people they are fallen, and sinners, and unworthy unless they queue up in the right chute to receive salvation at only 10% of their income, and oh by the way the building everyone mumbles at the invisible friend inside of, must be tax free.

Not seeing any parallels between sexual identity and any of that other horseshit you just tried to hitch to it.

Humans may well be predisposed to belief in something, but that's as far as you get comparing it to the predisposition of our sexual identity.

[Warren Stupidity]

53. There may be a genetic component to "religiosity".

In fact it would be surprising if there weren't some genetic component. The choice of which religion you believe in however remains simply a choice.

[rug]

56. Then there would likewise be a genetic component to irreligiosity.

Which is much different from reason.

[Act_of_Reparation]

58. Even if there is a genetic compontent to religiosity, it is difficult to eliminate choice...

You're right, but I would go even further than that. Genes don't do terrible specific things. At most, your genes may predispose you to religious belief, like like your genes may predispose you to anxiety or anger. But your genes don't make you anxious or angry, and they probably don't make you believe, either.

[Warren Stupidity]

44. Depends on how they "participate".

There are many forms of religious participation that are despicable. See for example yesterday.

[cbayer]

60. I wanted to note that it is very, very interesting that you have chosen

as your sig line the words of a very religious man. As with many of his lyrics, this one is about his religious journey.

Using it as your sig line would lead one to believe that you do respect his religious choice, not just his right to choose it.

[brooklynite]

62. The song in question dates from before his adoption of islam

I respect his choice to learn more about the world; I respect his right to end up with islam, but I don't respect the religious tenets of the religion he has chosen.

FWIW - a quest for enlightenment and knowledge requires not religious or spiritual element.

[cbayer]

65. Nonsense, he was on a religious journey and it was clear.

FWIW, I think he adopted Islam in a very positive way.

I wonder how he would feel about you using his words while taking your highly prejudiced position towards his religion. It probably would be no more than a gnat he waves away.

[brooklynite]

66. "FWIW, I think he adopted Islam in a very positive way. "

Last edited Sat Jan 10, 2015, 01:02 PM - Edit history (1)

"On 21 February 1989, Yusuf Islam addressed students at Kingston University in London about his conversion to Islam and was asked about the controversy in the Muslim world and the fatwa calling for Salman Rushdie's execution. He replied, "He must be killed. The Qur'an makes it clear – if someone defames the prophet, then he must die."

Newspapers quickly denounced what was seen as Yusuf Islam's support for the killing of Rushdie and the next day Yusuf released a statement saying that he was not personally encouraging anybody to be a vigilante, and that he was only stating that blasphemy is a capital offence according to the Qur'an." -- Wikipedia

I think Cat Stevens is a great singer/songwriter. But his religious adoption seems to fall into the "my religion can't be wrong" camp.

[cbayer]

67. I was not aware of that specific quote, but I think his clarification is important.

Are you going to judge his entire take on Islam on one quote? Do you have more?

It appears that you renounce all religion based on limited data sets that exclude anything positive, which is not unusual in some circles, but is narrow and rather dogmatic.

[brooklynite]

68. "Are you going to judge his entire take on Islam on one quote?"

When that one quote is arguably supportive of death for religious apostasy? You bet.

How many Bible thumping preachers cite scripture that states that gays should be put to death (without, of course, saying it should actually happen)? Do they get a pass as well?

[cbayer]

69. How many Bible thumping preachers cite scripture that supports gays

having full and equal civil rights? Do they get your condemnation as well?

Your brush is broad and your position dogmatic.

[brooklynite]

70. Yep - on issues of death and religious intolerance, I'm as dogmatic as they come.

Many preachers do advocate respect and rights for gays, but not on the basis of scripture.

[cbayer]

71. Religious intolerance? I think that is what you exhibit, no?

You are wrong about the preachers that speak strongly for full equality for gays. Much of it is entirely scripture based.


Same for peace, love, economic equality, social justice, caring for those most in need, and on an on.

Sorry if you missed all that, but that might explain why your views are so, well, intolerant.

[Prophet 451]

73. Can you not even respect them as a motivator?

The best comparison would be if someone was in love. A powerful motivator of behavior, to be sure. But it can't be seen, heard or measured, only felt. Even if you disliked my lover, you would respect the strength of feeling. I would suggest faiths should be respected in the same way and for the same reasons.

Beyond that, fine. Was there any particular reason you felt the need to come into the Religion group and announce that?

[NYC_SKP]

74. There exists a closed-mindedness that exceeds that of religious zealots, I'm afraid.

It is shared among a small but very vocal group of individuals in the progressive sphere.

In actuality, most progressives are very open-minded and would agree with you.

NGU

[brooklynite]

75. I would argue that what happened in Paris occurred precisely because religion was a motivator...

and the religion's adherents, admittedly almost all peaceful, cannot argue, except on a subjective basis, that their interpretation was "misguided".

[MannyGoldstein]

76. I stand with Abe

"When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion."
- Abraham Lincoln