How secular family values stack up

[cbayer]

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0115-zuckerman-secular-parenting-20150115-story.html

By PHIL ZUCKERMAN

More children are “growing up godless” than at any other time in our nation's history. They are the offspring of an expanding secular population that includes a relatively new and burgeoning category of Americans called the “Nones,” so nicknamed because they identified themselves as believing in “nothing in particular” in a 2012 study by the Pew Research Center.

The number of American children raised without religion has grown significantly since the 1950s, when fewer than 4% of Americans reported growing up in a nonreligious household, according to several recent national studies. That figure entered the double digits when a 2012 study showed that 11% of people born after 1970 said they had been raised in secular homes. This may help explain why 23% of adults in the U.S. claim to have no religion, and more than 30% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 29 say the same.

So how does the raising of upstanding, moral children work without prayers at mealtimes and morality lessons at Sunday school? Quite well, it seems.

Far from being dysfunctional, nihilistic and rudderless without the security and rectitude of religion, secular households provide a sound and solid foundation for children, according to Vern Bengston, a USC professor of gerontology and sociology.

more at link

[LiberalAndProud]

1. I think it's important to understand that some of those qualities relegated to religion

need not be.

Compassion, empathy, awe, forgiveness, community, honesty. These are some of those things I speak to my children and my grandchildren about, sans religious overtones.

[cbayer]

2. I think that is the entire point of the article, no?

[LiberalAndProud]

3. It is. And I very much appreciate it.

Thanks, cbayer.

[cbayer]

4. You are welcome. I absolutely agree with this.

I raised my children without religion and they are the kindest, most loving, compassionate people I know…. but I am prejudiced, lol..

[TreasonousBastard]

5. When raising children, how do they respond to...

general ethics and relationship teachings like simply "Don't hate him because he's fat" or "Don't take what isn't yours" and the thousands of other things we try to teach them compared to "Jesus says don't..."

Using religion is an easy way to legitimize teachings without coming up with other explanations, and it has a ready-made menu of ethics, but is it necessary to use it or will kids respond without it? And can you reliably come up with your own teachings?

According to this study, it's fairly easy. Perhaps easier than religious teaching, which often raises more questions than it answers.

[cbayer]

6. Not everyone raises children in a religious household in the way you imagine.

Many teach general ethics and then use religious stories to further explain them or give a different perspective.

While there may be those that just say "Jesus says don't…", I think that for many it is a source of questioning and discovery.

Kids will most definitely respond without the religious, aspect, imo. But there is nothing here to suggest that those that use a religious approach do a worse job.

[TreasonousBastard]

7. I'm well aware of that and...

I was raised in religious household, but aside from saying grace it was rarely mentioned. I suspect both my parents would have ended up laughing themselves silly if they tried to tell me Jesus didn't want me to fight with the neighbor kid.

I'm thinking more of religion as simply a ready-made ethical structure with the church, mosque, or whatever handling up the religious aspect.

[cbayer]

8. As the article points out, it all comes down to the golden rule.

It doesn't matter how that rule is taught, imo.

As we can see everywhere, religions are open to wide interpretations. To say that there is a ready-made ethical structure doesn't jive with the reality that one church teaches that abortion is murder and another teaches that everyone has the right to their own medical decisions.

I would hope that this article would give the opportunity to say "I'm OK, you're OK".

He does give some study information that would indicate that those raised without religion may show some better qualities in certain areas, but as religion is tied to economic status, one has to always take that into account as well.

[Lionel Mandrake]

10. The study shows among other things that

those raised without religion are relatively unlikely go to prison.

Despite the possibility of confounders like economic status, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that religion is usually bad for children. Whether it's always bad for children has yet to be determined. Teaching children to fear "god" or hell, or that they are inherently evil, is certainly a bad idea.

[cbayer]

11. Actually the study he is highlighting doesn't say that.

He does make reference to some older studies, including the one your reference, but those studies have been challenged.

As you rightly point out, economic status, which is correlated with religiosity, must be taken into account.

There is really no evidence that religion is usually bad for children - none at all. Poverty is bad for children, that's clear.

I agree that there are religious teachings that are pretty evil and a bad idea. There are also secular teachings that are pretty evil and a bad idea. I read this morning an article form the editor of reason.com that was really evil. He's a libertarian who rejects religion completely and a pretty scary guy.

The good news here is that this study show that you don't need god to be good. I think we all believe that but it's really nice to have some data to back it up. It's not necessary to use it as a cudgel with which to hit religion.

[Lionel Mandrake]

14. I agree that bad ideas are not limited to believers.

Most parents want what's best for their children. The problem is that what parents think is best may not be.

It's hard to see what's wrong with prevalent views on child rearing. It's easier to see what was wrong with earlier views.

For example, people used to say without irony: "Spare the rod; spoil the child". Beating children with belts, paddles, switches, sticks, etc. was once the norm but is now considered child abuse. The once popular song "School Days" includes these lines:

"Reading and writing and 'rithmetic
Taught to the tune of a hickory stick ... "

And that was a nostalgic song!

All parents make mistakes, some of which are based on bad ideas. I listed a few bad ideas often held by religious parents (and taught to their children).

[cbayer]

16. I am sure we (or those after us) will look back and see

the bad ideas that we know hold dear.

I was raised on Dr. Benjamin Spock. There is now a lot of data disputing some of his methods.

Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things. Saying that religion is necessarily good or bad for kids has no basis and is only used by those who think they have the way, the one way.

[genwah]

23. The "Golden Rule" is a misquote, supposedly by Jesus.

"Treat other people the way they want to be treated" is from is from

Matthew 7:12

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

The misquote is from Rabbi Hillel the elder, as cited in Pierkei Avot

The comparative response to the challenge of a Gentile who asked that the Torah be explained to him while he stood on one foot, illustrates the character differences between Shammai and Hillel. Shammai dismissed the man. Hillel accepted the question but gently chastised the man:

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn"

Hillel makes more sense to me, because I'd like someone to give me a million dollars, but if I HAD a million dollars, I'd rather keep it. OTOH, I'd rather not have a bunch of misguided loons yelling at me while I'm escorting a woman into Planned Parenthood, so...

[cbayer]

24. I'm no expert, but I thought some version of this could be found in all the

major religions.

I think it's a good guideline for life and has served me well at times.

The million dollars example is interesting. I don't think I would want someone to give me a million dollars, but if they did, I would likely give much of it to others. I like the "Pay it Forward" concept as well.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. It can be found in eastern philiosophies that are older than christianity.

Way to give credit where it's due.

[genwah]

27. Oh, yeah! I don't spend the money I have now. With $1M, there

would be some progressive Democratic-wing-of-the-Democratic party primary challengers to some of our crappier local/state/federal DINOs. Or maybe I'd buy a radio station in Iowa to broadcast Stephanie Miller, Democracy Now and a bunch of our people. Or a national organization to do sstuff like this; http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2015/01/14/377033772/philadelphia-pizza-lovers-pay-it-forward-one-slice-at-a-time

You wouldn't want someone to give you a million bucks? Really?

Show me the money!

[cbayer]

28. Good causes.

I have this superstition about unearned money. Did you watch Lost by any chance? The Hurley character won the lottery and nothing but terrible misfortune followed.

[genwah]

32. I get that; lottery winners don't tend to do well. And there are the Koch brothers

as well as Paris Hilton. But I'm broke now, if I got $1M I wouldn't have it for long anyway.

P.S. Never watched Lost, I burned my TV a long time ago.

[cbayer]

33. I would enjoy distributing $1M though.

Yeah I watched Lost on discs and have extremely limited TV. These days I am watching Spanish soap operas and game shows to improve my language and discs of the movies nominated for the Oscars.

[AtheistCrusader]

9. Once again, not true.

You just have to look for studies on it, is all.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/scienceonreligion/2013/06/how-criminals-use-religion-to-justify-their-crimes/

[kwassa]

17. News flash: Criminals use everything to justify their crimes.

Of course! The criminals are not responsible for the crimes they commit. Everyone else is forcing them to commit these crimes!

[AtheistCrusader]

18. OR

(if you bothered to read any of the studies on this) religion doesn't make people more moral/less criminal.

[kwassa]

19. Does atheism or secularism make people more moral? Show me the study on that.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. There are studies on the Percentage of people of each faith or non-faith in prison.

But I suppose that leaves open the possibility that atheists (0.02% of the prison pop.) are just very successful criminals.

[kwassa]

21. Thank you for not answering my question.

Because there is no such information.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. I'm not aware of a study that addresses that specifically. I do know we fuck better though.

http://www.ipcpress.com/index.php?id=42

Or rather, we have a better time/feel better about fucking.

But when I see a study that specifically addresses your question, I'll come back, I have a bookmark.

[Neon Gods]

12. I was raised in a fundamentalist home

Screwed me up for years and now I have little to do with my family. I don't think child abuse is too strong a label for the lies and myths that I was taught.

[cbayer]

13. There is no doubt that some flavors of religion can really screw people up.

But it's not unique to religion. Lots of things can screw kids up.

I am sorry for what you went through and hope you fully recover.

[Neon Gods]

15. Recovery was relatively quick

The hardest part was accepting that my parents were wrong and that they would never accept my rejection of their beliefs.

Thanks for your concern.

[underpants]

26. Excellent article

to you for posting this

[pinto]

29. Good piece. My first hand experience is primarily my nieces.

All would probably identify as nones. Some straight, some gay, some married, some single, some with kids, some solo nesters. Some have a few bucks, some scrape by.

All leading interesting lives, building their futures with a good dose of compassion, empathy, humor and resilience. As I become a fledgling elder of sorts in the family I just look at them and grin.

That slice of the future that I'm most familiar with looks good.

And none discount religion out of hand, per se. For what it's worth. Though all have pointed opinions on some aspects of religious doctrines.

[cbayer]

30. Things have changed so much in our lifetime, haven't' they?

While families were so homogeneous from a religious perspective when I was a child, now there is so much diversity. My family includes atheists, christians, muslims, buddhists and lots of "nones". Now jews or hindis yet, but that would be wonderful!

[pinto]

31. Yeah. Haven't they?

One niece, definitely a none, was married with a good friend officiating. A UU or Episcopalian minister, forget which, and incidentally a lesbian. My niece did the whole nine yards - white flowing dress, a veil. Her beau was in a tux, sort of western style. The ritual was very familiar. The closing statement brought it into a new focus. The minister said "I now present to you all, (her name) and (his name), partners in life and love. Go in peace."

They blended tradition with their world. Lol, they are all stage performers at times. It was pretty neat.