Four ways to react to Pope Francis.

[Htom Sirveaux]

A. Unreserved support (he's clearly been misinterpreted on occasion by people with agendas).

B. Praising him when he says something you agree with, and criticizing him when he says something you think is wrong (even people who aren't right about everything can be important allies on issues where there is agreement, but that shouldn't shield them from deserved criticism).

C. Unreserved hostility (although he sometimes says right things, that deserves to be minimized so the issues where he's wrong can take center stage as much as possible).

D. Ignore him as much as possible (in the grand scheme of things, he's not as important as others make him out to be).

Where do you fall on this spectrum, and why?

6 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	A
	0 (0%)
	B
	5 (83%)
	C
	0 (0%)
	D
	1 (17%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[cleanhippie]

1. I "agree" with much of what he says.

But his words mean little when the actions and policies of the church he is in charge of are contrary to what he says.

Action, not words.

[Laf.La.Dem.]

2. I do not see how you can not vote for B!

[trotsky]

3. Pardon me, but why does someone deserve "praise" for embracing some basic human rights?

And in the grand scheme of things, who cares whether anyone on an anonymous Internet message board praises or criticizes anything?

[Htom Sirveaux]

10. How come you didn't vote for "C"?

Combining your response here with the threads you've been posting about the Pope and free speech, you've just done what that option says.

[trotsky]

11. I didn't vote because your poll is lame.

The things the pope is wrong on (reproductive choice, equality of the sexes, LGBTQ rights) he is VERY wrong on and has enormous power to affect people's lives.

Will you answer my question now?

[Htom Sirveaux]

12. No, because your question assumes that I've already stated that he deserves such praise.

and further commits the false dilemma you mentioned down-thread by implying that "he deserves it" would be the only reason to praise him.

I can think of at least two other reasons to praise people even if you think they "don't deserve it": to use their example/authority to persuade people who do admire the person, and to encourage the person to agree with you more in the future.

[trotsky]

13. Oh well why didn't you say so?

I was not aware that the pope reads DU and would be encouraged if I praised him for agreeing with me on occasion.

That certainly changes everything. Only a stupid hateful horrible person would choose anything other than B, right?

[rug]

42. An unsurprisingly evasive answer.

[hrmjustin]

4. I praise him when he is right and say he is wrong ehen he is wrong.

I haven't read the news about him yet but judging by the fact there are multiple pope threads here on him, he must have made some news.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. That's not *exactly* how B is worded...

You're begging the question of whether what you think is right is actually right.

[cbayer]

5. This seems like a no brainer for any thinking person and

should be applied to everyone, not just the pope.

Unreserved support and unreserved hostility are the tools of fundamentalists and those who wish to divide. The inability to see shades of grey is dangerous and can even be pathological.

Ignoring him is an option, but he does carry some weight and is a fairly powerful international figure.

[trotsky]

6. Ah, I see.

Any "thinking person" should choose option B.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
a type of informal fallacy that involves a situation in which only limited alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. Tell me how you feel about the leader of the Klu Klux Klan when he says it's a nice day outside, and

it is in fact, a nice day outside?


I wouldn't be rude enough to call you a fundamentalist, if you reserved outright hostility to him in any/all circumstances.

[Not Me]

7. As an excommunicated (former) Catholic

my issue with the man is that he doesn't fully understand, or is afraid to use the power that he has.
He makes statements and then backtracks when the sparks fly.

He is king. Catholic dogma clearly states that in matters of faith, he is infallible. End of story.

Perhaps he just hasn't built the trust he needs in his food tasters.

[Htom Sirveaux]

8. It seems to me that the main job of the Pope is to preserve the unity

(whether actual or just appearance) of the Catholic church. Change anything too quickly (or too contrary to powerful agendas within the church), and the whole thing falls apart.

What are your thoughts on that as a former insider?

[Not Me]

14. OVer the years, that has probably been the case

But in the 21st century change happens much more quickly and I think most Catholics are much more liberal and conscience-driven than many people admit.

It would definitely require a Machiavellian approach, make your enemies early and (especially in the Catholic Church) they will come around to accepting them as time passes.

I think he sees his role as testing the waters and getting the church prepared for major change in the next 20-50 years.

[Htom Sirveaux]

15. Does that mean that there are a lot of Catholics

who have more in common with liberal Protestants than they do with conservative Catholics, in your view?

[Not Me]

40. Recent polls

have put Catholics (in the west anyway) at odds with many of the Church's teaching. Birth control, same sex marriage, women's rights and roles in the church, the handling of abuse within the church. So, yes, I would day personally their feeling reflect a much more liberal side of the church.

[cbayer]

9. I think you correctly reflect the tricky political position

in which he finds himself.

I don't believe in his infallibility and see his position as totally political. He is a human with a tough job.

But I do think he has some fear that keeps him from being bold at times.

[pinto]

20. From what I've read of the man I'd guess he would choose B in this poll.

I doubt even he ascribes to the infallibility doctrine. Agree with the comments above about the political aspects of his position. Both internally, within the church bureaucracy, and externally in the world at large. I wouldn't want to be him or in that position, by any means.

He sure seems to "get" the media coverage the position draws, though. Got to give him that. I've never seen so much coverage of a pope since John XXIII. How that plays out, we'll see.

[edhopper]

18. I did not realize

there were only four ways to react to this Pope.

Guess I'll have to rethink my views to fit your limited choices.

[cbayer]

19. What other way(s) would you suggest?

[edhopper]

21. The spectrum of only four is inane.

Views on the Pope can be much more nuanced.

I can disagree on most everything without being hostile for instance.

I don't do polls that decide what I should be thinking.

[cbayer]

26. I think B pretty much covers all the grey areas.

Your stated position would be B, because you said "most everything" which leaves the door open for support.

I do agree that the word "hostile" would have been better left off.

What is fascinating is that there are clearly people here profoundly in the C position, but they won't say it out loud. It's more a poll on group dynamics than anything else.

[edhopper]

28. And if i think he says something right

but also think it's just lip service?

The poll is bullshit and designed to put people who mostly criticize the Pope into a pigeon hole.

Of course B is the most acceptable, the Poll was written for that purpose.

I really don't have more to say about this.

[trotsky]

37. Thank you, ed.

You have stated it very well.

[edhopper]

25. I would suggest not doing a poll and just ask people

this poll stinks of an agenda.

[cbayer]

27. It may be agenda driven, but he is asking people.

What is obvious here is that expressing any support at all can lead to derision and pile ons. While, imo, B is the most logical position to take, it is likely to evoke the strongest reaction. Kind of ironic, no?

You can always vote not to choose or not vote at all and still express your opinion.

[Htom Sirveaux]

22. Yup, only four. Now you know!

[edhopper]

24. Which Gif should i use for your poll?

"Lame", "Face Palm" or "Fail"

[Htom Sirveaux]

30. My poll is more nuanced than you give it credit for...

...since it wasn't "how much do you agree with Pope Francis?" Rather, I'm looking at how how people react if they agree with him on at least some things, but not on others.

[edhopper]

31. No

it's just not.

I can only think this "although he sometimes says right things, that deserves to be minimized so the issues where he's wrong can take center stage as much as possible" and be unreservedly hostile?

I know a push poll when i see it Jocko.

Think I 'll go with;

[img][/img]

[NeoGreen]

23. D: "...in the grand scheme of things..." (nt)

[HockeyMom]

29. D. as a former Catholic

nothing has changed only the way it is worded. Non-Catholics do not have to pay any attention at all to what he says.

[Htom Sirveaux]

39. That's what I hear from conservative Catholics on the radio, too.

They think the media just likes Francis more than they liked Benedict.

[Humanist_Activist]

33. Bullshit push poll, would option B be reasonable to people when its targeted towards David Duke? n/t

[pinto]

34. "Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll"

I'm glad Skinner, EarlG and Elad chose to add this tag line for DU polls. It's a good reminder - it's an internet poll. No more nor less.

[Htom Sirveaux]

35. If you're comparing the Pope to David Duke,

isn't that option C?

I find it interesting that this the second time in this thread that the Pope has been implicitly compared to a leader of the KKK, but some still think that "unreserved hostility" is an unfair characterization.

[Humanist_Activist]

36. I have a question for you, is homophobia and misogyny as bad as racism, yes or no? n/t

[Htom Sirveaux]

38. Certainly, but isn't the comparison still an expression of unreserved hostility?

People keep saying "push poll, push poll", but the only justification so far is that they don't want to be thought of as hostile. But if Pope Francis is as bad as they say, shouldn't they be proud of being hostile to him?

[Humanist_Activist]

41. Actually, you are correct, I'm changing my vote. n/t

[Lordquinton]

43. Nice pop quiz

You have one "right" answer and and three clearly wrong.

What are you really asking?